Coffee: A Splendid Paleolithic Brew

[balancing-act]

Hey, I'm a new poster, but I wanted to say- you nailed it, Dorothy. I'm a bitter ex-coffee-addict. That stuff is more destructive to health than anything, in my opinion, and it turns us into little capitalist robots.
The only thing I'd disagree with is the association with revolution. Any revolution I want to be a part of would be conscious in nature, and coffee- effectively legalized speed- is anything but that. Coffee is not a drug of liberation; it's a drug of control.

[billy4184]

Hi Cherimoya_kid, well I know they got up there all right for a day or two, but thanks for clearing this up. I apologise. Maybe someone else decided they didn't like what I had to say.

About the coffee, incidentally I decided to give it up this yesterday due to a lot of information on how bad it is for the teeth. It doesn't make me feel great either (it sure tastes good though). Apparently its a diuretic (takes away minerals) and leaves a drier mouth which is no good when the minerals I need for the teeth are in saliva. I also found it very hard to drink water when coffee was an option, which I hope will improve.

Iguana, there's no such thing as a person who does 100% paleo, only an attempt to follow an approximation of what we think was the case way back when. I doubt the ancestors used to drink coffee, but they chewed and smoked (unrefined) hashish because they didn't give a stuff and wanted to get high like everybody else. Doesn't mean I'm going to, but who knows, it could be the answer to killing the cavity bacteria 

Tylerdurden, I hear you about the compromise. There's just too many good people who couldn't care less about diet and you can hardly avoid them just for that. Though I always try to get a word in about it somehow.
 Cheers

[Dorothy]

Hi Balancing-act. You might not agree with the kinds of revolutions but coffee sure in history has been pivotal in different revolutions. Here's an example from Uncommon Grounds:

"The French historian Michelet described the advent of coffee as "the auspicious revolution of the times, the great event which created new customs, and even modified human temperament." Certainly coffee lessened the intake of alcohol while the cafes provided a wonderful intellectual stew that ultimately spawned the French Revolution."

The intense alcohol consumption before coffee was the opposite to the loquaciousness and energy that created the hotbends of discontent and planning that coffee spurred on.

It was also used to fuel the industrial revolution. The poor workers could not get enough nutrition to be able to work, but with coffee they felt as if they had eaten and hence could work longer hours to get more pay - much like in the present hookers use meth.

The kind of revolution that having solid, steady, intense energy and focus that a raw paleo diet would create would of course be quite a different kind of revolution entirely! I'll join you in that one!!!

[cherimoya_kid]

I’m flabbergasted by the number of people here who still drink coffee ! What is the point of talking about raw paleo diet while drinking coffee, which is neither raw nor paleo but on the contrary is well known as one of the most harmful foodstuff ? 

Do you think you will immediately notice a difference if you breath some asbestos fibers or commonly ingest a very small amount of dioxin ?

Oh, dear God almighty.  You are such a purist. I mean, I drink coffee maybe once or twice a week, at most, and I don't notice anything negative.  I certainly don't drink it every day, and I don't think I ever will, but I don't think it is comparable to dioxin or asbestos.

[HIT_it_RAW]

I’m flabbergasted by the number of people here who still drink coffee ! What is the point of talking about raw paleo diet while drinking coffee, which is neither raw nor paleo but on the contrary is well known as one of the most harmful foodstuff ? 

Do you think you will immediately notice a difference if you breath some asbestos fibers or commonly ingest a very small amount of dioxin ? Don’t be stupid, carcinogens taken at small but recurrent doses will only show an effect years or more likely decades latter. Didn’t you read the  posts linked below ?

http://www.rawpaleodietforum.com/general-discussion/coffee-a-splendid-paleolithic-brew/msg78629/#msg78629
http://www.rawpaleodietforum.com/general-discussion/response-delays/msg16926/#msg16926

Tyler said it right some of us do make some compromises to live a near normal social life. I drink one cup of coffee at work with my colleages because I like it and like I said I dont feel it does much harm. I was asking GS for his experiences and wasn't looking for someone to lecture me about all the possible bad stuff in coffee. I'm well aware that there are unhealthy substances in coffee but I think my body can handle them without much problems in small amounts. I suppose you live in an pristine forrest untouched by civilisation... If not than you breathe in many carcinogenic toxins every day which do get in your system through both your lungs and you digestive tract. Your body cleans itself from those toxins by excreting  them. I respect you for being 100% raw and instinctive without any compromises and hope that somewhere in the future you can respect people like me who try to live healthy 99% of the time with 1 or 2 compromises to ensure social health.

