Weston-Price

[TylerDurden]

I was recently editing wikipedia and, in the process, looked up various studies and articles mentioned in New Scientist and elsewhere. Here is a standard article on how the advent of cooking led to smaller teeth(although, admittedly, other claims such as more processing of raw foods, and other non-dietary claims exist):-

http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn7035-human-dental-chaos-linked-to-evolution-of-cooking.html

There's plenty more scientific data around to back this up, such as evidence that teeth-size/jaw-size decreased during the Palaeolithic, especially the very last bit of the Palaeolithic, after cooking got started. The idea is that, normally, defective people with weaker teeth would have died out due to natural selection, but that once cooking got started, such people did not die out and could go on breeding, thus leading to weaker teeth in future hominids from then on.

I will concede there is one interesting, albeit disputed, claim:- Australian Aborigines have much larger teeth than Caucasians and others - this has been claimed to be due to their largely (mostly cooked-)palaeo diet until their recent conversion to Western diets.

[RogueFarmer]

Are you sure Aborigines in Australia eat mostly cooked? Could this not be a modern thing? It seemed to me that on walkabout it wouldn't be very easy to start a fire in the desert. I read the book Mutant Message Down Under. I can't remember precisely but I don't think I ever remember her mentioning that they cooked their food or ate it raw. They were out in the middle of totally desolate desert though and I really can't remember her mentioning them building fires.

[TylerDurden]

They do eat some foods raw, but only things like live grubs.

[RogueFarmer]

What reason is there to not eat a Kangaroo raw? I find it hard to believe. I ate fresh raw goat organs on a whim, with only vague knowledge of eating raw meat and that it was dangerous and that you should freeze it for 14 days if you were going to eat it.

I just read on Ask.com a guy claiming to be an Aborigine that his ancestors ate raw meat but they don't anymore.

Highly saturated kidney fat from the possum was often eaten raw

Animal foods were generally cooked, either over an open fire or steamed in pits. Kangaroo, for example, was laid on a fire and seared for a short period, so that the interior flesh remained practically raw

http://editor.nourishedmagazine.com.au/articles/australian-aborigines-living-off-the-fat-of-the-land

They talk about them having trouble getting enough fat. Isn't there plenty of fat in bone marrow?

I wonder why they cooked most of their meat.

I remember reading that Native Americans ate a heck of a lot of raw animals.

I kind of thought they got more interested in cooking meat, cause they ate dogs and dogs eat human shit.

[RawZi]

    I ate steak from a raw kangaroo.  Admittedly it was frozen first, but no other preparation.  It didn't taste bad at all, much better than raw venison or raw beef.  I've never had frozen raw beef or frozen venison.  Anyway, I bet the Aborigines ate most of their kangaroo raw.  Is the tail fatty?

[cherimoya_kid]

I was recently editing wikipedia and, in the process, looked up various studies and articles mentioned in New Scientist and elsewhere. Here is a standard article on how the advent of cooking led to smaller teeth(although, admittedly, other claims such as more processing of raw foods, and other non-dietary claims exist):-

http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn7035-human-dental-chaos-linked-to-evolution-of-cooking.html

There's plenty more scientific data around to back this up, such as evidence that teeth-size/jaw-size decreased during the Palaeolithic, especially the very last bit of the Palaeolithic, after cooking got started. The idea is that, normally, defective people with weaker teeth would have died out due to natural selection, but that once cooking got started, such people did not die out and could go on breeding, thus leading to weaker teeth in future hominids from then on.

I will concede there is one interesting, albeit disputed, claim:- Australian Aborigines have much larger teeth than Caucasians and others - this has been claimed to be due to their largely (mostly cooked-)palaeo diet until their recent conversion to Western diets.

Yes, but that doesn't explain the sudden, in-one-generation GIANT increase in crooked teeth that Dr. Price found in groups that had recently switched to store-bought Western foods.

[TylerDurden]

Yes, but that doesn't explain the sudden, in-one-generation GIANT increase in crooked teeth that Dr. Price found in groups that had recently switched to store-bought Western foods.

  That is disputed. Anyway, I think I've made good my point that cooked foods had already led to some considerable deterioration of the teeth.

[wodgina]

    I ate steak from a raw kangaroo.  Admittedly it was frozen first, but no other preparation.  It didn't taste bad at all, much better than raw venison or raw beef.  I've never had frozen raw beef or frozen venison.  Anyway, I bet the Aborigines ate most of their kangaroo raw.  Is the tail fatty?

It's the fattiest part. Kangaroo fat is TASTY! but there is not much on them. Very lean animal.

[cherimoya_kid]

  That is disputed. Anyway, I think I've made good my point that cooked foods had already led to some considerable deterioration of the teeth.

