Please vote: Are we meant to live in the tropics?

[Löwenherz]

Please vote:

Are we meant to live in the tropics?

Löwenherz

[TylerDurden]

Of course not. For example, Orientals are designed to more easily live in Arctic conditions, having a smaller body-size etc.

[Iguana]

(...) a smaller body-size etc.

What else than a smaller body size ? What about Pygmies ?
What about orientals of Sri Lanka, Thailand, Cambodia, Vietnam, Malaysia, Indonesia, Philippines, Melanesia ? 

[TylerDurden]

What else than a smaller body size ? What about Pygmies ?
What about orientals of Sri Lanka, Thailand, Cambodia, Vietnam, Malaysia, Indonesia, Philippines, Melanesia ? 

There are other characteristics that East Asians have which adapt them better to the cold:-

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mongoloid_race#Cold_adaption

I think a distinction is made between "neo-mongoloids", which are Chinese and Eskimoes, and "paleo mongoloids" which consist of Filippinos and more southerly Orientals. I would assume that the latter are less adapted to the cold than the former, given their darker skin.

Sri Lankans are descended from Dravidian ethnic groups, not Oriental ones, last I checked(?).

[Iguana]

Yeah, of course there is some kind of at least partial adaptation to cold climates in most populations and individuals, but nevertheless none live nude in arctic conditions! This simple fact shows that we are not perfectly adapted to life outside of the tropics. We all are descended from tropical apes and hominids, as far as we know.

Very few would survive in winter without the fire or any kind of heated shelter, moreover without clothing. 

I didn’t vote because I think both answers  (“Yes, no doubt! We all should actually live in warm regions.”- “Nonsense! Human beings are able to thrive nearly everywhere on this planet.”) are true. Being able to thrive somewhere doesn’t mean that we wouldn't feel better and be better adapted to somewhere else.

[Dorothy]

I don't know about anyone else Lowen - but I'm meant to live in the tropics.   It's too coooooooooold out there for me and this place is considered one of the warm ones in the U.S. The kitties out there have fur coats and the chickens have down coats on - what do I have - nuthin but coats I can steal from them.

[TylerDurden]

Iguana, you are dead wrong re this. There is scientific data showing that we are partly descended from Neanderthals who were well adapted to living in Ice-Age Europe well before the advent of fire. And, there is increasing evidence to suggest we are descended from all sorts of other apemen, not just those which came from  the tropics.

Personally, I can never understand this absurd love of warmth that some people have. I mean, warmer holidays with "sun, sea, sex and sand" tend to be overwhelmingly boring, often involving drunkenness and vomiting(such as in the Costa Del Sol, for example), or mindless, passive sunbathing, doing nothing, while one's skin slowly turns darker and more cancerous due to the sun's rays. And, in the summer, the water is usually  as warm as bathwater, which is very unpleasant. That's why I far prefer swimming in the Northern Mediterranean in May or September, not so much in July/August.

For me, the ultimate weather is to wander out in the lovely and cold snow wearing just a t-shirt and jeans, and some trainers if the snow is not too deep. I have been told that Iceland has an average annual temperature of 15 degrees Celsius - if only I could get a job there instead!

[papangue]

I was born in the tropics but I have always been attracted by cold countries. If I’m ok during the winter(very cool winter) I’m really in trouble during the summer.  Does our skin color have something to do with the place we were meant to live?

[Dorothy]

Tyler - perhaps why so many love laying on the beach is because they are vit d deficient and it's the only time most people tend to touch their naked feet and bodies directly to the ground - and of course the negative ions and the cleansing nature of sea water. When I lived in the tropics I spent most of my time outdoors in the shade in the forest gardening and doing stuff. That sterotype of vacations is very different than an every day lifestyle.

Tyler - would you really like to sleep outside in freezing weather - naked? Brrrrrrrr. It was almost freezing here last night and I thought to myself that I was grateful to have a shelter. Yesterday I had to work on my Meditteranean chickens' shelter to make it so that their waddles and combs wouldn't freeze. They do better in the heat of the summer here but need protection in the winter - like I think humans do. Frostbite is a real thing.

[TylerDurden]

10 years ago, before I did this diet, I was extremely susceptible to extremes of temperature, though heat was worse for me than cold. Once I started this diet, my circulation improved to the point where I could far more easily withstand really cold temperatures up in the mountains at night, than ever before.

