Advice request for transition and healing ideas

[KD]

I can't seem to eat the bone stock either and I've noted a number of members saying the same thing. I don't get it. I've 'beefed up' teas that I make with mushrooms and herbs with rendered fat (tallow) - which is fairly different - but had basically no real issues with that. I would think the bone stocks cooked at low heat and with a higher proportion of minerals would be easier to digest..or a more worthwhile overall experience anyway. No idea on this one. The actual strait bone marrow seems to be fairly pointless (and ends up gross/liquidy) to cook, but the 'knuckle' bones are sort of difficult to get at otherwise.

edit on above. basically b-12 is now 363 between an ideal range of 200 and 500 when using pg/mL

[RawZi]

I for one cannot eat the bone stock I made. I broke out (haven't done that in ages) and felt sick both times I tried it.

    Do you have a link for which recipe you used?  Were the bones fresh? Frozen?  Did you add anything?  What kind of animal was it from?  What was its feed?

    I have tried others stock, like US Wellness, one tiny taste and I poured it out.  It wasn't rotten, it just didn't taste like food or worth eating, and of course it was expensive.  I tried with various pastured bones.  Seems I can deal occasionally if it's from grass-fed red meated animals (lamb bone, bison bone, beef bone), I only get a lot of inflammation, but no really bad effects.  Bones from white meat, body can't tolerate it, my nose can't even.   

[Dorothy]

I couldn't find a recipe. I made stock twice: once with grass-fed lamb bones and this time with bovine - probably fed crap. I really wanted to try raw marrow and this time they took the whole bone and sliced it for me in a machine so I could get soft marrow. I bought grass-fed bones for marrow before but could get no marrow. I have yet to find any non-frozen grass-fed anything here in Texas as someone explained to me being here in beef country the regulations are tight and they have too easy of access to large slaughterhouses that can take the heat from the FDA and everything comes out of the slaughterhouses frozen. It's just too easy and safe to use what the industry has set up here. It's more like a factory and the ways of the old butcher shop are going away.

All I did was simmer the bones. Later on after tasting how horrific it was I added onion, sweet potatoes and carrots (which helped some) and before eating it added some salt and pepper to help the taste - but still - nothing to write home about.

I loved eating raw marrow right out of the bone (even though it wasn't even grass-fed) and hubbie seems better able to tolerate mixing raw marrow with things than eating the stock. Do you guys think that eating just the marrow will be enough for now? He's on a collagen supplement too. Is it better for us to eat the marrow from not grass-fed than not have any marrow at all?

[Dorothy]

Ok, gotta ask probably what might sound like a stupid question, but how is fat rendered and what's the difference between that and the stuff on the top of the pot? Does anyone ever eat that thick layer of fat or use it for anything except a dog treat?

I'm glad that I'm not the only one that stock makes feel bad. Thanks for letting me know.

[PaleoPhil]

Ok, gotta ask probably what might sound like a stupid question, but how is fat rendered and what's the difference between that and the stuff on the top of the pot?

Remember, Google is your friend.

I'm glad that I'm not the only one that stock makes feel bad. Thanks for letting me know.

I make bone broth. If I heat it too high it makes me belch, so I heat it at very low temps (mostly the warm setting of the crockpot).

[Dorothy]

Maybe I got the heat too high in the process because it was stovetop and not crockpot - but I wasn't going to buy a crockpot if he hated the stuff or we felt bad. Maybe I have to buy one jut to know. 

Google huh? Gonna make me work are ya? Dam - it's cooked fat - when I come to think about it I really should just chuck it.

[RawZi]

Gonna make me work are ya? Dam - it's cooked fat - when I come to think about it I really should just chuck it.

    Make a candle?  I'm not sure how well waxy cholesterol could decompose into compost.  Fats are the best burning material I think.

[Dorothy]

Can you really make a candle out of fat like that? Doesn't it need beeswax or something to keep it's form and not have it immediately melt? I've never made a candle in my life. I guess I would have to google that too! 

[RawZi]

Ah yes - the internal bleeding that you mentioned. You told me that one has to have fat with fish - but never went into this more with me re hubbie - would you please? I'll make sure that every fish sauce has raw egg yolk and every single piece of sashimi has avocado (which we often do because so yummy - but not always).

