Update

[miles]

Haven't eaten raw meat in a few months, except once/twice, or where I didn't cook meat all the way through; and not much raw plant either. I can't digest raw meat well. I try to balance though, cooking to allow me to digest it, but not overcooking and destroying nutrients. If I cook it too much my teeth ache and my eyes feel tired; if I leave it raw my digestion grinds to a halt, I feel on the edge of nausea until I eat enough plant food to push it through, and can get some itching/eczema too. An example is I'll preheat the oven to 250C, put in the meat for a few mins and then let it drop to 100C and leave it there until it's cooked through, ~50mins for the slab I just did.

Eating lots of boiled/steamed veg too, with sea salt and rendered fat/butter. Had some sourdough bread a few times too, with butter; and rice with salt, spices and olive oil a few times. I always drink the water from the boiled veg/steamed veg, or make it into a stew.

Things I've been having raw are some lettuces, celery and cucumbers.. O'course, would have milk, fruit, honey etc raw but I've not had those much, just some honeycomb once in the last few months.

I've just decided not to be fixed on anything, just to try anything I feel might benefit me in the moment - trying pretty much everything in the organic store in my town. After overcooking my meat one night(tried steaming), I undercooked it the next night, and then got it just right today. I didn't eat any meat for a week and I forgot how to do it right >.>

Been working on an organic farm the last month as well, and going to start a 1-2 year apprenticeship early next year.

Didn't say this until now, because as I said, I never decided to stop raw paleo or anything, I've just been trying some stuff and continued to do what worked. I will continue to try new things anytime I feel like it. Of course I stuck with raw paleo initially because I found it very beneficial compared to what I was doing before it, as I had found what I did before that(a crappy cooked semi-paleo)  beneficial in comparison to what I did before that. It just happens that I've moved on again.

In the beginning I only found that the digestion was slow, but it was always complete and I never felt any problem with it, just that it took a long time - and otherwise I felt great, infinitely better than I had at any other time before it. However at some point my digestion just couldn't handle it any more and I started to get the problems I mentioned, so I tried cooking some and now it's all good again - because of what I've learnt on this forum and eating raw paleo. 

I'd still try any quality meat raw, I've got no problem with that, it's just that I've been preferring it cooked. This is just my own case I'm talking about, not applying it to anyone else or to rpd. Rpd is great, it has helped many people including myself, and people are eating it for decades and doing great. It has had no lasting negative effect on me, only positive, and I still consider myself no different to when I was eating rpd, and will continue to check in on this forum for the great information, and will always see raw meat/veg as the food, even if I do cook it for myself to make it easier to digest.

[goodsamaritan]

It may be that your liver is overloaded with cooked toxins so the quality of bile is poor.

You may wish to try diluted juice fasting.

Also try Henry Bielers soup to improve bile.

Do some egg yolk liver flushes to cleans and improve bile.

Eat bitter fruits like bitter melon to improve bile.

[miles]

I agree it's likely I have that sort of problem goodsamaritan, and I'll follow your suggestions and have a look at trying some of those things, but I will continue to do only what makes me feel good, as I have done so far. Not worth getting myself down about it though in the mean-time and sticking doing something that isn't working for me. If I try some of these things and I feel like it's worked, then I'll happily try eating more raw foods again and see if it was successful.

A big problem has been a lack of money, which has made it hard for me to try different things, meaning I'm likely to get stuck in a rut for a long time... but I'm starting to get more money now which is making it easier to experiment.

[zeno]

Although others on this board would have you believe milk may be the devil I and some others have been having success with raw milk. I suggest you look into including raw milk/kefir in your diet.

[Dorothy]

If you think your bile is overloaded there is a very easy and cheap way to remedy it. Peppermint. It's amazing. My Mom was at the point where they were thinking of taking out her gall bladder. I gave her tincture but regular old tea would do too. Next ultrasound - all clear. I often crave peppermint after I eat raw meat. It's very gentle. It simply dissolves the cholesterol that builds up. One organic tea bag is all you need to see what your body tells you about it.

Best of luck Miles. Good for you staying open, experimenting and trusting your body.

[miles]

Thanks Dororthy, I'll have a go with that.

[miles]

The peppermint tea thing didn't seem to go too well... It just messed up my digestion and made my bowels liquidy - the very issue I overcame, and have not been affected by since I began cooking. Although there must be some issue, for my digestion to no longer be able to handle raw meat, I'm actually having no problem with my digestion since using cooking.