Yes, you definitely have shown that cooking/processing of food has led to smaller jaws/teeth.  The larger teeth/jaws of the Aborigines is excellent evidence of that, as is the fossil record.

However, there's not much to dispute about the sudden increase in crooked teeth in Dr. Price's tribes, unless you think he faked his photographs. It was a LOT harder to fake pictures in 1939.

[TylerDurden]

I don't believe he faked his photos. I just think he cherry-picked only those people who had the healthiest teeth for his photos, nothing more.

[cherimoya_kid]

I don't believe he faked his photos. I just think he cherry-picked only those people who had the healthiest teeth for his photos, nothing more.

OK, what about his statistics, where he clearly states that crooked teeth increased tremendously?  Total fabrication? 

[TylerDurden]

OK, what about his statistics, where he clearly states that crooked teeth increased tremendously?  Total fabrication? 

  There have been all sorts of even eminent scientists who have "adjusted" their statistics to favour their own POV, often without even realising it.

[RogueFarmer]

Yes, but that doesn't explain the sudden, in-one-generation GIANT increase in crooked teeth that Dr. Price found in groups that had recently switched to store-bought Western foods.

Uhm, I think you shouldn't have even brought that up, because that's another issue altogether.

[cherimoya_kid]

  There have been all sorts of even eminent scientists who have "adjusted" their statistics to favour their own POV, often without even realising it.

Yes, but I myself have met Guaymi Indians in the jungles of Costa Rica.  All of them have absolutely beautiful, straight teeth, unusually wide ribcages, and excellent cheekbone and jaw structure.  They just do.  All of them. That's not lies, BS, or theory.  I've been there, spent several weeks among them.   

[RogueFarmer]

His OP said nothing about crooked teeth, only smaller teeth. I have semi crooked teeth, but they are very large compared to most whites. I have seen plenty of people who have straight teeth that are much smaller than mine.

[KD]

Yes, but I myself have met Guaymi Indians in the jungles of Costa Rica.  All of them have absolutely beautiful, straight teeth, unusually wide ribcages, and excellent cheekbone and jaw structure.  They just do.  All of them. That's not lies, BS, or theory.  I've been there, spent several weeks among them.   

I saw a new documentary recently on salt gatherers of Tibet. I'm sure for most people it was incredibly boring...because it went into quite a lot of depth of their day to day routines on their journey to get salt 100's of miles away. In terms of fresh foods, they went in a huge caravan and didn't seem to pick, buy or acquire much of anything on their journey.

They ate mostly soups and teas with some kind of grain food and tons of yak butter of course. If a yak died they would eat the meat, always cooked. Other than that they brought no meats. Don't think I ever saw them eat any raw fruit or vegetable.

Without exception, perfect white gleaming teeth. Some of these folks were in their 70's and perhaps older..still doing tedious manual labor. Virile and happy - even honored - to be spending seemingly ridiculous amounts of time and energy acquiring salt.

I think what I object to with WAP and the like is assuming that if a modern person does what these folks are doing..they will get similar results. I think at the very least with severe poor health OR with trying to correct stuff like teeth there is going to have to be a more aggressive solution. At the same time obviously these people were getting the proper balance of minerals from their (cooked) foods..and avoiding enough of the other toxic compounds (either in cooking OR is improper foods/diets) to avoid degeneration other people are experiencing in the current world - even often on 'pure' diets.

[RogueFarmer]

They probably also drank plenty of raw milk. At least they drank the byproducts of making the butter no? Did they add the butter after they cooked the soup or before?

Out in  the sun, my teeth look gleaming white. Under poor artificial light, the yellow shadows become obvious. It's hard to see how healthy someones teeth are from a video that doesn't show the back of their mouth. There are no visible cavities that other people can see, unless I open my mouth wide and they look deep back inside, then you can see plenty.

Also that trip was just one trip of many in the year no? Depending on the time of year, perhaps they collected other foods or had other foods brought from home to eat.

[cherimoya_kid]

His OP said nothing about crooked teeth, only smaller teeth. I have semi crooked teeth, but they are very large compared to most whites. I have seen plenty of people who have straight teeth that are much smaller than mine.

The discussion isn't about whether crooked teeth are the result of many generations eating cooked food, or the result of switching to Western store-bought foods.  Both are true, both are causes of crooked teeth.

The thing to realize is that tooth size/shape doesn't vary much from generation to generation.  JAW size/shape does vary a lot, if the diet is very different. 

[KD]

They probably also drank plenty of raw milk. At least they drank the byproducts of making the butter no? Did they add the butter after they cooked the soup or before?