[RawZi]

    I have been a purist, but not at this time.  Eating RAFs has helped me that I can now tolerate some toxins like coffee.  I was never a coffee drinker, but one cup one day after never having it, I'd get a headache the next day.  Coffee never did anything good for me, but warm me up on the coldest day in years.  It is social though, I've had jobs where we took coffee breaks, it was normal.  Also friends ask me to coffee, Starbucks, I get a Perrier or whatever water they have.  That's me, but to each his own.  The world may be an infinitely better place if we were all Instincto, but we're not.  I accept the way it is.  We're each different from each other and at different points in our lives we're different too.  Sometimes I think it's the ER4YT differences when it comes to coffee and such.

[balancing-act]

Well, that's really what I mean!
I wouldn't consider the industrial "revolution," in which speeded up workers produced more stuff, to be a real revolution.

I'd posit that we need both a political revolution- the overthrow of a system of global corporatization in which .1% of people own almost everything and have us in a perpetual state of war- and a consciousness revolution, of which diet is a big part, as well as what drugs/herbs we use. And the two are intricately tied.

I'm ecstatic to have found this site, btw. I'm yet another ex-fruitarian now finding sanity. As well as a recovering caffeine addict... slowly slowly learning to live in peace. Thank you all.

[Dorothy]

Welcome Balancing-act!

Yeah - I knew you weren't talking about the French Revolution or the Industrial Revolution - but I think it's pretty interesting how tied in coffee was to those movements. It's also innately (like sugar cane) tied to slavery. All sorts of nasty things. I think I'd rather do the raw paleo mega-nutrition balanced thang myself.

I'm very glad that you found your way off "the juice" to here! 

[Muhammad.Sunshine]

Dorothy,

Thank you for your insightful and well written comments. It is fascinating how neurochemical substances affect sociopolitical realities.

[Dorothy]

Dorothy,

Thank you for your insightful and well written comments. It is fascinating how neurochemical substances affect sociopolitical realities.

Big Smile to you.

[billy4184]

I'm only a few days without coffee but I can honestly say its the best thing I have ever done. I didn't realise how much anxiety I had been getting when trying to regulate coffee and not drink too much (I've only been on two cups a day mostly anyway). I got irritable and even angry at things like cleaning up around the house and even just talking to people sometimes, and while I realise that it has to do with other things in my life as well I can tell you the coffee was making it a hell of a lot worse.

I can also tolerate MUCH better a low-carb diet because its very hard to destinguish the coffee swings from the carb swings. I've tried before and failed because I couldn't understand how anyone could tolerate the jitteriness and mood swings. When I went low-carb I usually cut out the coffee for good measure but didn't realise that it was the problem and not the food. At the moment I'm pretty much eating salad, a little meat and occasionally eggs with little fruit and I feel stable and focused and can study properly for my university exams. If I feel hungry, it no longer feels as if someone is trying to carve my brain from my skull, I think I could even fast if I wanted to without much trouble. To be clear, I feel jittery now and then from caffeine withdrawal but its easily recognisable and mostly I feel very relaxed, and it will probably take a few weeks to get better.

I think I was one of the lucky ones. Google a forum on quitting coffee and you'll see what I mean. If you think coffee isn't really affecting you that much, I encourage you to try a week without it. It won't be pretty, at first.
Cheers

[eveheart]

Many years ago (before Starbucks!), I became inadvertently addicted to coffee. It came about when my job required travel from office to office, and my route involved stopping at about 6 offices per day. Each office had a nice, welcoming pot of coffee, and I made it my habit to carry my own 32-oz coffee mug, fill it at each stop, and sip it while on the road between stops. <Pause here and do the math.>

My first clue that I had a problem was that I would wake up in the middle of the night craving coffee. I was unable to fall asleep again until I had brewed and consumed a 10-cup pot of coffee. Deciding that this had to stop, I quit coffee cold turkey. Detox involved the most unbelievable week of mental disorientation. I've been "off the juice" ever since then, but I'll never forget how subtle the addiction came about. I've heard since then that coffee detox can be fatal (unverified)!