    I feel best when I eat about 80% or more fat calories to each 20%  or less starch or rather protein calories, of course the protein being flesh or egg-white and raw.  So figure out approx how much protein to fat the fish has, and add fat accordingly, if it works for you.  Fish oils clean us us, no?  Terrestial animal fats nourish us, fuel us differently, and allow us to get strong and repair so that if we go into detox (a cold etc) we are very strong to withstand it.

Does he refuse to eat meat because he loves animals? Have you tried eggs with him yet? -- I know you get those wonderful eggs from the carnivore chickens! How old is he now Zi? I remember your story from way back how sick he was being a vegetarian and how a big part of the reason you moved back to eating animal foods was to save his life. I for some reason thought that was all over with him.

    Yes, he loves animals dearly.  He refuses eggs.  He toyed with the idea of quail eggs.  He says no though.  Yes, we can even get with full blooms now, and they're real chickens, they eat anything they want, lots of bugs, grass, sour milk etc.  He's older.  Yes, no kind of vegetarianism (raw, cooked, whole, macro, ayurvedic, five phase) was enough to prevent his deterioration.  So after a few years I started opening my food possibilities to grass-fed raw never been frozen nor dried animal and wild-caught raw ditto fish. No, he got past vegan and added milk and colostrum and products he makes from them from animals he knows and feels right about, and unheated honey and cut out everything else but organic raw fruit and vegetables (lettuce).  He was cheating with some cooked vegan occasionally at first, but then realized he feels best so far without any cooked, and now plans never to touch cooked again.  I guess he might try a roasted nut once in a year or something like that (perhaps less often etc).    He's incredibly sick, very strange situation, it's not something that just gets over with..       

I wonder if he would be willing to eat bugs from his "ethical" standpoint or if he would be grossed out by that. I keep on thinking that I might try some cooked bugs to start myself out on with it. Does he eat all raw or does he eat cooked foods too? In what ways is he still sick?

    He might in the future, raw.  He loves bugs too, finds them to be fantastic creations/beings.  He may eat them after raising enough generations or in the woods, some way he knows they are clean from any crazy man made food.  It's his actual nerves.  Over time extended to other parts. 

[RawZi]

Can you really make a candle out of fat like that? Doesn't it need beeswax or something to keep it's form and not have it immediately melt? I've never made a candle in my life. I guess I would have to google that too! 

    People used to dip a wick over and over in beef fat.  I've done it.

[Dorothy]

Nerve damage - that's a tough one. Even loves bugs. Sigh. Why not eggs though? Can you get a few chickens without a rooster so that the eggs would never hatch any way and he can treat the chickens really well and eat those eggs? It's gotta be better than not having any source of really good fats for his nervous system I would think. I know it might seem silly to raise inferior eggs to those great fertile eggs you get - but if it's a way to get him to eat them.... Is he an teenager now? He could then handle the responsibility probably.

I've been reading a bit about the nervous system and oat straw tincture is supposed to be an excellent tonic herb for the nerves and quite restorative and it's completely vegan for him. I have some "brewing" now which is ready to be strained and can't wait to try some with hubbie (and I figure it wouldn't hurt to give some to me these days either!)

I'll look up dip wick. Thanks. I'd love to have some home-made candles!

[RawZi]

I'll look up dip wick. Thanks. I'd love to have some home-made candles!

There's a pic here of a woman dipping the wicks in tallow, the old way http://candleandsoap.about.com/od/typesofcandles/g/gldippedcandles.htm

[RawZi]

Nerve damage - that's a tough one. Even loves bugs. Sigh. Why not eggs though? Can you get a few chickens without a rooster so that the eggs would never hatch any way and he can treat the chickens really well and eat those eggs? It's gotta be better than not having any source of really good fats for his nervous system I would think. I know it might seem silly to raise inferior eggs to those great fertile eggs you get - but if it's a way to get him to eat them.... Is he an teenager now? He could then handle the responsibility probably.

    Yes, especially when it's major nerves, peripheral, central etc etc.  He thinks eggs are disgusting to eat.  I'll mention the non-rooster tonight.  He is having butter and cream, but I feel the eggs would help him get more out of the dairy-fat. I  would consider infertile eggs as you describe if it would help him, and I think it would enough.  He will want to spend a lot of time with the animals, but need help too, and he's very sick.

I've been reading a bit about the nervous system and oat straw tincture is supposed to be an excellent tonic herb for the nerves and quite restorative and it's completely vegan for him. I have some "brewing" now which is ready to be strained and can't wait to try some with hubbie (and I figure it wouldn't hurt to give some to me these days either!)

