Barefoot Herbalist MH Selling Grass Fed Beef?

[goodsamaritan]

I just visited my old teacher's website and he is selling grass fed beef?

Check it out.

http://www.barefootherbalistmh.com/page15.html

http://www.barefootherbalistmh.com/attachments/File/Herbal_Raised_Angus_Beef.pdf

Lucky for you USA people.

[AwfulRawful]

The largest problem with all mammals is the huge quantities of worms and endless varieties. Little is said about worms in beef as many like to believe using a little commercial poisonous de-wormer will solve all the problems.

I believe worms to be the major cause of all illness, disease and premature death
of every mammal on the planet and the more commercially raised, the larger the
problems and when wrong foods are supplemented, ill health is certain to
become a problem.

in my opinion, everyone of animals raised on any size farm will be loaded with worms
and that goes for every specie of animal, rather it be chicken, beef, pig, etc.

This is right on.

Yet few raw paleo advocates even give lip service in regards to worms in raw meat. It's irresponsible to give un-abashed avocation without consideration for this very real health hazard. Apart from occasional comments about freezing meat, no mention of alternative remedies (such as herbal parasite programs) are even suggested as a friendly precaution.

[TylerDurden]

The anti-parasite hysteria is bogus, so it's not surprising that it is not seriously considered here. The simple fact is that very, very few RPDers get them. When they do, they are nearly always harmless, and can easily be gotten rid of just by getting a doctor's prescription and going to a local pharmacy to get the right anti-parasite drugs. Herbs can do the trick too but one needs high quality unprocessed versions thereof, and often herbal combinations rather than just one herb.

[AwfulRawful]

The anti-parasite hysteria is bogus

Who's hysterical? Not me. Nor are farmers that are aware of parasites being simply ubiquitous in farm animals. It's part of life, and the common way to handle them is to either cook or freeze the meat. Since neither of those methods are advocated here, it seems obvious a cheap home remedy alternative is called for if the benefits of eating raw are to be enjoyed freely.

The simple fact is that very, very few RPDers get them. When they do, they are nearly always harmless ...

Harmless? If you knew of a 30 foot tape worm residing in your intestine, would you just let him be? Besides, if there is even a 1/1,000 chance of catching a harmful parasite, like say one that can take up residence in the human liver or kidneys, wouldn't it be responsible to at least suggest an easy method of prevention or cure in the off chance of infection?

It's an apparent double standard that fear mongering towards Vegans with topics like 'Tropic Ulcer' are tolerated, yet much less far fetched are simple roundworms and tapeworms that continue to persist in the general population despite meat being frozen and/or cooked. These pests are easily handled, and yet I surmise, you wont even entertain their existence out of fear that it might scare people away. After all, by today's standards, eating bloody red meat is drastic enough without also suggesting that this lifestyle is a much increased risk for harboring worms. If the benefits of eating such a way do in fact bear fruit, people will gladly accept the consequences of such a lifestyle even if it means adding some preventative maintenance to their daily routine. There is no need to shield them from the potential downfalls, doing so would only potentially do more harm than good.

Herbs can do the trick too but one needs high quality unprocessed versions thereof, and often herbal combinations rather than just one herb.

You make it sound oh so difficult, when if fact all it takes is a few potherbs and stuff you can buy at the local supermarket . Prescription drugs on the other hand are costly and only target 1-2 parasites, while herbal combinations are capable of wiping out basically the entire spectrum of worms very quickly. Some single herbs, such as wormwood, are capable of singly-handedly killing and preventing worms if taken on a regular basis. Go ahead and mention the junk science revolving thujone if you will. BTW, absinthe is legal in this country again, albeit at non-medicinal doses.

I believe worms to be the major cause of all illness, disease and premature death of every mammal on the planet

That's quite a claim, however he is not alone in his hypothesis. American Indian's all over north and south America regularly underwent parasite programs as a method of cure as well as prevention. Also, it's worth noting that the women responsible for harvesting wormwood in it's vogue days in France, had an uncanny history of living past 100.

[goodsamaritan]

I am well aware of parasites and am armed to the teeth against parasites.

I am not afraid of tapeworms.  I had Tapeworms coming out of me December January.  I drank humaworm.com and did other methods and got rid of them.  They were cute while they lasted.

These are modern times rawfulawful, raw paleo dieters are not afraid of parasites because this is the 21st century.

Raw vegans and fruitarians are wrong on all counts... we should know our parasites, and I know eating raw meat from ruminants and ocean creatures are great for me and my children.