I reckon it's all to do with what one is used to. People in cold climates on a constant basis will develop certain body structures, like the Neanderthals and East Asians did. Body coverings like furs clearly were also used long before modern humans ever appeared, so that helped too.

[Dorothy]

I do think that the whole question is different if you are including the natural protections that animals use against the cold that humans wear. My ability to withstand the cold changed dramatically when I went all raw too Tyler..... but I still wouldn't want to sleep outside naked when it's so cold that water freezes and how low it can get below that in parts of the US. Going outside when it's 40 F and enjoying some fresh air is one thing - but all night naked in an upstate NY winter - not many if any can survive that. I can't imagine any modern human even eating all raw paleo for generations being adapted to that. Maybe certain ancient lines were adapted like the Neandertal, but my northern white and unfurry self would die quickly me-thinks. 

[HIT_it_RAW]

We aren't meant to live anywhere specific since that would imply concsious intelligent design. We may come from the tropics but that does not mean we ought to be there.

I think the correct question would have been: Has evolution, the process of natural selection, favoured the human race with adaptation to survive in cold climates? The obvious answer to that question is yes since we are still alive!

However on a closer look the issue is more complicated. The avarage human (that's excluding tyler) cannot surive in a temperatures below 20 degrees without some form of protection from shelter, fire or clothes. So obviously our bodies have not fully been adapted to withstand colder climates but our minds have. The ability to stay warm by the use of fire clothes and shelter is a huge evolutionary advantage.

As tyler pointed out some humans have physically adapted somewhat to the colder climates. Stil the biggest adaptation is in our minds.

[Dorothy]

H-I-R - I did interpret Lowen's question asking if our BODIES are adapted meant just the actual physical self and not our intelligent manipulation of the environment. Of course we are adapted if you include central heating!   

[RawZi]

- would you really like to sleep outside in freezing weather - naked? Brrrrrrrr. It was almost freezing here last night and I thought to myself that I was grateful to have a shelter. Yesterday I had to work on my Meditteranean chickens'

    D, while practicing high fat raw meat diet I have slept outdoors in the snow without socks, no gloves, not hat, no scarf, no hood, no heater, no blanket, no tent, no heating grate, no fire, no shack, just shoes, a jacket, pants, that's about it.  I was not naked and I stayed near the wall to protect from some wind.  I slept well and my knees weren't even stiff in the morning.  I was more comfortable than indoor sleeping or sitting vegan or cooked.  I may do sleep like that all this Winter.  I told the son I've been talking about here.  A few days later he proclaimed he plans to sleep outdoors this Winter.  Eat high enough raw quality fat, and my experience is different.  Sure there were no mountain lions around, but at least there's no insects like outdoor tropics.  I can imagine a trillion mosquito bites trying this there.

[Iguana]

Iguana, you are dead wrong re this. There is scientific data showing that we are partly descended from Neanderthals who were well adapted to living in Ice-Age Europe well before the advent of fire. And, there is increasing evidence to suggest we are descended from all sorts of other apemen, not just those which came from  the tropics.

Perhaps I’m dead wrong, but it’s generally admitted that we descend much more (if not totally) from Cro-Magnons (Sapiens) than Neanderthals.
 
According to this article and others, http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/03/110314152917.htm
Neanderthals mastered the fire and “(…) there is evidence that contemporary humans carry a small amount of Neanderthal DNA. Modern humans began migrating out of Africa to Europe some 40,000 years ago.”

How much DNA ?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neanderthal#Genome 
Perhaps 1 to 4%, and it’s not even sure why.

Which species of non-tropical “apemen” are you talking about? You mean the Neanderthals were not descending from African hominids, Australopithecus and such, but were  instead an entirely separate branch originated from unknown cold climate hominids and apes?

Sure, Neanderthals were better adapted to cold climate than Sapiens, but still it seems Neanderthals were wearing furs and using the fire most of the time. If they were perfectly adapted they wouldn’t need either. Saying they were perfectly adapted is like pretending that we are adapted to cooked food because we can reproduce and thrive on it.

