Raw Fruitarian...good god, help me

[PrimalWolfbane]

And try to contain your laughter. Sigh. I have no idea how I bought it either, honestly.

After a year of being fruitarian, I have just the inkling of a suspicion that my B12 levels are practically nonexistent. Granted, I was having deficiency symptoms at a level of 300, as well. Does raw paleo raise these levels? Can cooked paleo do the same? (Give me a little breathing room here, I prefer to transition to this raw meat thing slowly.)

If anyone has knowledge of the stupid-ass raw fruitarian diet (yes, I'm angry), can you please answer why I am getting headaches, sinus pressure, and neurological symptoms of B12 deficiency when I eat cooked foods, even lightly steamed foods? This seems to be true of all animal products, as well. However, almost raw (runny yolk, firm whites--this is almost raw for me) eggs make me feel fine. Are there any specific foods that I should eat to increase B12, if anyone might have experience with this? Also, I hear dairy has helpful probiotics to improve my gut function (which is clearly able to process meat very poorly right now), and have found this to be the case, but the sinus pressure and congestion is just hell--worst headache I've ever experienced in my life, tbh. Is dairy necessary, a bad idea, or eschewed in favor of a better choice for probiotics? Maybe green juices...?

I am beyond thankful for this forum...I am at the end of my rope, and hopefully not also my life.

[cherimoya_kid]

Well, lots of us bought it, too, so...learn to be more evidence-based, recognize your own gullibility, and don't kick yourself too hard.

I would avoid dairy, except fermented grass-fed raw dairy, and even then, use it only in moderation. 

I would seriously suggest some mineral supplements, specifically bone meal and healing clays like Pascalite or Terramin.

You would probably also benefit from a vitamin D-3 softgel, like the Now brand.  If you try and don't see benefit in a few days, don't keep taking it, but it really helps some people.  Sun exposure is also, of course, a source of vitamin D as well, but I don't know if that's practical in your situation.

Try to get enough fat, and try to eat fermented foods, to replenish your gut bacteria.

Generally, fatty wild-caught fish is a good food. Try some of that.

[goodsamaritan]

I tried fruitarian for 2 months as well.
My system couldn't take it.

[Iguana]

Are there any specific foods that I should eat to increase B12 (…) ?

Try especially  liver, oysters, clams, tuna fish, sardines and more generally all animal foodstuff, all raw of course. It should bring you B12 level back to normal without any other more or less artificial supplements. Avoid all dairy products.  

Welcome here !

[TylerDurden]

Cooked meats contain some B12 levels, but much less than raw meats. Also, depends, of course, on how much the meat is cooked, the more it is the lower the nutrient levels.

[goodsamaritan]

For B12, in my experience with my wife, raw liver and raw clams.

Raw clams are easy, get live ones.  Smell each one before you eat.  Anything that stinks you throw away.

Raw liver, if you are a first timer and need some "encouragement", you can make raw liver pate with chopped raw onions, chop the liver in cubes and remove stringy stuff before putting in blender.  My wife liked that stuff.

Also for B12 is your body consumption of it.  You should be sleeping well, sleep before 10pm every day.  Some people have B12 deficiencies from lack of sleep, lack of rest, anxiety.

[PaleoPhil]

Good B12 raw foods:
pastured egg yolks
pastured liver and certain other organs
wild fatty fish: sardines, mackerel, salmon
wild shellfish: clams

Good probiotic raw foods:
raw fermented honey
raw, naturally fermented sauerkraut (cabbage)
aged meat, high meat, stinkfish
"raw" fermented cod liver oil (it is centrifuged, though)

More controversial probiotic foods that some people do well with:
naturally fermented kimchi
naturally fermented coconut water vinegar
truly raw fermented aged sausages (they tend to be tough and dry and harder to digest than other raw meats)
raw kefir
raw quark
raw aged and/or fermented cheese
century eggs
really ripe fruit

[PrimalWolfbane]

Wow, thank you everyone!

I should probably mention that I am not able to stomach very much right now--and have hypochloridia, so I am trying to understand how this can be corrected. It is most likely causing my digestive issues. Would anyone know of any foods that require acid digestion and can thus elevate stomach acid levels? The pills are absolutely worthless for me.

