Does ketosis accelerate AGEing?

[cobalamin]

@PaleoPhil

You misunderstood me. Doesn't matter.

I agree with what you are saying. Its not healthy being in ketosis all the time.

What I am saying is that short bursts of ketosis are beneficial throughout evolution and most likely happened by themselves.

[PaleoPhil]

OK, there does seem to be pretty wide agreement that periods of ketosis naturally occur among humans and other primates.

[Haai]

The question I am interested in is.. how often should we be in ketosis? which would benefit our evolution? 1,2,3,4... days a week?

Throughout humans existence in the palearctic I would say we were forced to go in to ketosis in the winter months. It is probably therefore not a bad idea to emulate this. Then in spring gradually increase carbs with the highest carb consumption being in summer, when fruit and honey are naturally abundant. In autumn gradually decrease carb consumption and enter ketosis again for the duration of the winter.

[SaintAndScholar]

OK, there does seem to be pretty wide agreement that periods of ketosis naturally occur among humans and other primates.

That's the problem right there.You are confusing empirical fact with a  democratic election.
Get your bio-chemistry lessons from doctors/scientists/encyclopedias not Joe Bloggs on the internet.

A female scientist (future Nobel prize winner) did work on metabolic pathways in worms (we have the same processes) and when she made her discovery , she immediately went home and chucked out all the grains and sugars from her fridge.

She replaced these carbs with fats , since to eat excessive protein for fuel is ill-advised.

I follow her.

[sabertooth]

I've been in ketosis for going on three years with no end in sight.

Why would it be harmful to stay in ketosis?

What about the Inuit who live into old age on high fat low carb diets?

[CitrusHigh]

I follow her.

So you admit that you're a follower! Good, that's the first step!

Pretty sure Phil's got his shit together in the facts department!

[goodsamaritan]

Throughout humans existence in the palearctic I would say we were forced to go in to ketosis in the winter months. It is probably therefore not a bad idea to emulate this. Then in spring gradually increase carbs with the highest carb consumption being in summer, when fruit and honey are naturally abundant. In autumn gradually decrease carb consumption and enter ketosis again for the duration of the winter.

I have this current understanding.  A beautiful lady here in the forum said no fruit during winter! (I have never experienced winter.)

[SaintAndScholar]

So you admit that you're a follower! Good, that's the first step!

Pretty sure Phil's got his shit together in the facts department!

Is Phil a scientist ? , why are you sure he has his facts right ?
1. He is not a mass murderer
2. He is a nice guy who spells very well
3. He has a lot of posts

So obviously he is correct

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/11/091103121605.htm

read that.

A low carb diet is necessarily a high fat diet.
I am the epitome of health , and recently broke the World record for healing from a bad  injury.

I shovel healthy raw chow down my neck non stop.

[SaintAndScholar]

Hi Phil,

you said
"
Chris Masterjohn also pointed out that glutathione (which is found in high amounts in foods like organs and egg yolks) cleans up AGEs and thus further offsets risks from consuming ketogenic or high-carb/sugar foods like honey:
"

In fact milk and in particular whey are the best source of glutathione.

To answer the original question - Does ketosis accelerate AGEing?
Intuitively, how could a natural metabolic process accelerate aging ?

[PaleoPhil]

Thanks Thoth.

That's the problem right there.You are confusing empirical fact with a  democratic election.

Get your bio-chemistry lessons from doctors/scientists/encyclopedias not Joe Bloggs on the internet.

Don't worry, I'm not claiming that it's empirical fact, nor do I get all my info from "Joe Bloggs" who are not doctors or scientists or democratic elections, nor do I follow anybody on anything--I generally seek out the best info I can find from multiple sources. If you've got something better to share, feel free. I'm open-minded and the only thing I know for sure is the fact of my ignorance (see discussion aids #1 and #2 below).

In fact milk and in particular whey are the best source of glutathione.

And Masterjohn mentioned those too in at least one of his articles (http://www.westonaprice.org/blogs/2010/09/11/the-biochemical-magic-of-raw-milk-and-other-raw-foods-glutathione/). Perhaps of interest to raw dairy eaters here, he wrote this and provided a reference:

In 1991, however, these researchers stumbled upon a critical discovery: whey proteins only boost glutathione status in their raw, undenatured state.