[billy4184]

I ditched the coffee and couldn't be happier. I didn't realise how much of an effect it was having on my life, I thought I was just having a bit of anxiety and depression over the last few months but I suddenly feel very relaxed and focused and its not like everything makes me jumpy like before. If you have issues dealing with things (lack of concentration, irritability etc), don't say `surely cant be the cuppa' because it probably is.
Cheers

[Löwenherz]

What are your views on coffee, tea, or caffeine?

Absolutely useless, purely disgusting and toxic! 

Löwenherz

[Dorothy]

I got addicted to coffee when I was staying with a family in Spain. They were horrified that I didn't seem to be able to tolerate the stuff so made sure I got addicted by adding more and more to a cup of heated milk for me. The same thing happened with alcohol - I had to learn to tolerate it or I wouldn't be able to be social and learn - most of the social life was in the tapas bars and coffee and alcohol were pivotal - I couldn't refuse hospitality there and be seen as a really stupid snotty American!  It was part of trying to fit into the culture and "do what the Romans do". I went there strong and healthy and thin  but almost a year later when I left I was obese and depressed.

Coffee indeed works very much like sugar in the body Billy, releasing adrenalin which releases sugars. That's where the energy comes from. That's why coffee and alcohol are two sides of the same coin often - so much adrenalin in the evening needs to be repressed and alcohol is often used and alcohol also has sugars to keep the artificial blood sugars high enough not to collapse. It's like people trying to fine tune their brain chemistry with hammers and chisels!

In my house we call coffee "angry juice". There was a study where they gave rats coffee and if the rats were living alone there was little difference in their behavior, but if they put them together in a cage and gave them all coffee all hell broke loose and they would try to kill one another. Coffee if nothing else makes one nerves short and attitudes grumpy.

Do you know why they call coffee "jo" in America - it was because during world war 2 it was so important to the soldiers (GI Joes). There was almost no coffee in Germany during the war so the Americans dropped tiny packages of coffee into Germany to torture them.

Coffee is considered imperative to win wars in the modern world - even corporate wars. Americans drink more coffee and work more hours than most other western nations - yet don't get any more done - often less.

Entire nations on coffee and alcohol and sugar - the legal and most popular drugs. I personally think that these substances affect our world so deeply in ways that we can't even begin to be aware of so much that if we were somehow able to eradicate them (and now all the other chemicals related to them that are so new) everything would organically change so radically that we wouldn't even recognize our world - with nothing else being different.

[Iguana]

 

There was a study where they gave rats coffee and if the rats were living alone there was little difference in their behavior, but if they put them together in a cage and gave them all coffee all hell broke loose and they would try to kill one another.

It would be interesting to have the reference of this study, but anyway it’s absolutely plausible. GCB and his friends got very similar results with wheat on the mice they used for experiments. The males didn't only try to kill each other when receiving wheat, one succeeded and the other one was found dead in the morning. So, not only coffee perturbs the behavior, but also wheat and to a lesser extend other cereal grains, cooked food and dairy. Dairy and wheat contains exorphins.

[Dorothy]

It would be interesting to have the reference of this study, but anyway it’s absolutely plausible. GCB and his friends got very similar results with wheat on the mice they used for experiments. The males didn't only try to kill each other when receiving wheat, one succeeded and the other one was found dead in the morning. So, not only coffee perturbs the behavior, but also wheat and to a lesser extend other cereal grains, cooked food and dairy. Dairy and wheat contains exorphins.

That's extremely interesting Iguana. I wish I could give you a link for the study but I read it before there was even the internet. I guess if we might have to add dairy and wheat onto the list of "if only we could get rid of"s. 

Question for you Iguana - how does brown rice fair in the list of grains and their effects? Whole grain organic brown rice never affected me very badly - as far as cooked foods go.

[Max]

I got addicted to coffee when I was staying with a family in Spain. They were horrified that I didn't seem to be able to tolerate the stuff so made sure I got addicted by adding more and more to a cup of heated milk for me. The same thing happened with alcohol - I had to learn to tolerate it or I wouldn't be able to be social and learn - most of the social life was in the tapas bars and coffee and alcohol were pivotal - I couldn't refuse hospitality there and be seen as a really stupid snotty American!  It was part of trying to fit into the culture and "do what the Romans do". I went there strong and healthy and thin  but almost a year later when I left I was obese and depressed.