I tried cooked liver today, and felt absolutely horrible afterward. Why would this be? It was a very small (about 1 oz) piece. Lightly cooked (runny) yolks with cooked egg whites tend to be okay for me, as well as yogurt and kefir, but both dairy products (as well as cheese or aged cheeses) give me terrible congestion. It seems to be difficult to find cow's dairy raw here. Very small fish is also okay for me, but I have a shellfish allergy. Oh, and I'm also wondering if a bit of high sodium caviar would be okay to add instead? It's the only kind I can find around here.  Urgh. The horrible part is that I'm *craving* meat like no tomorrow...but just can't eat it, regardless of tastes or any preferences, really.

Would it be better to eliminate the cooked aspect and go straight into raw, right now? I am worried my liver may not be functioning well, since I have elevated liver enzymes constantly, but the doctor apparently thought it was minimal at my last test 6 months ago. There are arguments that raw meat with immune or liver or kidney problems may not be such a great idea...but my body can't even seem to handle cooked food at this point.

Again, thank you so much. The list of fermented foods sounds amazing, but I'm not sure where to find all of these. Can honey be fermented at home? Sauerkraut is delicious, but I am wondering if the added sodium is a bad thing? I'm sorry for the abundance of questions!

Also...should add that the only meat I can actually stand the taste of is eggs lightly cooked or veal, but veal doesn't seem to want to cooperate with my digestive system. Does taste change with time, hopefully? Maybe the fact that I can only get grain finished beef, chicken, and pork here is the problem.

[Iguana]

Would it be better to eliminate the cooked aspect and go straight into raw, right now?

Yes, definitely. Read  http://www.reocities.com/HotSprings/7627/ggindex.html and don't hesitate to ask questions here.
Try to find proper eggs, meat, fish, avoid all dairy and any stuff having been heated over 40°C.

Take the smell of everything, taste what smells attractive and eat whatever you like as long as it is raw and paleo.

Cooked liver always smelled and tasted awful to me, but at last I found raw wild boar liver delicious, starting with very small amounts that grew larger over time.

[PaleoPhil]

Sea salt produces hydrochloric acid and thus elevates stomach acid levels. Hypochloridia (too little stomach acid) and B12 deficiency are both symptoms of pernicious anemia, which may be linked in part to vegan diets (http://www.netdoctor.co.uk/diseases/facts/anaemiab12.htm, http://www.cqfz.net/articles/pernicious-anemia-and-the-lack-of-b12.html), or at least exacerbated by them, and which famous raw vegan fruit fanatic Durian Rider (Harley Johnstone) has, interestingly.

Oh, and I'm also wondering if a bit of high sodium caviar would be okay to add instead?

Given that you have low stomach acid, that might actually be beneficial for you.

The horrible part is that I'm *craving* meat like no tomorrow...but just can't eat it, regardless of tastes or any preferences, really.

I'm not clear on why you can't eat any meat? Do you have trouble digesting all cooked and raw meats?

Would it be better to eliminate the cooked aspect and go straight into raw, right now?

Sure, why not?

I am worried my liver may not be functioning well, since I have elevated liver enzymes constantly, but the doctor apparently thought it was minimal at my last test 6 months ago.

If he did, then what is the problem? Do you not believe him? Didn't he give you the test results for you to see yourself?

There are arguments that raw meat with immune or liver or kidney problems may not be such a great idea...

The existence of arguments is not the same thing as evidence or facts. Focus on the facts and investigate yourself.

Can honey be fermented at home?

Possibly, but I tried and failed, so I buy it.

Sauerkraut is delicious, but I am wondering if the added sodium is a bad thing?

Why would it be bad for you when you told us that you have hypochloridia? Wouldn't that make it good for you?

Does taste change with time, hopefully?

Many people report it does and it has for me, albeit slowly at times, depending on the food.

Maybe the fact that I can only get grain finished beef, chicken, and pork here is the problem.

I find that grass finished meats taste substantially better than grain finished, though it did take a little getting used to at first.

