Slanker's sprays pesticides on their pasture

[00nightstorm]

I wonder what they use for worming.  Here is the response to the enquiry by Ted Slanker:

"We work with many ranchers and we're all of the same mind set.  We are concerned about what we raise and we all eat our own meats.  As ranchers, we must be economic.  To do that requires inputs that usually include fertilizers, herbicides, worming of the livestock, etc..  Fertilizers are in no way something we should be worried about since the better the grass quality the healthier the cattle and the better eating they are.  Herbicides are also quite safe.  Some are so safe that they can be applied while cattle are in the fields!  Herbicides are targeted to particular toxic plants  (at least the cattle won't eat them) and only those plants recognize them.  Also, applications are very small such as one pint of 24-D per acre -- a minuscule level.  In addition, most have very short half lives.  In rotational grazing operations most pastures are at rest (no cattle) and that's when they are treated so by the time the cattle come around there is no trace of the herbicides.  This is a very brief explanation.  The real science of it all is far more complex.  If we get into discussing toxicity then it becomes even more complex.  In terms of toxicity drinking a couple cups coffee may be more dangerous than anything we do here.

The entire ag chemical industry is totally focused on the idea that the end product will be consumed by the general public.  Yet we hear virtually nothing about people getting sick from ag chemicals, but they are all getting sick from 100% organic things (all the time) such as bacteria, viruses, fungi, molds, and from eating grains and other foods that man should never eat.  In most cases people blame ag chemicals on ailments they get from mycotoxins.  The mycotoxin load in our foods is huge -- totally dwarfing ag chemicals.  Mycotoxins have very long half lives and they cannot be destroyed by washing and cooking.

I eat our meats because I know there is no problem in terms of poisons."

Ted Slanker

[KD]

If I had learned the news without his explanation I would been less put off. I agree in a sense that eating some food contaminated with pesticides is better than being organic and fed poor diet or just plain eating a poor "organic" diet. Other than that everything else seems to be contaminated with ag mouthpiece.

[RogueFarmer]

2,4-D is one of the two components of Agent Orange. Herbicides are mutagens. They may not kill grass or animals but they still have similar effects as does radiation. Radiation and herbicides are proven harmful, but cases of people dieing from either are rare. Generally people don't handle uranium or wash their hands with herbicides either.

Correct me if I am wrong with this next point, but aren't herbicides responsible for gender bending endocrine disruptors?

Wormers are not only toxic for the animal and for the soil, they aren't needed for healthy stock who will get by without them better and they aren't even very effective. Copper sulfate (the blue crystals they use to treat pools) combined with dolomite and vitamin C is a more effective, cheaper and less harmful alternative to synthetic wormers.

"Fertilizers are in no way something we should be worried about." Give me a fucking break idiot. It's true that some fertilizers might be good. However, fertilizers are mostly used to increase yield, not to increase quality of grass. Fertilizers increase the size of plants, but most of that size is being made up out of excess water. Organic produce can have half the water content of conventional produce. That's why it tastes so much better. Do I really have to explain Liebig's barrel to this guy?

I feel bad for this misguided gentlemen, because he thinks he is being economic. Really he is hurting his pocketbook. He believes the lies spewed forth by big agri, he would probably make more money if he didn't use any of that junk and trust me, all of it IS JUNK.

He may be right of the harm caused by mycotoxins, however he is ignorant of the fact that his practices likely help to proliferate mycotoxins.


If people are interested in contracting high quality, transparent production of grass fed meats, Without any of that junk, in the state of Ohio, contact ME.

I am no nonsense, I believe in producing the most high quality animals possible. I am open to suggestions or directions... I can grow anything you might want. Of course you will have to pay a bit more than slankers, but I don't think a lot more. Perhaps less if you pick up the animal alive. Most farmers will be happy to sell you a line of bullshit, I am not one of those people.

I have been studying organic agriculture like nobodies business for the past 5 years, been conducting my own practice for 3. Hit me up if you like! Peace.