Culture is a very interesting subject, because it is all learned.  We raw paleo people are getting back to living the oldest and truest culture for humans.  That said, I have always wanted to travel the world and have grand experiences with other people and cultures.  I can't really do that the same way now if I wanted to stay paleo.  Sure I could pack a bunch of pemmican but I wouldn't experience the other cultures in the same way.  But thats okay.  I'm cool with that for now.

Hey, anyone ever realize how the word 'culture' starts with the word 'cult'.

[Dorothy]

Culture is a very interesting subject, because it is all learned.  We raw paleo people are getting back to living the oldest and truest culture for humans.  That said, I have always wanted to travel the world and have grand experiences with other people and cultures.  I can't really do that the same way now if I wanted to stay paleo.  Sure I could pack a bunch of pemmican but I wouldn't experience the other cultures in the same way.  But thats okay.  I'm cool with that for now.

Hey, anyone ever realize how the word 'culture' starts with the word 'cult'.

The way we will have to travel now Max is to meet up with other paleos around the world and have our grand experiences that way! The other way really isn't worth the cost.

........ and no ....... never noticed the "cult" in culture. That's a good word to look up the origins of!

[Iguana]

 

Question for you Iguana - how does brown rice fair in the list of grains and their effects? Whole grain organic brown rice never affected me very badly - as far as cooked foods go.

According to Seignalet, his wide scale experiments showed that rice is the least troublesome of all cereal grains he tested. Sometimes – once or twice a year, more often if I don’t find sweet potatoes or other sources of similar nutrients – I eat a small bowl of soaked organic whole grain brown rice and it’s fine.

I have always wanted to travel the world and have grand experiences with other people and cultures.  I can't really do that the same way now if I wanted to stay paleo.  Sure I could pack a bunch of pemmican but I wouldn't experience the other cultures in the same way.

You can travel all around the world while eating 100% raw paleo. I did it twice, and a third time halfway, coming back by the same side of the planet – and I never ate pemmican. The only thing is you have to remain mostly along the coasts to have seafood.

Hey, anyone ever realize how the word 'culture' starts with the word 'cult'.

I hadn’t , but it’s an interesting observation!

[eveheart]

... the "cult" in culture. That's a good word to look up the origins of!

Using "cult"  to mean a religious group (whether "sinister" or not) sprang out of one of the earlier meanings of the Latin word cultus. An even earlier meaning is reflected in our word cultivation. An interesting discussion is http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Culture.

[Dorothy]

I went and read that too Eve after posting. Interesting stuff.

[HIT_it_RAW]

That's extremely interesting Iguana. I wish I could give you a link for the study but I read it before there was even the internet. I guess if we might have to add dairy and wheat onto the list of "if only we could get rid of"s. 

Question for you Iguana - how does brown rice fair in the list of grains and their effects? Whole grain organic brown rice never affected me very badly - as far as cooked foods go.

some how i don't see you get rid of dairy anytime soon

@iquana
If you fed me white flour and water exclusively and locked me up a few guy on the same diet in a very small place i would start killing too. Wheat makes me sooo emotionally unstable. An interesting question however is if it isnt normal for mice to start killing each other when confined to a very small place with only males. I bet that if you take wild mice (not those subject to hundreds of generations of human selection for research) and put males together they kill each other no matter what you feed them.

[billy4184]

I spent my school life with my head on the classroom table, zonked from around 10 weet-bix in milk for breakfast. I don't know which one was the culprit, wheat or dairy, but it was probably both. The school medic told me I needed to eat eggs, and I wish I'd listened sooner.
Still managed to get into engineering tho

[Iguana]

@iquana
An interesting question however is if it isnt normal for mice to start killing each other when confined to a very small place with only males. I bet that if you take wild mice (not those subject to hundreds of generations of human selection for research) and put males together they kill each other no matter what you feed them.

The experiments lasted 10 years with in average between 100 and 200 mice receiving different diets in about 25 cages.
http://fr.groups.yahoo.com/group/Ecologie-Alimentaire/message/5934  (sorry, it’s in French)
When there were 2 males in a cage, they were never sociable with each other, staying as much as possible at opposites sides of the cage  . But as long as they did not receive wheat, they never killed the other.

This a quite general rule between  males of most species. They may fight, but the winner usually let the other go away without killing him. In this way, if there only two males left in an area and even if the winner is subsequently killed for whatever reason, the other one (the looser of the fight) is still there as a backup to perpetuate the specie.