No, I think it would be better to admit that the Neanderthals could live in Europe mostly because they used technology, even if  “Neanderthal predecessors pushed into Europe's colder northern latitudes more than 800,000 years ago without the habitual control of fire, said Roebroecks”

Personally, I can never understand this absurd love of warmth that some people have. I mean, warmer holidays with "sun, sea, sex and sand" tend to be overwhelmingly boring, often involving drunkenness and vomiting(such as in the Costa Del Sol, for example), or mindless, passive sunbathing, doing nothing, while one's skin slowly turns darker and more cancerous due to the sun's rays. And, in the summer, the water is usually  as warm as bathwater, which is very unpleasant. That's why I far prefer swimming in the Northern Mediterranean in May or September, not so much in July/August.

For me, the ultimate weather is to wander out in the lovely and cold snow wearing just a t-shirt and jeans, and some trainers if the snow is not too deep. I have been told that Iceland has an average annual temperature of 15 degrees Celsius - if only I could get a job there instead!

That is your personal fondness! But, again, would you be able to live in such places without a heated shelter and clothes?

For me, tropical sun and seas means swimming, snorkeling, and windsurfing without wetsuit, biking, walking bare feet on a river bed up to a waterfall in the jungle, working in the garden, reading, drinking young coconuts, eating seafood, jackfruits, durians and mangoes, living nude or almost even at night, contemplating the sky full of stars…

Anyways, thanks for the interesting discussion. I’m ready to change my stance on this matter if you can prove me you’re right and I’m wrong! 

[Dorothy]

Zi - did you feel like you could do the same naked?

That's quite a testimonial!..... and really cool btw.    What was the temperature - do you know?

[Iguana]

GCB's son in snow. But I don't think he would spend a whole night like that... 

[Dorothy]

Would someone please explain how in accord with physics that someone without clothing for insulation and heat retention would prevent their skin from freezing in our extremities as the warmth is needed to protect the interior how we possibly would not get frostbite in extreme cold? I know that with a raw paleo diet our circulation gets better and we have a better layer of fat to protect our inner organs so not so much energy would be taken from the extremities and eating all raw we don't have to waste so much of our energy on digestion and we have stronger metabolisms -  but hey! - there is an actual limit. We can only generate so much heat and that heat escapes without fur or feathers or a massive amount of fat for insulation. Humans simply are not built like polar bears! We are built in every way to withstand HEAT! We walk upright so that the heat can escape and have lost most of our fur. We sweat all over our bodies for cooling. The hunter gathers of Africa can run for days after prey in the sweltering heat of the Kalahari and win because of the human ability to endure the heat. The prey gets overheated and exhausted where the bushman doesn't. We have very few adaptations to the cold like the animals that live naturally without fire and taking the protections of animals that do to use.

I think we can call ourselves adapted ONLY if we include our minds like H-I-R said.

[TylerDurden]

Iguana, the whole point is that the Neanderthals did not have the use of fire when they first appeared in Arctic/glacial areas almost a million years ago. So they managed to survive fine without the use of fire, for hundreds of thousands of years!

As for claims as regards survival, it all depends on what one is used to. For example, the Eskimoes have bodies so designed that they are far less likely to get frostbite than other ethnic groups. Plus, putting humans for a few generations into cold climates would kill off those least likely to survive in such  harsh climates, with the rest being  hardier.Then there is another point:- many arctic animals use various forms of shelter. For example, it was quite wrongly thought for decades that polar bears had no need for warmth - then they found that polar bear mothers did not breed successfully unless they had a warm place to lay in before and after birth. Bears in general also need a warm place for hibernation over the winter months and so on.

[Dorothy]

As for claims as regards survival, it all depends on what one is used to. For example, the Eskimoes have bodies so designed that they are far less likely to get frostbite than other ethnic groups. Plus, putting humans for a few generations into cold climates would kill off those least likely to survive in such  harsh climates, with the rest being  hardier.Then there is another point:- many arctic animals use various forms of shelter. For example, it was quite wrongly thought for decades that polar bears had no need for warmth - then they found that polar bear mothers did not breed successfully unless they had a warm place to lay in before and after birth. Bears in general also need a warm place for hibernation over the winter months and so on.

That's a really good explanation Tyler. Ok, let's play with this a little. What if (totally hypothetical as all this is) we were to take the entire human population of the planet and put them in the antartic with no clothing and took away the clothes of the eskimos and took everything above what an animal would have available with their level of intelligence - how many if any do you think would survive and what population would have to survive to consider humans to be adapted to cold?