The biological activity of undenatured dietary whey proteins: role of glutathione.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1782728

He's more of a fan of dairy than me (though I do consume some), so I'm not saying it to defend him, just to share the info I'm aware of.

[Ioanna]

but being zero carb in itself does not automatically mean ketosis.  that would depend on protein level intake.

i'm a lot calmer in ketosis, but i have to drink a ton of water when i workout (if it's hard).  maybe i'm doing something wrong. but all the water is a pain.

[goodsamaritan]

but being zero carb in itself does not automatically mean ketosis.  that would depend on protein level intake.

i'm a lot calmer in ketosis, but i have to drink a ton of water when i workout (if it's hard).  maybe i'm doing something wrong. but all the water is a pain.

Maybe it is the structure of the water.  Eskimos may be eating freshly melted snow which may be structurally more useful than the water you bring to the gym.

[aLptHW4k4y]

but being zero carb in itself does not automatically mean ketosis.  that would depend on protein level intake.

i'm a lot calmer in ketosis, but i have to drink a ton of water when i workout (if it's hard).  maybe i'm doing something wrong. but all the water is a pain.

Probably because with higher protein intake there's more urea to excrete (and thus more water is needed)?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protein_%28nutrient%29#Excess_consumption

[SaintAndScholar]

I've been in ketosis for going on three years with no end in sight.

Why would it be harmful to stay in ketosis?

What about the Inuit who live into old age on high fat low carb diets?

You're not an inuit , you don't have their presumed special genes for such an unusual lifestyle.

What exactly do you mean "I've been in ketosis for going on three years with no end in sight"......?.....what does that mean ?

[sabertooth]

So new guy. You Know nothing of my experiment? You also seem a little pessimistic about my outlook?

You're not an inuit , you don't have their presumed special genes for such an unusual lifestyle.

I am of Native American and Northern European decent, and I am fairly sure that my ancestors survived on meat rich diets throughout their evolution. If you know anything about genetics then you should know that genes have the ability to revert back to previous structures depending on the environmental conditions. There is a Genetic memory that may allow someone such as myself to convert ones metabolism back to the fat burning keto-adaptive mode that help my ancestors survive the ice ages.

To answer your other questions.

What exactly do you mean "I've been in ketosis for going on three years with no end in sight"......?.....what does that mean ?

To be accurate I am not sure if I am really in ketosis. All I know is that I have been subsisting off of around thirty carbs a day, with about 60 percent of total calories coming from fat, 35 percent from protein, and about 5 percent carbs.

I may be an anomaly, I had some metabolic issues before starting this diet. My liver was damaged and would produce too much glucose, causing my blood sugar to spike even when I ate no carbs. Now that I eat copious amounts of raw fat and animal flesh my blood sugars as well as my whole metabolic profile is within normal range. I am also physically stronger and feel better than I ever remember feeling. I am not making this up, I am in excellent shape and do not have any signs of negative health effects that some people experience on low carb diets.

 My Diet consist of mostly Whole lamb(marrow, brains, other organs, blood,etc,) supplemented with extra stomach lining fat, a fair amount of coconut butter, some lemon water, high meat, and eggs.


This diet is working well for me and I see no reason to change it.

My statement was more of a challenge put forth against the claim that low carb Raw Paleo Dieting can not be sustainably healthy or that it somehow accelerates ageing.

I agree that Low carb may not work for most, {especially considering that most are not willing or able to take it to the extreme necessary to promote total adaption} , but that does not mean that there are not any mutants out there that are exceptions to the rule. 

[SaintAndScholar]

So new guy. You Know nothing of my experiment? You also seem a little pessimistic about my outlook?

I am of Native American and Northern European decent, and I am fairly sure that my ancestors survived on meat rich diets throughout their evolution. If you know anything about genetics then you should know that genes have the ability to revert back to previous structures depending on the environmental conditions. There is a Genetic memory that may allow someone such as myself to convert ones metabolism back to the fat burning keto-adaptive mode that help my ancestors survive the ice ages.

To answer your other questions.
To be accurate I am not sure if I am really in ketosis. All I know is that I have been subsisting off of around thirty carbs a day, with about 60 percent of total calories coming from fat, 35 percent from protein, and about 5 percent carbs.