[miles]

Nice reply spacecowboy. I hope you're able to make mutually beneficial transactions with many people.

[Dorothy]

Now I wished I lived in Ohio or there was another just like you near me in Texas Spaceboy.

[RawZi]

Other than that everything else seems to be contaminated with ag mouthpiece.

    Lol agreed, and with the rest too.  Pesticides are the last thing I want in my food production. 

He may be right of the harm caused by mycotoxins, however he is ignorant of the fact that his practices likely help to proliferate mycotoxins.

    Thinking the same thing.  He doesn't make the connection.  Unfortunate.

    I haven't eaten Slankers yet, and now I think that I know I won't.

[Löwenherz]

"...As ranchers, we must be economic.  To do that requires inputs that usually include fertilizers, herbicides, worming of the livestock, etc..
...Fertilizers are in no way something we should be worried about since the better the grass quality the healthier the cattle and the better eating they are.
...Herbicides are also quite safe.  Some are so safe that they can be applied while cattle are in the fields!
..."

Thanks, I wouldn't buy ANYTHING from these people, let alone food.

Löwenherz

[RogueFarmer]

It's funny though, I kind of agree with KD. If I didn't grow my own food, even though they aren't organic I would have considered buying from them. However that kind of propaganda just pisses me off.

[KD]

In most situations..places like WF that sell grass-fed beef to NZ lamb are either labeled pastured, grass-fed, 100% grass-fed. Occasionally the beef is also labeled organic. If its is not also labeled organic...you have to check the specific farm to find out what their policies are. Some farmers might just not have the organic certification but if they are larger operations (like many of those for WF) perhaps they have the same mindset as Ted. Most of the small farms I buy from have not labeled their meat organic in addiion to grass-fed. Nothing to stress about about per se, but its just very likely the grass-fed animals people get (when not buying slankers) have some of the same issues.


Just in terms of personal preference, their beef usually doesn't taste great to me, buffalo even worse. Some of the other stuff is great and I'll probably still do some orders and weigh the consequences - in comparison to the other stuff I have accesses to. I admit I also like chatting with the old Texas ladies that call me sweety.

[ys]

wait a second....  so a deer knows not to eat poisonous plants and cows/sheep are too dumb to tell the difference?   do i understand it correctly?

[RogueFarmer]

Among poisonous plants, there are those that are mildly toxic and there are those that are extremely toxic. Most plants have some degree of toxicity, though grass is generally very low in toxicity, clover being much higher. Depending on what foods are available to eat, toxic plants can become a problem. Sometimes early in the season, the toxic plants can be some of the first to sprout, they might not even be toxic when they sprout. Then either the animal is forced to eat a toxic plant because nothing else is available or the animal is eating the toxic plant that hasn't yet become toxic, then after the plant becomes poisonous, the animal may be poisoning itself without realizing it because it had become used to eating the plant!

Deer will eat poisonous plants. I have heard that deer meat in the winter in some parts is no good because they deer are eating pine and rhododendron (a very toxic plant that can even make honey toxic).

Animals are smart though. If options are available to them they generally will not kill themselves. Sheep are a bit dumber than cows and goats, they are more likely to kill themselves randomly. Sometimes there is a nutrient or mineral the animal is desperately in need of that the animal eats the poisonous plant regardless of the toxicity. Usually, especially goats but also cows and sheep, will eat just a little bit of a poisonous plant and move on. Toxic plants can actually be good for them! In fact, I would venture to say that probably one of the big reasons why farmers may have bad parasite problems is because they killed all the toxic plants that help their animals to deal with parasites!

Animals use plants as medicine, they can treat themselves if there is enough available to them. They are REALLY REALLY smart. They can taste and smell the nutrition and minerals that they need. They also remember the places where they found food that that they needed and they return to those places again and again. They practice true Instincto when they are in a farm that simulates nature.