[TylerDurden]

Who's hysterical? Not me. Nor are farmers that are aware of parasites being simply ubiquitous in farm animals. It's part of life, and the common way to handle them is to either cook or freeze the meat. Since neither of those methods are advocated here, it seems obvious a cheap home remedy alternative is called for if the benefits of eating raw are to be enjoyed freely.

Well, that's not true, for a start. Farmers are indeed terrified of parasites(and bacteria/illnesses). This is partly because of government-sponsored hysteria which leads to calls for  huge culls of entire herds if even one animal is affected no matter how small (such as in the whole BSE crisis) - also, since most farmers have seriously inbred cattle due to artificial insemination and very sickly cattle with low immune systems  due to feeding them on grain-heavy diets all the time, this means that they panic every time just 1 animal is affected by disease or parasites, no matter how minor the problem. No wonder, they religiously vaccinate the cattle.

Harmless? If you knew of a 30 foot tape worm residing in your intestine, would you just let him be? Besides, if there is even a 1/1,000 chance of catching a harmful parasite, like say one that can take up residence in the human liver or kidneys, wouldn't it be responsible to at least suggest an easy method of prevention or cure in the off chance of infection?

You don't know what you are talking about. I do.   After nigh on a decade of eating raw wild game in huge quantities(raw wild game is supposed to be infested with parasites), I only once got infected by a tapeworm. I will admit it (probably?) caused some temporary pain in my bladder, which was highly unusual an occurrence during a parasitic infestation. This pain went away after 2 days after which I had tapeworm segments appearing regularly in my stools, often in huge clumps. Tapeworms are, notoriously, almost always completely harmless in effect, according to the literature, and, from that point on I never had one single negative symptom therefrom. I kept at it for some length of time as it was a most unusual experience and I wanted to see if the anti-parasite hysteria  had any validity - it clearly didn't. Anyway, in the end, the tapeworm segments became a rather unaesthetic nuisance since small amounts of them came out  frequently the other end not just when I (very rarely) farted or had a bowel-movement, but at other times as well. Not pleasant finding little smelly bits of them in my underwear so I  got rid of them after a period. However, this was not due to their affecting my health, they were fine in that regard, it's just that by that point I was so full of them, that the segments came out too often. If they had only appeared during bowel-movements or farting, I would not have minded them at all.

It's an apparent double standard that fear mongering towards Vegans with topics like 'Tropic Ulcer' are tolerated, yet much less far fetched are simple roundworms and tapeworms that continue to persist in the general population despite meat being frozen and/or cooked. These pests are easily handled, and yet I surmise, you won't even entertain their existence out of fear that it might scare people away. After all, by today's standards, eating bloody red meat is drastic enough without also suggesting that this lifestyle is a much increased risk for harboring worms. If the benefits of eating such a way do in fact bear fruit, people will gladly accept the consequences of such a lifestyle even if it means adding some preventative maintenance to their daily routine. There is no need to shield them from the potential downfalls, doing so would only potentially do more harm than good.

I am not shielding them, I simply point to my own experience of eating huge amounts of raw wild game  over most of a decade and only getting harmless tapeworms once, despite public hysteria damning raw wild game as being supposedly "dangerous" re parasites/bacteria etc.

For a more rational, mainstream view of the benefits of parasites and bacteria, please read up on the "Hygiene Hypothesis", which is now a mainstream belief in scientific circles:-

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hygiene_hypothesis

You make it sound oh so difficult, when if fact all it takes is a few potherbs and stuff you can buy at the local supermarket . Prescription drugs on the other hand are costly and only target 1-2 parasites, while herbal combinations are capable of wiping out basically the entire spectrum of worms very quickly. Some single herbs, such as wormwood, are capable of singly-handedly killing and preventing worms if taken on a regular basis. Go ahead and mention the junk science revolving thujone if you will. BTW, absinthe is legal in this country again, albeit at non-medicinal doses.

I don't actually believe in the thujone myth either. And I took a little wormwood for the first couple of years of my diet, on occasion, until I got over my anti-parasite hysteria. I also used wormwood and other similiar herbs for getting rid of my tapeworms, and they had zero effect on me. A quick trip to the local pharmacy got me some anti-tapeworm drugs which solved the problem within 2 days of taking 2 pills 3 times a day.

[AwfulRawful]

I can see I wont be able to change your mind at this point, so it's useless to belabor. I do think the Hygiene Hypothesis sounds like checkbook science.