[PaleoPhil]

Here's another fruitarian who fared poorly:

Severe ketoacidosis secondary to starvation in a frutarian patient.
Nutr Hosp. 2010 Nov-Dec;25(6):1049-52.
Causso C, Arrieta F, Hernández J, Botella-Carretero JI, Muro M, Puerta C, Balsa JA, Zamarron I, Vázquez C.
Hospital Universitario Príncipe de Asturias, Alcalá de Henares, Madrid, España.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21519781

Abstract
The present paper presents the first clinical case of a patient suffering from Frutarianism a new "Eating disorder" and severe Ketoacidosis. The life-style feed strictly only on fruits (not even other vegetables, since plant death is necessary previous consumption).This behavioural alteration frequently leads to starvation and the subsequent Ketoacidosis due to starvation.


Fruit and ketoacidosis
SATURDAY, SEPTEMBER 3, 2011
http://www.ketotic.org/2011/09/fruit-and-ketoacidosis.html
One more reason to go easy on fruit. You might end like this guy.

[cherimoya_kid]

God, what a mess.

[Löwenherz]

Here's another fruitarian who fared poorly:
..

The devilish thing with fruitarianism is that you can feel AND look AMAZINGLY good, like never before in the first weeks of a fruit only diet. And if furthermore all long-term health problems magically disappear its hard to resist the temptation to believe that fruitarianism is the holy grail of humankind. This happened to me in the late nineties and I (like many others) needed YEARS to realize that fruit is actually harmful to my body and that just NOT EATING shit plus eating healthy animals is the secret of longterm health and happiness.

The effects of long-term fructose consumption are absolutely disastrous. The aging process is tremendously accelerated.

I have build up my own collection of shocking case examples.

Durianrider still looks relatively good (apart from his emaciation and mental disorder). In a few years things will change dramatically.

Here is one example. Look closely at the skin of this man:

http://vimeo.com/11986168

Löwenherz

[zbr5]

This man looks unhealthy and very unhappy. And he looks I guess 15 older than he really is.

[whatever]

I'm an ex-raw-vegan. Start easy with the meats just raw-beef will do nicely lots of B12's try to find grass-fed (no worry about a little fat, more fat is good). You can dry it for a day or 2 in the fridge if you like (no sealed bag! just open piece of meat) it gets a nicer taste. Try raw-organs if you are more experienced. Take little steps in about 2 weeks your body is adjusted to raw-meat.

[KD]

Surely these symptoms could be mitigated by small amounts of animal foods. I mean ALL vegan diets deficient in animal food and b-12 must suffer such problems right?

heres one perspective from 38 year vegan and 36 year raw foodist Brian Clement.
http://youtu.be/465aSTfYw_4

"[fruits] take out massive amounts of nutrients and prematurely age a person"

So I guess its not totally normal for vegans or omnivores that have never smoked cigarettes to look as if one smoked 3 packs a day for 2 lifetimes.

http://www.ketotic.org/2011/09/fruit-and-ketoacidosis.html

Normally, it takes weeks or even months for malnutrition and micronutrient deficiencies to start to appear. The fact that it only took him 1 week to develop ketoacidosis reflects that this patient had severe macro and micronutrient deficiencies developed over the time. This is important because some people think their diet is OK because they feel normal, while there is a severe underlying subclinical nutrition deficiency.

As Löwenherz  points out..the mental and weight thing as well as agitation seems to be so ubiquitous, and with so many excuses given that its literally the new "Emperors New Clothes". Unfortunately it seems only to be visible to those who are either totally skeptical of natural health, or those that take such scientific or anthropological literature seriously, or has the first hand experience with such diets and the diets that truly bring what even common people would recognize as health.

Its blatantly obvious that many people can be eating upwards of 7,000 calories of fruit and not gain fat or muscle and can only be hidden behind bogus theories.

Whatever is shown on paper, the issue with raw sweet fruit is either not digesting them properly (in which they ferment, even before digestive fermentation of carbs), not absorbing the nutrition supposedly on paper, or just feeding fungus or other internal interactions which causes all kinds of problems and decay...so healthy tissue cannot be built at all (skin, hair teeth) or serious long term repair, never mind add healthy fat needed to remove modern wastes or add serious muscle effortlessly. Of course this also means premature degeneration and cellular starvation. People with the most 'pure' preexisting health of course will have the least problems with fungus or other internal crap but still the inevitable decay that goes with that type of metabolism and excess.