Poisonous plants can be an issue for farmers, but treating poison with poison... reminds of "two wrongs don't make a right".

[Projectile Vomit]

For all toxins, including those in plants, the dose makes the poison. Many plants that are lethal when eaten in large quantities can be non-lethal and even medicinal when eaten in small quantities. Most wild animals know this, and will intuitively limit their consumption of plants that could be lethal in large quantities. Domestic animals, for reasons I don't understand, have often lost this ability. Cows and sheep are the best examples, while goats seem to have more of their original instincts remaining.

This, in my opinion, is a really important reason to eat wild meat because in addition to the protein and high omega-3 fats you also get all of the plant medicines that the animal ate. In raised animals, even cows that are 100% grass fed, their diet is not very diverse and they get to eat very few herbs that might have medicinal value. So the meat won't have the same nutritional and medicinal value as that from a wild animal.

This also works for people. I, for instance, eat poison ivy throughout the year in small quantities. Its primary medicinal benefit is that eating it in small amounts makes me immune to the oil, which usually causes severe contact dermatitis in most people. Before I started incorporating it into my spring and summer diet, I would have horrible reactions to the plant and had to go to the doctor on a few occasions for steroid prescriptions to get the rashes under control. Now, even after severe exposures, I rarely get more than a tiny, tiny reaction consisting of perhaps one or two pinhead-sized blisters, which heal in a day or two.

[Dorothy]

I've been putting off for some unknown reason in myself ordering from Slanker's. The thing about Slankers that I can't find anywhere else so far is that they have ground meat with the organs in it. This at the very least I need for my old rescue dogs that are missing teeth. I can add in powdered bones but I need ground meat. I have found organic grass-fed ground meat to buy that I eat but without the organs it just won't do for my dogs and I can't stand the taste of the organs alone so was hoping I would be ok with them ground up in the Slankers meat. I'm not up for grinding myself. Even with the pesticides, it's still the best I've been able to find.  

Hey Spacecowboy - you wouldn't be able to grind up meat and organs, freeze it and ship it like Slankers does would you?

[RawZi]

deer knows not to eat poisonous plants and cows/sheep are too dumb to tell the difference?

    Seems cows know Genetically Modified Organisms are second rate foods. 00:20-00:49
http://vimeo.com/22416828

[RogueFarmer]

For all toxins, including those in plants, the dose makes the poison. Many plants that are lethal when eaten in large quantities can be non-lethal and even medicinal when eaten in small quantities. Most wild animals know this, and will intuitively limit their consumption of plants that could be lethal in large quantities. Domestic animals, for reasons I don't understand, have often lost this ability. Cows and sheep are the best examples, while goats seem to have more of their original instincts remaining.

This, in my opinion, is a really important reason to eat wild meat because in addition to the protein and high omega-3 fats you also get all of the plant medicines that the animal ate. In raised animals, even cows that are 100% grass fed, their diet is not very diverse and they get to eat very few herbs that might have medicinal value. So the meat won't have the same nutritional and medicinal value as that from a wild animal.

This also works for people. I, for instance, eat poison ivy throughout the year in small quantities. Its primary medicinal benefit is that eating it in small amounts makes me immune to the oil, which usually causes severe contact dermatitis in most people. Before I started incorporating it into my spring and summer diet, I would have horrible reactions to the plant and had to go to the doctor on a few occasions for steroid prescriptions to get the rashes under control. Now, even after severe exposures, I rarely get more than a tiny, tiny reaction consisting of perhaps one or two pinhead-sized blisters, which heal in a day or two.

It's not just instinct. The animals LEARN what to eat. If you confine cows to a pasture of nothing but grass and clover, they will never learn to eat weeds. You can teach cows to eat things that they normally wouldn't eat, like thistle. Start with cows trained to eat out of a pail, pick thistle and feed in the pails coated with molasses. Slowly take away the molasses and just feed thistle. Suddenly you have cows that like to eat thistle. Animals learn from their mothers what is good to eat. There are cows out there that have never tasted grain and will refuse it if offered to them.