Out in  the sun, my teeth look gleaming white. Under poor artificial light, the yellow shadows become obvious. It's hard to see how healthy someones teeth are from a video that doesn't show the back of their mouth. There are no visible cavities that other people can see, unless I open my mouth wide and they look deep back inside, then you can see plenty.

Also that trip was just one trip of many in the year no? Depending on the time of year, perhaps they collected other foods or had other foods brought from home to eat.

heh, well not exactly science...my observation

I can say the film had nothing to do with propaganda, nutrition or teeth, just something that seems to me to be true even in the present when people even remotely close to nature are featured.

Now I do think these people have that leg up..just by living fairly naturally their whole lives..and sometimes never experiencing the worst of crap we do in "the west", at the same time one would expect such miracle cures of raw to ameliorate premature deterioration...certainly not accelerate it more than people eating such a high quantity of cooked foods if that is the case.

I wasn't trying to insinuate these healthy people didn't eat any raw or fresh food (this isn't what WAP says of course). The yak dairy was all raw. I'm sure these people probably ate other things, but the journey was 3 months.

---
The name of the game in teeth seems to be minerals. Also modern stuff and toxins seems to come into play. Shifts by either getting away from traditional foods (those more recent and 'neolithic' or ancient: like RAF) OR eating more than appropriate of this or that food (artificial or natural) seem to be the main culprits.

Ideally one would want to have the balance of getting those mineral dense foods in AND eating our appropriate types and quantities of foods while taking in the least toxic crap. Personally I'm believing more and more these days that eating those mineral rich foods (even those more recent picked up by WAP) can be more integral to maintaining the balance than trying to eat some supposed diet of purity that perhaps either lacks those minerals or contributes to poor internal balance in other ways.

[TylerDurden]

I will concede that tribes with no access to sweets or excess sugar will have better teeth than people in industrialised nations, I just don't view WP's diet per se as helping teeth.

[RogueFarmer]

They might not reverse tooth decay, but they will certainly help prevent it. Of course sourcing him, I believe in one case school children were given one healthy meal a day and their incidence of new tooth decay was greatly diminished.

I wonder, perhaps he felt grains should be included in the diet, because they were so ubiquitous. Could people have afforded to live without grains in their diet back then? Same goes for dairy. I won't make an argument that dairy is superior to flesh, however it makes monetary sense to me, I think it always will, it makes me feel good and I enjoy drinking it.

[TylerDurden]

The Neolithic peoples who switched to eating grains definitely had all sorts of health problems. They fermented the grains a la Weston-Price but that did no good, really.

[cherimoya_kid]

The Neolithic peoples who switched to eating grains definitely had all sorts of health problems. They fermented the grains a la Weston-Price but that did no good, really.

I don't know that fermenting is completely unhelpful, but it certainly can't fix all the problems that grain-eating causes.

Otzi, the mummy found in the ice in the Swiss Alps, was a heavy grain-eater, and had serious teeth problems.  He lived over 5000 years ago.  Here's the wiki:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ötzi_the_Iceman

The interesting thing is that he probably ate lots of wild foods, including meat, as evidenced by his stomach contents.  However, he still had lots of cavities. 

[PaleoPhil]

New Study Confirms Weston Price’s Original Findings
by Ramiel Nagel

Weston Price’s Original Findings

A new study, published in the International Journal of Paediatric Dentistry, has shown a significant increase in the number of dental caries in native cultures that are introduced to fruit juices and sugary foods. The study was based on children in an area of Libya that is being introduced to a more westernized diet. The study took into account the dental health of 791 children that were 12 years of age. The children were screened for presence of dental caries (cavities). Results from the study showed that almost 60 percent of the children examined had dental caries. Conclusions from the study state that;

 “Frequency of consumption of fruit-based sugared drinks was statistically significantly positively associated with experience of caries … Dental caries experience was associated with frequency of consumption of sugared dietary items…” (Huew, Waterhouse, and et al ) ....

More at: http://curetoothdecay.com/blog/new-study-confirms-weston-prices-original-findings/

The link to the study in the article is broken, so here is a working link: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21831127 (Huew, R., P Waterhouse, et al. “Dental caries and its association with diet and dental erosion in Libyan schoolchildren.” International Journal of Paediatric Dentistry. (2011): n. p. Web. 20 Nov. 2011).

Of course, this doesn't necessarily mean that Price was right about everything, but it does confirm the link he made between foods high in processed sugars and caries.

[TylerDurden]

Oh, none of us would dispute that a WP-diet would improve dental health since sweets and sugar surely do do harm, it's just that we do point out that , according to the evidence, harm to dental health occurred well, well before WP-style diets were ever started in any way.