Illness is direct cause and effect in nature. Doctors love to convince their patients that their chronic problems are associated with genes or factors beyond their control, so convincing them that they grew up not washing their hands enough fits the bill nicely. I makes for a hypochondriac mindset of a patient. So they reach for the Triclosan* dosed hand soap, hoping to cope with this problem, when the soap and other toxins are likely the cause problem in the first place.

You don't know what you are talking about. I do.

There's a saying amongst mechanics that when the 'warning light' comes on in a car, it's already too late. Costly damage has been done to the vehicle. They affectionately call it the dummy light. If worms are coming out of your ass every time you fart, that's the dummy light telling you that there is a serious problem in your body and damage has already occurred. Early warning signals are often very faint, and just like with cars, people simply choose to ignore them. Had you taken a preventative maintenance precautions, the situation would have never even occurred. As they used to say, An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.

*(Triclosan, which is more commonly used, has been detected in human breast milk, and in 75% of human tissue samples taken, demonstrating widespread exposure. Studies show that triclosan and triclocarban may have endocrine disrupting effects, and in animal studies triclosan was shown to reduce thyroid hormones, which are critical for normal development.)

[TylerDurden]

I can see I wont be able to change your mind at this point, so it's useless to belabor. I do think the Hygiene Hypothesis sounds like checkbook science.

Now, that's truly sad, as , nowadays, the hygiene hypothesis is becoming ever more mainstream in its accepted ideas.

Illness is direct cause and effect in nature. Doctors love to convince their patients that their chronic problems are associated with genes or factors beyond their control, so convincing them that they grew up not washing their hands enough fits the bill nicely. I makes for a hypochondriac mindset of a patient. So they reach for the Triclosan* dosed hand soap, hoping to cope with this problem, when the soap and other toxins are likely the cause problem in the first place.
There's a saying amongst mechanics that when the 'warning light' comes on in a car, it's already too late. Costly damage has been done to the vehicle. They affectionately call it the dummy light. If worms are coming out of your ass every time you fart, that's the dummy light telling you that there is a serious problem in your body and damage has already occurred. Early warning signals are often very faint, and just like with cars, people simply choose to ignore them. Had you taken a preventative maintenance precautions, the situation would have never even occurred. As they used to say, An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.

  The trouble with your above b*llsh*t is that  I did not experience any long-term problems from those tapeworms. So your whole thesis is shattered.

*(Triclosan, which is more commonly used, has been detected in human breast milk, and in 75% of human tissue samples taken, demonstrating widespread exposure. Studies show that triclosan and triclocarban may have endocrine disrupting effects, and in animal studies triclosan was shown to reduce thyroid hormones, which are critical for normal development.)

What possible relevance is the last paragraph? Are you trying to claim that they have anti-parasite "qualities", as a sort of desperate last resort to your argument?

[AwfulRawful]

Now, that's truly sad, as , nowadays, the hygiene hypothesis is becoming ever more mainstream in its accepted ideas.

All the more indication that it's bought and paid for.

The trouble with your above b*llsh*t is that  I did not experience any long-term problems from those tapeworms. So your whole thesis is shattered.

Long term is relative, we'll find out the answer to that when you see how gracefully you do or don't age.

What possible relevance is the last paragraph? Are you trying to claim that they have anti-parasite "qualities", as a sort of desperate last resort to your argument?

Yes, obviously I'm suggesting that a chemical with endocrine disrupting effects is a great anti-parasite. Nailed it.

[TylerDurden]

All the more indication that it's bought and paid for.

  Not at all.  Indeed, there is now a large amount of increasingly mainstream scientific evidence supporting the idea that cooked foods are very harmful to the body. The Hygiene Hypothesis is just one more nail in the coffin as regards the notion that cooked foods are beneficial. What is interesting is that this is all happening despite the fact that the mainstream view of the population is, like your own view, extremely paranoid and phobic towards bacteria and parasites. So, science does not always kowtow to mainstream views, despite your claims.

What is truly sad is that those of us RVAFers who disdain "mainstream science" often end up believing in dud, easily disproven "alternative" theories such as the mercury-in-fish theory, or in the supposed absolute "necessity" of freezing raw meats for a whole 14(!) days in order to get rid of parasites. Such a tragic waste of time and this notion often leads to the unnecessary exclusion of very useful food-groups as well.

Long term is relative, we'll find out the answer to that when you see how gracefully you do or don't age.