    We've tried oat-sraw before.  I can bring it up again.  Enjoy yours, it sounds fun

[cherimoya_kid]

RawZi, nerve problems are simply not going to get better without loads and loads of fat, particularly animal fat. Period. There's no getting around it. Carbs deteriorate your nerves, and fats rebuild them.  The myelin sheath around each nerve cell is made of fat. I experienced terrible social anxiety and panic attacks after several months on a raw low-fat fruit diet, and they only things that cured it were minerals, especially sodium and calcium and magnesium, and fat.  Lots and lots and lots of minerals and especially fat. 

[RawZi]

RawZi, nerve problems are simply not going to get better without loads and loads of fat, particularly animal fat. Period.

 
    Practically all he eats is butter.  We get lots of Jersey milk every two days.  He skims the fat off the top, and you know Jersey has more fat than other cows.  He makes butter and eats that three meals a day and snacks.  He has some organic fruit and honey with it.  Occasionally the cream with berries, everything raw, trust me.  He's doing better about the more fat too, as he used to use more honey with the butter and cream, but now he uses less honey.  We have a cream separator machine too.  He's very careful that the cream doesn't have milk in it.  Most of the non-fat milk part he either throws in the yard or gives me to bathe. 

[PaleoPhil]

Since this thread is about someone who is still eating cooked foods and might or might not be willing to transition, I'm guessing it should be moved to the hot topics or off topics section.

Maybe I got the heat too high in the process because it was stovetop and not crockpot - but I wasn't going to buy a crockpot if he hated the stuff or we felt bad. Maybe I have to buy one jut to know.

You could try using the stovetop at the lowest setting, I suppose. You could even use a double boiler if that doesn't do the trick. You could also experiment with different lengths of cooking times, different acids to add, such as lemon juice or raw fermented coconut water vinegar, and different herbs and spices. You could ask him what his favorite spices are.

The main alternative to bone broths is eating raw edible bones and cartilage, which are not easy to find good sources of. Some people eat ground up eggshells others are able to buy small dried bone-in fish like anchovies, though they tend to be highly salted. Since you raise your own eggs, you could allow the eggs to be fertilized and then allow the embryos to develop a bit to make mineral-rich balut: Remy Eats Balut (Food Oddities - [url=http://www.foododdities.com]www.foododdities.com)[/url] which is generally cooked, but I wonder what it's like raw. I doubt your husband would go for that, though. Another cooked alternative is to low-slow cook meat with small bones like chicken or quail wings and drumsticks until the bones are chewable and when you make soups and stews, leave the bones in instead of cutting off the meat and just putting that in the pot.

Google huh? Gonna make me work are ya? Dam - it's cooked fat - when I come to think about it I really should just chuck it.

Raw is better than cooked, of course. It's strange, though, that people throw away that cooked fat, but then cook their food in fat. What's the difference supposed to be? I don't understand it myself.

He's incredibly sick, very strange situation, it's not something that just gets over with..

When what the child is doing is making them incredibly sick, then, I know it's not easy and I hope this doesn't sound critical or harsh, isn't it time for the parent to step in to protect the child from their own destructive behavior, especially in this modern world where there are so many ways to go wrong? It wasn't as much of a problem in ancient hunter-gatherer societies, of course, because the vast majority of the available food was quite healthy.

[Dorothy]

Thanks for the ideas Phil. We really are working the best we can towards all raw - as far as I'm concerned, the cooked stuff is a stop gap - trying to get what he needs until we can get better raw versions that are palatable and available enough for us.

I've given up on the cooked stock at this point. I muscle tested both of us for cooked stock in general and it tested weak. Interesting that neither of us liked the smell or the taste. The dogs now will feast for awhile.    My dog with cancer in particular goes mad for the stuff. I'm feeding them the fat too - but one day I just gotta make some candles!

About the taste thing another interesting muscle test was for marrow. I just LOVE the taste and feel of raw bone marrow even when not grass-fed (which is a first for me to feel good from anything not grass-fed) and I tested VERY strong for it and while hubbie didn't like the marrow and he tested weak. I was surprised that marrow was not good for him. 