I have watched my cows eat raspberry leaves, ash trees, cherry trees, ferns, sorrel...

Another factor however is that cows are designed to eat grass. That's their staple. Goats are designed to eat woody shrubs and sheep are designed to eat broad leaved herbs. There are reasons why sheep have it worse than cows and cows have it worse than goats when figuring out poisonous plants. I am really not sure what those reasons are. Something about goats isn't totally domesticated. It's known among goat people that you must never lose a fight with your herd sire, because if you do there is the possibility that your hole heard can turn back into the wild.

I don't think there is any wild game that puts on fat like a beef cow or sheep does and in my book that makes both of them nutritiously superior in that department. Also, in the U.S. deer get fed lots of corn and soy by hunters and wild boar and bear and most vermin eat all kinds of garbage and maraud conventional farms. If you are lucky enough to live in pristine wilderness, then more power to you.

Also, in U.S. deer are overpopulated and often not very healthy, I have helped slaughter a deer that was absolutely COVERED in keds, have heard of deer covered in ticks. My goats never have more than a few ticks or a few keds.

Masanobu Fukuoka said something along the lines of "to my horror I discovered that nature was no longer truly natural, and humanity no longer truly human".



Dorothy, I wouldn't worry so much about feeding your dogs slankers, I highly doubt it's going to hurt them. I don't think it would hurt us most likely either, however I just don't agree with their practices, I would want to support farmers who use practices I believe in. Some people, especially youngsters or those with chemical sensitivities, may be harmed by slankers. It is probably almost totally impossible to quantify what harm could be done to them.

[ys]

so you say goats would be the most easiest animal to raise?
wild bison gets pretty fat end of summer.

[Iguana]

Thanks for your posts, and especially your last, Spacecowboy. It's good to have here people with valuable knowledge and experience such as yours.

[Dorothy]

"Dorothy, I wouldn't worry so much about feeding your dogs slankers, I highly doubt it's going to hurt them. I don't think it would hurt us most likely either, however I just don't agree with their practices, I would want to support farmers who use practices I believe in. Some people, especially youngsters or those with chemical sensitivities, may be harmed by slankers. It is probably almost totally impossible to quantify what harm could be done to them."

Yes Spacecowboy - the best we can do is the best we can do - for us and for the dogs. I just wish I could find a farm like Slankers that is grass-fed AND organic that grinds, includes organs and ships.

Now in Texas almost no one is capable of grass-feeding only fresh grass to their herds any more in this drought anyway. I will have to check to see if Slankers is having to supplement hay now. I'm sure they are. That should be taken into consideration. In a drought like this most farmers have no choice but feed hay and how that hay was raised is going to be suspect at slankers I now realize. The hay might have more pesticides and herbicides than he himself puts on the fields that his cows normally eat from. Most cattle farmers are having to buy hay from other farmers that are watering their hay crops.

[RogueFarmer]

so you say goats would be the most easiest animal to raise?
wild bison gets pretty fat end of summer.

If you have plenty of land, goats might do well. Typically goats do better in dryer conditions, cows in wetter and sheep in between. Of course there are breeds of each species adapted to vastly different climates all over the world.

I think cows are the easiest to take care of for sure. However if you have open scrub land and no need to worry about fencing and not that much grass, then goats are the obvious choice. Cows need grass. Goats can thrive without grass.

Bison may get fat compared to other game, but they are definitely leaner than beef cows. I remember the African Hob was a game animal with lots of fat. Beaver and bear and raccoon are all also loaded with fat. Not sure about groundhogs but I bet they are too. My father said once he skinned a raccoon he said was actually mostly fat!

"Dorothy, I wouldn't worry so much about feeding your dogs slankers, I highly doubt it's going to hurt them. I don't think it would hurt us most likely either, however I just don't agree with their practices, I would want to support farmers who use practices I believe in. Some people, especially youngsters or those with chemical sensitivities, may be harmed by slankers. It is probably almost totally impossible to quantify what harm could be done to them."