That's just paranoid. Whatever the case, I have not experienced any "aging" as a result, no appearance of white hair or whatever nonsense you are suggesting. Plus, I experienced no negative symptoms other than that one temporary, freak accident. It is also telling that tapeworms are frequently reported in the scientific literature as being harmless. Simply put, if those tapeworms had been truly harmful to me, then, obviously, I should have felt, at the very least, slightly healthier, before and after than during the episode - no such thing happened.

At this stage, I am not surprised that you are, more or less, using william's extremely lame "argument", which he used for the mercury-in-fish claims, that if scientific or anecdotal data show no negative effect at all, that the effect must be  so small that it is undetectable, and that "long-term" effects will occur in a few decades. But that is an absurd notion. Plus, highly amusingly, there is an effect called "hormesis"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hormesis

whereby small amounts of a toxin, if below a toxic threshold, often lead to a definite beneficial effect rather than any negative one on a person.

Yes, obviously I'm suggesting that a chemical with endocrine disrupting effects is a great anti-parasite. Nailed it.

Hmm, before you were being all "alternative" and praising herbal remedies against parasites. Quite a turn-around. As for triclosan, given that bacteria and parasites routinely become adapted to every new chemical used against them in time, it won't presumably remain a wonder-drug for long. Also, given triclosan's similiarly harmful effect on bacteria, anybody taking it regularly will presumably harm his/her gut flora. So it's best only taken when one has definite proof of parasites re symptoms.

Incidentally, are you a devotee of Hulda Clark's cult-like following? Her belief is that parasites etc. exist everywhere in the human body and that one must undergo frequent cleanses to get rid of them. A real quack:-

http://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/Cancer/clark.html

[Inger]

Tyler, I cannot help to say,
I LOVE how you tackle this parasite thing. 

(I wonder myself when I will get those parasites but they never occur? I have also eaten raw herring that I recognized later had live worms in it..eh.. but no, I frequently take a look into the toilet after **** but nothing there,
all looks perfectly great )

Inger

[TylerDurden]

Yes, I know, the number of occurrences  of parasite-infestation in the RVAF diet community are pretty low. And these are mostly harmless in effect, just involving them being found in the stools afterwards.

The real danger is if people get too worked up about parasites, supposedly "seeing" them in every stool. That passage I quoted from Quackwatch re Hulda Clark, for example, pointed out how believers in her ideas would mistakenly see so-called "evidence" of parasites in every one of their stools, routinely mistaking citrus peels for parasites etc.!
Also, we all usually go through this parasite- and bacteria-phobia when we first start these raw-meat diets. It's so unnecessary. I mean, when I first started, I would go through an initial phase where I consumed wormwood tincture all the time(that didn't help me when I used it during that 1 tapeworm episode, much later on), I would also eat tons of pumpkin seeds given their supposed anti-parasite properties, and I was deathly afraid that eating any raw meat that was more than a day old would kill me through food-poisoning. Of course nothing ever happened to me, even after I'd cut out all the wormwood/cayenne pepper etc. from my diet.

[Inger]

Yes. I have been eating raw meat for 6 years now. But I too was a little concerned in the beginning - I also made this MSM (Chlorine) cleansing what my dad was really hot about for a while.. heheh. It was told to kill all parasites. Just in case. I got really nauseated from it. I gave it to my husband when he got a little flu and it almost killed him  at least he felt like that. After that I have not touched this stuff anymore. Now - even if it is years ago- I cannot really smell chlorine anymore.

Inger

[cherimoya_kid]

This is right on.

Yet few raw paleo advocates even give lip service in regards to worms in raw meat. It's irresponsible to give un-abashed avocation without consideration for this very real health hazard. Apart from occasional comments about freezing meat, no mention of alternative remedies (such as herbal parasite programs) are even suggested as a friendly precaution.

You're a vegan, aren't you?

Man, can't you vegans go troll barbecuing forums, or something?  We're raw foodists, leave us the fuck alone already.

[Ferocious]

You're a vegan, aren't you?

Man, can't you vegans go troll barbecuing forums, or something?  We're raw foodists, leave us the fuck alone already.

I think he's asking for a ban if he keeps it up.

[AwfulRawful]

You're a vegan, aren't you?

I've never in my life followed a vegan or vegetarian lifestyle. I eat several pounds of meat a week and I enjoy sushi and raw eggs.

It's one thing to be paranoid to the point where you see and fear germs everywhere. Such a state is called being hypochondriac. I'm not a hypochondriac. In fact I currently don't use any soaps or shampoo's on my body because I trust my bodies natural sebum to act as a barrier against infection. All I use is water and a rough hemp sponge to slough away dead skin cells.