Like a fancy gun in an all out gang war, These particular issues are not addressed by the addition of any other thing - even nutrient dense animal foods - but a complete reassessment of what a healthy diet looks like.

[RogueFarmer]

I had never read the Wai diet, but I was eating sort of similiar, though with cooked meat and raw milk. Sometimes brown rice cooked in meat broth and coconut milk.

Anyways, yeah, fruit was by far the staple of my diet. I was aging fast, getting wrinkles. My teeth felt like they were crumbling. I feel like I managed to reverse the damage however, feel way better than I can ever remember now.

I can't say exactly how long I was eating high fruit, but I took it to extremes last year from June through August when I finally gave up and basically ate as much raw dairy as I had been eating fruit and even less fruit than I had been eating dairy. Results were staggering. Getting on the Primal Diet has been really key for me though IMO.

[Löwenherz]

..
heres one perspective from 38 year vegan and 36 year raw foodist Brian Clement.
..

Hi KD,

is Brian Clement is a 'real' raw foodist? As far as I know he eats cooked grains on a regular basis.

By the way: Have you understood his dietary concept? He recommends LOW sugar + LOW fat, all VEGAN, if I remember correctly. Makes no sense, right?

Löwenherz

[Löwenherz]

Here is another shocking fruit disaster:

http://foodnsport.com/assets/images/articles/interviews/DougGraham/Doug.jpg

Enlarge the photo and look closely at his skin. On this picture he is round about 55 years old! His skin is destroyed by all the sugar (glycation). BTW: This picture is taken from his own website.

I really wonder what Doug Graham thinks when he looks in a mirror. Our skin is the biggest organ. His diet destroys not only this organ.

Löwenherz

[Löwenherz]

This man looks unhealthy and very unhappy. And he looks I guess 15 older than he really is.

Hi, Greetings to Poland!

I guess you know Jan Kwasniewski?

Look at HIS skin at age 70+

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ss3JlY_4X_w&feature=related

His diet consists mainly of cooked eggs, butter and fatty pork.      (due to cooking not really recomendable IMO)

His face might be a little bit porky   but much better than the two faces above, right?

Löwenherz

[KD]

Hi KD,

is Brian Clement is a 'real' raw foodist? As far as I know he eats cooked grains on a regular basis.

By the way: Have you understood his dietary concept? He recommends LOW sugar + LOW fat, all VEGAN, if I remember correctly. Makes no sense, right?

Löwenherz

Yeah I wasn't really putting him up as a figurehead of good health or any other thing. I've never met Clement and in another discussion could point out some personal criticisms but it is my experience almost all cooked vegans I've met - even those that abuse processed foods - seem to fare better long term than high fruit dieters. I think animal nutrition and fats in a proper diet can keep skin and hair and teeth intact and healing as well as build healthy muscle and fat - but not as part of an unhealthy diet - and by this I don't mean cooked complex carbs of HG's or even modern people. I think what Clement shows of use to me in his research of 10,s of thousands and his own experience...is that - that choice to be vegan is less worse than others choices to eat lots of sugary fruits. That also he can maintain some sense of health and physique (likely only by eating cooked foods). Basically that going without animal foods has less consequences on such things..so when looking at fruitarians one can't blame their problems completely on lacking this or that.

If one takes a simplistic assessment of how 'natural food' is consumed and assimilated without any possible internal problems of course it makes no sense that diets high in cooked starches and other plant foods could either supply more nutrition or cause less problems than high fruit diets, yet examples of this are everywhere in the current world to see as well as ancestral diets and diets of HGs. People can question HG diets all they want in terms of health perfection..but obviously these people did not destroy or lose their teeth, hair and have awful skin prematurely, nor do even the majority of people (of course there are lots) that eat what even they would accept as awful nutrition.