I may be an anomaly, I had some metabolic issues before starting this diet. My liver was damaged and would produce too much glucose, causing my blood sugar to spike even when I ate no carbs. Now that I eat copious amounts of raw fat and animal flesh my blood sugars as well as my whole metabolic profile is within normal range. I am also physically stronger and feel better than I ever remember feeling. I am not making this up, I am in excellent shape and do not have any signs of negative health effects that some people experience on low carb diets.

 My Diet consist of mostly Whole lamb(marrow, brains, other organs, blood,etc,) supplemented with extra stomach lining fat, a fair amount of coconut butter, some lemon water, high meat, and eggs.


This diet is working well for me and I see no reason to change it.

My statement was more of a challenge put forth against the claim that low carb Raw Paleo Dieting can not be sustainably healthy or that it somehow accelerates ageing.

I agree that Low carb may not work for most, {especially considering that most are not willing or able to take it to the extreme necessary to promote total adaption} , but that does not mean that there are not any mutants out there that are exceptions to the rule.

Hails,

I'm quite the expert on all things genetic, and there is no such thing as genetic memory.There's epi-genetics and canalisation and introns and exons and all the rest...more than enough mystery in there without deluding yourself.

I also eat a high fat diet, although I prefer to get my lipid fuels from nuts and avocadoes and dairy etc.I eat the raw meat for minerals and iron etc.

You seem like a smart person, so I will be following you and your health.You are consuming too much protein though, and this is where you ketosis is coming from.

Proteins are not supposed to be oxidised/burned for fuel.They are structural elements.

Much respect for the coconut butter, but what the heck is   stomach lining fat ?

[Inger]

Having mostly the same eating habits as Sabertooth for years (thas says, mostly RAF including also coconut and all hat grows wild of course), and doing really great with it.. it is quite clear to me why it does not work for some.
It is the cold. Not to fear it but let your body feel it. As the dark too. It is to let the body feel the seasons change. It is to limit artificial light as much as possible when dark outside.
Without these things you cannot get to optimal. It has nothing to do with that keto is not good for you. It is nothing more natural, than eating what grows locally. And there are lots of places where there are carbs only limited time of the year. Wildgrown. Cause this is the optimal. The wild foods are the once that make the strongest and healthiest  Humans.
In the nature is all the healing we need, we just need to open up for it. Empty our mind of all unneccesary knowledge and dogmas.

Inger

[sabertooth]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_memory_(biology)

I am not by any means deluding myself, if anything I am a little lazy in my explanations of scientifically complex phenomenon.

When I mentioned genetic memory I was using the term in the context of epi-genitic change. There are latent genes within our DNA code that are remnants of our evolutionary past, these genes under the right environmental circumstances can reactivate. Evolution is not a one way street, life forms can revert to previous gene structures in order to adapt to changing environments.

I call it genetic memory, perhaps there are better ways to word it?

I've covered the subject in more detail on other threads.

I believe that the genetic adaptions that allowed early hominids to thrive off of raw meat were already embedded into our genetic code from an earlyer era where primates evolved from a weasel type carnivorous creature (very primitive insectivores). These carnivorous adaption genes were stowed away in a dormant state until the environmental necessity of their reactivation became emergent. The genes became reactivated in our early ancestors and along with some other mutations, created the perfect storm of conditions which allowed for the development of the human mind(a true miracle or random coincidence)

Most other proto primates had to readapt to live as herbivores, as part of the evolution possess and were evolutionary confined to the smaller brained herbivore paradime, where as our ancestors took a different more meat eatting path which led to the creation of the intelligence we are indowed with(or cursed with) . There must have been many evolutionary adaptive swings in the proto-primate ancestors  between carnivore, omnivore and herbivore diets. All of which leads me to believe that humans who undamaged by modern circumstances are more like omnivores,and that in order to attain optimal health must eat a large amount of quality meat along with some forraged organic plantfodder.

Although people like me with a damaged ability to possess plant carbs can do well to rely on those throwback genes from our carnivorous weasel(insect eatting) ancestors to live off of an almost completely carnivorous diet.

Protein can be used as fuel without causing damage as long as its raw and buffered with enough fat.

Stomach lining fat is the soft fat that surrounds the intestines and stomach. Its real soft and buttery unlike suet or fat trimmings.

[Alive]

I agree sabertooth, that makes perfect sense.