The muscle testing is becoming a great tool. Hubbie asked if he should get the fish for cooking and I said "Why? We have a source for raw tuna and salmon sashimi.", but what really made the point was I tested him for raw fish and he was strong and then for cooked fish and his arm went flopping down. There is nothing quite like that feeling to get it very strongly into your body/mind what is good and what is not. It's really helping.

The goal is to get all three meals all raw instead of just the two that we have been successful at so far. I've decided to try one of my raw soups and add raw egg to it and see how that is. He is now eating almost raw hamburger 3 times a week and raw fish 4 or 5 times a week, but since we stopped eating eggs cooked at all we haven't been eating enough eggs.

We've stopped buying grains - which is a big, big step for hubbie. I'm very happy about that.

Supplementation and therapies of course are not necessarily raw though and I would love to have any ideas or suggestions in that regard that anyone might think of.

Oh - and Phil - would love to be able to have a rooster but can't do that in this neighborhood - but in the spring I'm going to get ducks because drakes are very quiet so we can have fertile duck eggs! Besides, I need the grass mowed and ducks are great at mowing lawns.   

[Dorothy]

Update - We've incorporated a bunch of things including a homeopathic remedy and supplements but we are now on day 5 of the D3. He sounds better to me! We can't know if it's the D3 or not but the man has researched it thoroughly and is now convinced that it is great for him no matter what. He keeps on giving me little bits and pieces like "Did you know that the New England Journal of Medicine is saying that there are over a BILLION people that are D3 deficient?" and "It can take a long time for someone who is very deficient to rebuild their stores." etc. After he is completely better we will take away the specific allergy supports and see how he does on just the D3. He is also now going to get his D3 levels tested.

So far - so good! Keep the suggestions coming if you have any please. 

[RawZi]

    He is sick Phil. He makes raw butter and acquires fresh fantastic milk and more. That has really helped. I hope becoming a hunter gatherer helps him. He's sick like I said in the previous post and we live in a filthy part of a major city that has traffic every hour of the week. As soon as we can we'll live somewhere he can get live animals besides stray cats, rather than buy our meat. Hopefully then we can make a hunter gatherer environment, rather than me waking to him being yelled at in the middle of the night. In the meantime, he is not well enough to go on hunting trips yet.

[Dorothy]

Zi, would your son ever be willing to ever go on hunting trips with his love of animals? I'd imagine that it would be easier to eat some bought meat than that no?

I'm so sorry you live in that kind of environment. That stress can't be good for him.

Oh - and if it comes down to you helping to take care of chickens - the great things about chickens is that they take almost no care at all. But, if you live in a city there might be regulations or you might not have a yard. But egg yolks have such good fats even if the chickens are given organic, no soy feed and can be made into sauces that don't even seem like eggs. He would probably be able to make them into good pets easily. It's easier in a way to eat eggs after you see how the hens pop them out and walk away. It becomes like if eating a pets poop was really good for you. When not fertile and the hens not broody it seems almost a shame not to eat them or do SOMETHING with them and when it's a pet it starts to seem like a precious gift - a give and take. What affect do you think eating so much butter/dairy without other fats has on him Zi? Does he eat vegan sources of fats like avocados, oils etc.?

Once kids get to be a certain age and are at school or about with their friends, it can be very hard to restrict their diets, especially if the decision is an ethical one.

[RawZi]

    Occasionally he uses stone pressed olive oil and avocado. He feels better with dairy fat, but a little of these are fine. It seems raw egg helps the body deal with fat., not just the Yolk. I like reading your perception and experience with chickens, eggs etc. Are ducks as easy to raise? Would that kind if restrict me as for moving, to a place with a pond/lake?

    Sometimes he says he would hunt. He is definitely so far against he himself eating bought meat. I'm thinking if we lived somewhere conducive to healthy hunting, I may get or he may get peers who would have influence on him to hunt.

[Dorothy]

I say the yolk because it usually tastes better to most people - at least when not fertilized - even my dogs.

I certainly can't talk definitively about ducks since as yet I do not have any, but from my talking with those that do and research certain breeds don't need much in the way of water and all they need is a little kiddie pool. I certainly won't have a pond. I plan on getting some indian runners - great layers, don't fly and are entertaining. Some folks here keep them with their chickens in the coop and no water to swim in at all - but I think even a little bath is kinder. I will be able to tell you all about them in the spring when I get them. Then I will have grass for them and maybe, hopefully, some rain and bugs. I have sworn not to get any more fowl until I have my black soldier fly and other bug production systems up and running so as not to have to buy much of any food. But, in a pinch, with a sick kid, feeding store-bought feed is a real breeze. These animals aren't like our indoor pets. Let out of coop, give food and water. Put food in coop at night to get them in, close coop. Pretty darn easy if you have a fenced-in property.