Yes Spacecowboy - the best we can do is the best we can do - for us and for the dogs. I just wish I could find a farm like Slankers that is grass-fed AND organic that grinds, includes organs and ships.

Now in Texas almost no one is capable of grass-feeding only fresh grass to their herds any more in this drought anyway. I will have to check to see if Slankers is having to supplement hay now. I'm sure they are. That should be taken into consideration. In a drought like this most farmers have no choice but feed hay and how that hay was raised is going to be suspect at slankers I now realize. The hay might have more pesticides and herbicides than he himself puts on the fields that his cows normally eat from. Most cattle farmers are having to buy hay from other farmers that are watering their hay crops.

Hay fed cows means more omega 6 and less omega 3.

Farmers using truly sustainable practices MAY not have to feed extra hay. There must be people in Texas using Holistic High Density Grazing methods. I am going to make a thread about that when I get around to it.

Thanks for your posts, and especially your last, Spacecowboy. It's good to have here people with valuable knowledge and experience such as yours.

No problem, this is what I truly care about!

[Dorothy]

Spacecowboy - I have not found one farmer using high density grazing thus far and the problem is that this year has not been the ordinary. It's not like people were trying to bring back desert land - the land was very lush and this year weather patterns created a record drought and high heat. The farmers all went from a lush landscape to complete browness and dead plants in one season. 

I'd love to hear what you have to teach on high density grazing. That's a fascinating subject. Makes me wonder if the high density grazing was used it would have made a difference.

[RogueFarmer]

I have to take a couple steps back and say that I am no expert in this field, merely a student. HHDG is a goal of mine, not something I have achieved.

I have a fistful of personal farming experience and two arm loads of book smarts on the subject.

HHDG would completely annihilate any of the problems associated with drought. Plants with 17 foot long roots don't worry so much about a lack of rain.

[Dorothy]

17 foot roots? Do grasses have 17 foot roots ever? I'm not trying to be snide, I'm just confused. Most of the trees will survive this drought because of their root systems but not many plants are even capable of having 17 foot roots when there is a solid block of limestone underneath the thin soil which is the situation where I live. Most of the trees in Texas put out wider roots than most other places as well. You know how in most places the root systems are as wide as the spread of the leaves? Where I live the diameter of the roots are usually twice what the diameter of the spread of the branches.

I've been thinking on this much lately with the drought here and wondering if there could be different farming practices that would prevent the widespread decimation that is occurring at present with small farmers. Land is now getting cheaper too because many are losing their farms. I am also quite a novice and would love to be able to figure out if high density grazing would work in the limestone country of Texas where grasslands usually flourish if we are moving into a period of extreme drought in the future.

I know that you might not know the answer Spacecowboy - I sure don't. Sure hope you have thoughts on it though as a handful and an armful are more than I have

[ys]

i think there are shrubs that can have these long roots.  something similar to shrubs that camel eat.

[RogueFarmer]

Grass roots can't penetrate limestone but 17 feet is not at all impossible. Alfalfa can go over 20 feet deep.

Regardless, where grass is grazed too frequently the roots rarely go further down than the grass is high. Still, HHDG should help improve conditions in almost any situation. It's just making farming more similar to natural prairie systems.

[Dorothy]

I think I'm going to ask on my local Weston A. Price group board if anyone knows of a farm that does high density out west where most of the arid lands are and the soil is the thinnest. They might know. I agree Spacecowboy that it would have to be at least better. I just wonder if the limestone would allow for the same amazing results they get in Africa and places where the land is sandy.

Bushes I would imagine also could get those roots down there through any nook and cranny. There are bushes here that grow in pure rock! But ALFALFA can have 20 foot roots. Wow. Cool. Some of the big tall grasses here back when there were bison herds might have had really deep roots too even through the hard clay and rock maybe. I wonder.