Bacteria are low forms of life which are easily handled by the bodies immune system. Except in really nasty situations like when mammals live in and around their own feces, the body generally takes care of itself just fine.

I think it's ironic that Tyler say's he's not afraid of bacteria on meat, and yet supports some theory that says we should be very afraid of bacteria because it can damage our immune system. Which is it Tyler? What is the arbitrary age that we pass in our youth when bacteria transitions from becoming a fearful pathogen capable to crippling our immune system, to forming a beneficial and symbiotic relationship that can actually aid in our ongoing health?

There is no such arbitrary transition because the theory is junk science, it is also completely irrelevant to anything regarding my original statements.

Lets talk about something relevant. The administrator of this website, vouches for a guy who promotes vegetarianism (more accurately frugivorism). Woops.

I don't promote any form of vegetarianism myself. I do however support the concept of occasional fasting and taking herbs in order to help the body in it's ongoing effort to maintain a healthy immune system. This is no way is at odds with following a raw paleo lifestyle.

The administrator of this website (who I have no qualms with) advocates healing terminal diseases with little more than eating raw meat and fruits at the exclusion of other processed and cooked food. Some might consider that to be 'alternative', and by mainstream medical definition, it is.

To address some of Tyler earlier opinions. I find it ironic that he thinks eating raw meat in order to cure cancer is perfectly logical, and yet taking some medicinal herbs as a precaution is quackery. Do you support mainstream medicine or not, if so why advocate such a radical eating habit. Why blame mainstream processed and cooked foods as the cause of disease and then turn right around and support bandwagon thinking. Lets face it, eating raw meat is not mainstream by any standard. Your statements are clearly at odds with each other.

I've read many books in regards to vitamins, minerals and herbs. I wonder Tyler where you're claim of superior knowledge of not cooking is coming from? Have you read a lot of non-cook books? What steps do I need to take before I can safely not cook my meat?

[cherimoya_kid]

You smell like troll to me.

However, to address the actual subject....I'm not against de-worming myself from time to time, including with papaya seeds, coconut, black walnut, etc.. However, you're not coming from a place of knowledge. 

You know who is?  Traditional tribes who've been eating the same meats/fish for thousands of years.  They know which meats have worms, and how to either avoid getting the parasites, or which herbs to take to get rid of those parasites.  You are just fear-mongering...which is sad, because I'd love to hear some traditional wisdom on which seafoods have which parasites, and how to deal with those parasites.

You, however, do NOT possess that knowledge. 

[TylerDurden]

First of all, AwfulRawful(hmm,  if you want to avoid troll accusations, choosing a different name might have been wiser), you have made several false assumptions:  the Hygiene Hypothesis actually focuses on the benefits of bacteria and parasites, not  the reverse. In the case of bacteria, it suggests that, from childhood,  the bacteria merely help prime/improve  the immune system, rather than damage it, and that the reason for modern ill-health is our lack of exposure to bacteria. There is also some focus on the benefits of bacteria in improving mood by influencing serotonin levels in the brain - something many RVAFers have experienced after eating "high-meat", and, of course, focus on the health benefits of gut bacteria.

Secondly, I did NOT claim that herbal medicine was "quackery. I simply stated that herbs did not work for me re getting rid of parasites. Nothing more. I was also somewhat surprised that you were adopting the typical media-inspired scaremongering re bacteria and parasites, yet were willing to try herbs, which are definitely not mainstream in terms of belief.


The trouble is that your claims re raw foods not being mainstream are not quite correct. As I showed in previous times, there is now considerable scientific evidence linking cooked foods consumption to higher levels of cancer and many other diseases.-

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raw_foodism#Potential_harmful_effects_of_cooked_foods_and_cooking

Plus look at pubmed under "advanced glycation end products" and other heat-created toxins to find out more re this.
Now that there are 1,000s of studies done on advanced glycation end products, a type of cooking-derived toxin, and the negative health effects therefrom, it is  increasingly difficult to support the notion that cooking food is beneficial. About all mainstream-opinion scientists can state, these days is that cooking is beneficial re getting rid of parasites and bacteria, but the hygiene hypothesis is debunking that notion slowly - oh, and the notion that unhealthy foods like grains can be improved by cooking.

Another point is this:- If this diet ever gets  fully accepted by the mainstream, we need to use science to back its claims. It´s all very well, for people to vaguely refer to non-science-related books or  to make wild claims about the supposed godlike health of hunter-gatherers, but this will never  really convince most people given that the evidence provided therein isn´t reflected in scientific circles to any great extent.