[RawZi]

  I know fencing is important. Another concern.

    Kiddie pool, cool. lol I'm sure they'd dirty a saltwater swimming pool. Even my parrots I made sure had water to bath with every day. I hope I don't have a big fight having unfluoridated unchlorinated civilized water. Indian runners don't need much water?

    He's very aware if the cows/goats eat any grain. I don't know if he would be the same with eggs or not. Hopefully he won't bring it up and just feel well with it. If grain fed egg hurts him and I don't warn him, he might feel hurt. What about feeding the laying hens old grass fed meat and entrails? I'm sure he's cool with the animals eating anything that's good for them.

    I had to eat yolks without whites for six months before I could tolerate any whites. The whites were smelling awful to me.

[Dorothy]

  I know fencing is important. Another concern.

    Kiddie pool, cool. lol I'm sure they'd dirty a saltwater swimming pool. Even my parrots I made sure had water to bath with every day. I hope I don't have a big fight having unfluoridated unchlorinated civilized water. Indian runners don't need much water?

    He's very aware if the cows/goats eat any grain. I don't know if he would be the same with eggs or not. Hopefully he won't bring it up and just feel well with it. If grain fed egg hurts him and I don't warn him, he might feel hurt. What about feeding the laying hens old grass fed meat and entrails? I'm sure he's cool with the animals eating anything that's good for them.

    I had to eat yolks without whites for six months before I could tolerate any whites. The whites were smelling awful to me.

Oh, chickens LOVE meat leftovers - and the difference between ruminants and chickens is that chickens are supposed to eat grain so it doesn't mess them up like it does a goat. I love watching them jump to get eat grass seeds and in the wild they would search high and low for seeds whenever they can get them just like they dig for bugs. He could also hunt or raise bugs for them. They eat mostly bugs. To feed my chickens what I feel is their ideal diet (and I'm a bit crazed about it) I am building a black soldier fly composter and working on making a really good mealworm system. In the spring I will also raised red wigglers again. With the bsflies and red wigglers I take their leftovers and make them into bugs for them and with the mealworms I take the grains that they eat and raise some bugs in it so that I can put out seed WITH bugs in it. Chickens do need some grain to be healthy just like they need little rocks to digest. Grains are an important part of their diet and most good chicken feeds have a big percentage of fish meal in them to provide the protein that they so need. Chickens will even eat a small mouse and I've seen them eat snakes. They love getting meat and if they get used to you feeding it to them from an early age will thrive on your meat leftovers.

Ducks as I understand it on the other hand eat primarily bugs and grass, but also, very high protein diet. I don't know enough about them yet to know if they will eat meat leftovers, but I knew someone who fed their ducks nothing but dog food out of cans - so if the meat is soft, I suspect they will love it too.

Ducks will dirty any pool as they poop where they swim, but the woman that sells me duck eggs told me that she has one trough with wire over it so that the ducks can put in their heads and drink, but not swim in. The kiddie pool they poop in needs to be cleaned every day or too - but if they have fresh water to drink, they will be ok. Do you have a salt water pool? That might have to be fenced off from the ducks or it will get pooped in. If you don't have a fence, one of the best options is a chicken tractor. You move it from place to place in your yard so that the chickens can have fresh grass and a new place to fertilize. They come in all sizes. Big smart farms have the kind that get pulled behind a tractor to weed and fertilize their fields.

Indian runners don't fly so they will be fine in my fenced-in yard as my chickens are. I had to clip the wings of my leghorns when I first got them, but now they know where home is and are fine fully-winged.

That was a long post with a bunch of birdie info. Hope it was useful.

Why kind of parrots did you have? I soooooooo want to get eclectuses! I miss parrots in my life. Husbands allergies though. Hopefully with enough D3 Tuxedo the feral cat will one day be able to hang with me on the couch along with my pair of parrots!

[TylerDurden]

I disagree that chickens are meant to eat grains. Sure, some grains but chickens fed on 100 percent grain diets(most chickens taste foul by comparison to pasture-fed chickens.