What we used to be adapted to and what we might be able to get adapted to in future generations doesn't really count for what we are adapted to now does it? If there are a small portion of mutants within an entire species, does that count as the species in general being already adapted?
 

[cherimoya_kid]

    I can imagine a trillion mosquito bites trying this there.

Actually, mosquitoes in many places in the tropics are fairly rare.  It depends on where you are.  They're quite rare in Costa Rica, most of the time.

[sabertooth]

I believe that  man, for the most part, originated in the hot dry grasslands of the African savanna.

We developed long lean bodies and lost our thick fur, but kept long hair on the top of the head to protect us from the sun while walking upright on the hot open plains of Africa. We developed the ability to sweat profusely and dialate our blood vessels to dissipate the excessive heat while hunting or foraging under the midday sun of the savanna.

Cold weather adaptions must have occurred as Savanna Man began to migrate out of Africa and into the northern latitudes. The development of the intelligent use of resources to make artificial insulation that protected our naked bodies from the harsh cold being of Primarily importance.  Fire may not have been a primary factor for Neanderthals survival, but it may have been more important to the survival of the modern men that were claimed to come out of Africa much later and had bodies that were far less tolerant to cold than their Neanderthal cousins.

 Also, because their bodies were less tolerant to cold, necessity forced them to develop a higher intelligence in order to be able to fashion the high tech thermal wear that was essential for survival during the ice ages. Some of their clothing was quite ingenious for that primitive age.

I am sure that other biological adaptions occurred , besides larger brains , such as the gradual development of lighter skin  that was better for absorbing the limited UV rays of northern latitudes, for optimal vitamine D production.

Even modern day black people often get excessively dry skin in cold climates while their fellow white skinned neighbors seem to have far less problems. I believe that people who evolved in northen latitudes have a difference in the sub layer of skin which allows them to keep heat more so than those whose ancestors stayed in tropics.

[RawZi]

Actually, mosquitoes in many places in the tropics are fairly rare.  It depends on where you are.  They're quite rare in Costa Rica, most of the time.

     I've only been to a handful of tropical places, and I don't mean hotels.  Aren't there insects in Costa Rica?  Do any bite?

[RawZi]

Would someone please explain how in accord with physics that someone without clothing for insulation and heat retention would prevent their skin from freezing in our extremities as the warmth is needed to protect the interior how we possibly would not get frostbite in extreme cold?

    The fat isn't just under the skin and no where else.  It's all over where you need it, after eating the right proportions for a while in my experience.  It's in and around every cell, like a child with thick non-dry skin or an older deer buck or buffalo.  Yes we don't have fur, or at least I don't, but if our skin changes and we have good fat in the right places inside, and I know my blood is thick and healthy type thick, I think it helps too.  My blood takes somewhere around four times longer than average people's to come out when I'm donating blood.

- did you feel like you could do the same naked?

That's quite a testimonial!..... and really cool btw.    What was the temperature - do you know?

    I spent a Winter in deep blizzards with open sandals very active no frost bite.  I wore thin blouses, no jacket at times, no problem.  My bathing preference or relaxing preference indoors at night was a cold bath, long one.  The sleeping I mentioned above, there was a lot of snow, but not as much as the blizzards.  I don't think I recorded the temperatures.  I really have hated heating and cooling for decades, so it isn't a big deal to sleep outside or walk open toes walking through too much snow for most people to go out at all, even if I just came in from warmer climate, in nasty blizzards with thin blouse between my skin and flying snow.  In Winters with heat on all the time, I can't take the heating (even if it were cooling in Summer).  It's been that way that I remember for about three decades.  So, for me it's not hard to do it really, it's more like it's sickening not to.  I have theories why.  I think my body has a need to regulate it's own temperature, then I feel good.  When something outside is regulating the room, my body/mind fight it and is confused and actually gets the wrong temperature.  I haven't tried it naked and don't plan to.  I don't think it would be the same.  I like a thin layer between me and the elements, maybe it's some of my unusual antibodies that I had.  Difference between raw animal food and fats and not is that my hands freeze terribly painfully without any of the raw fat (and raw meat). 

[cherimoya_kid]

     I've only been to a handful of tropical places, and I don't mean hotels.  Aren't there insects in Costa Rica?  Do any bite?

The sand fleas on the beaches will bite you at dawn and dusk.  Otherwise, the insects are pretty rare except for the ants, which rule the tropics everywhere, and who you had better never step on.