The vegan 'high fat' diet is indeed something of a myth. Since all plants contain carbs..its basically extremely unlikely to impossible to construct a ketogenic diet of all plant foods unless its almost entirely oil. Plant fats are high in minerals but tend to be mediocre for energy in comparison to animal fats. Eating a low fat low sugar diet seems impossible, and eating as a vegan even more a pain in the ass (I've tried) But some people can pull it off at least by fudging terms somewhat. Eating low sugar (by this he means mostly carbohydrates from non 'sugary' sources (things like mostly sprouts, vegetables and some grains or roots ) still manifests as a high carbohydrate diet..of which I don't think he claims not to promote.

[Löwenherz]

Yeah I wasn't really putting him up as a figurehead of good health or any other thing. I've never met Clement and in another discussion could point out some personal criticisms but it is my experience almost all cooked vegans I've met - even those that abuse processed foods - seem to fare better long term than high fruit dieters. I think animal nutrition and fats in a proper diet can keep skin and hair and teeth intact and healing as well as build healthy muscle and fat - but not as part of an unhealthy diet - and by this I don't mean cooked complex carbs of HG's or even modern people. I think what Clement shows of use to me in his research of 10,s of thousands and his own experience...is that - that choice to be vegan is less worse than others choices to eat lots of sugary fruits. That also he can maintain some sense of health and physique (likely only by eating cooked foods). Basically that going without animal foods has less consequences on such things..so when looking at fruitarians one can't blame their problems completely on lacking this or that.

If one takes a simplistic assessment of how 'natural food' is consumed and assimilated without any possible internal problems of course it makes no sense that diets high in cooked starches and other plant foods could either supply more nutrition or cause less problems than high fruit diets, yet examples of this are everywhere in the current world to see as well as ancestral diets and diets of HGs. People can question HG diets all they want in terms of health perfection..but obviously these people did not destroy or lose their teeth, hair and have awful skin prematurely, nor do even the majority of people (of course there are lots) that eat what even they would accept as awful nutrition.

The vegan 'high fat' diet is indeed something of a myth. Since all plants contain carbs..its basically extremely unlikely to impossible to construct a ketogenic diet of all plant foods unless its almost entirely oil. Plant fats are high in minerals but tend to be mediocre for energy in comparison to animal fats. Eating a low fat low sugar diet seems impossible, and eating as a vegan even more a pain in the ass (I've tried) But some people can pull it off at least by fudging terms somewhat. Eating low sugar (by this he means mostly carbohydrates from non 'sugary' sources (things like mostly sprouts, vegetables and some grains or roots ) still manifests as a high carbohydrate diet..of which I don't think he claims not to promote.

Yes, yes and yes, I totally agree.

Obviosuly Brian Clement is not living what he is preaching. BTW: He is fat.

Nevertheless I don't question the possibility that a green juice cure with sprouts or something similar could be useful for many sick and overweight people.

Löwenherz

[zbr5]

Hi, Greetings to Poland!

I guess you know Jan Kwasniewski?

Look at HIS skin at age 70+

His diet consists mainly of cooked eggs, butter and fatty pork.      (due to cooking not really recomendable IMO)

His face might be a little bit porky  but much better than the two faces above, right?

Löwenherz

Hi L. Yeah, there are some people in Poland that eats so called "optimal diet" that is based on Kwasniewski's revelations.
They eat lots of meat and eggs but as you said it is either cooked or fried.
The problem is that the leader of this organization changes every few years because they all die at very young age.

It is surprising to see that his face looks much better than two faces above! It makes me realize frutarianism is a real danger

[Iguana]

The problem is that the leader of this organization changes every few years because they all die at very young age.

LOL ! 

It is surprising to see that his face looks much better than two faces above! It makes me realize frutarianism is a real danger

- Yes, veganism and fruitarianism are a real danger. The opposite may be dangerous too, we don't really know yet.
- You can't tell by the look of the face, people feeding on cooked junk often have a good looking face but are overweight and many get seriously ill or suddenly die early. 

[cherimoya_kid]

LOL ! 
- Yes, veganism and fruitarianism are a real danger. The opposite may be dangerous too, we don't really know yet.

It works for the Eskimos.  However, I think it's mainly a cold-climate diet, and I really doubt ZC is practical for most people in warmer weather.