By the way... the thing I said about overcooking meat making my eyes tired... that actually only happened from boiling/steaming meat - I went a week with little meat and what I had was boiled so I forgot. Oven at 250C is fine, and in fact I prefer it cooked more than less when done in the oven.

[Dorothy]

Just shows to go ya how individual we all are! Peppermint is a gentle digestive herb that rarely has any negative side affects and just helps people digest well things that they normally have some trouble with.

It's a cooling herb though so it makes me wonder how a warming herb would do for you. Have you ever had ginger or ginger tea? How does that make you feel? Ginger is also a gentle digestive but warming. 

[miles]

Oh, well I'm using ginger and garlic in my stews anyway. I love the ginger, it is indeed warming. I've used mint too though and I like that.The peppermint tea however I didn't even enjoy drinking.

Well I wasn't having any trouble at the time I took the tea, perhaps that's the difference.

[Dorothy]

If you use ginger and garlic in your stews and feel no ill effects Miles and hot food is better for you than non-heated food it makes me think that you might be on the yin side. If I were in your shoes I might experiment with putting garlic and ginger in raw ground meat to see if they help. Cayenne pepper too. And not to eat the meat cold out of the fridge but room temperature. But only after you feel strong again if you care to experiment. I highly doubt the issue is with your bile if peppermint tasted and felt that bad to you. I betcha your balancing a cold constitution with the hot foods. But, as everything on such a forum, it's only an educated guess based upon how you reacted to the peppermint and your desire for hot foods.

[majormark]

miles,
Constipation or the lack of ability to digest raw meat is caused by a serious lack of bacteria in your gut => try some high meat daily. That's what Aajonus would recommend.
If you don't do high meat, try other solutions (like eating it with butter or eggs etc).

[Dorothy]

Good thought Majormark Increasing gut bacteria is almost always a factor in helping any kind of digestion or health chalengel  - it's the core of our digestion and immune systems. Which bacteria-rich food though totally depends on what sits well with you and what appeals to you. If you can't digest any raw meat, high meat might seem unappealing at present even though it will be the richest in the bacteria that would be useful to digest meat, but there are lots of alternatives that could be useful to you working your way to high meat if you want to. There are so many good ferments! You're probably are familiar with them. Have you been eating any ferments lately?

It's also not always one thing. Some things kinda go together.

[miles]

Interestingly, whatever it is that prevents me from processing raw meat, also prevents me from processing raw milk... I get EXACTLY the same problem after drinking raw milk as from raw meat... Whatever is causing this problem only started ~7months in to eating a raw diet... For the first 6months I ate only raw meat/fat/organs, then I started eating fruit and vegetables etc too, and then I developed this problem, and it has stuck with me since. It seems very odd...

I'll add, that I have had NO problem digesting pasteurized milk(I know because at the farm I was working on some people came to share my mobile home and left behind like 6 pints of pasteurised organic milk, which I drank to stop it from being wasted... and I have NO problem digesting cooked meat either...

Anyone have any idea what it could be really, considering what I've said? I was doing fine with what I was eating, all cooked paleo stuff, but then I fancied having milk for a week instead of meat to try it out, actually after fantasizing about being a herder or something, so I ordered unpasteurised organic milk figuring it would be the best to have... but then it clogged my digestion the same as raw meat does, I can't think why... EXACTLY the same way as raw meat... so a few hours after drinking me milk I just start to feel really bad like it's stuck there and I have to eat a load of vegetables to move it along...

I'm not drinking any more of this milk like that, the effects are too bad. I'm going to try actually pasteurising some of it myself to see what happens then, and also try making some cheese, yogurt etc with it see how that is..

It adds confirmation though to it being a relatively 'acute' problem with me and not raw meat, because whilst cooking meat has been popular for a LONG time amongst most humans, I think cooking of milk was very rare until recently for pasteurization...

[miles]

Seems like an enzyme issue, that I don't produce enough enzymes to digest raw food now or something, or just not the right enzymes *shrug*.

[cherimoya_kid]

Have you tried fermenting the milk?  I have trouble with stomach cramps, if I drink fresh milk, but no problem with fermented.

[miles]

How do you ferment it? Do you add vinegar or something to help it ferment correctly?

[Inger]

Miles,
I would try to change the meat.
If you were eating beef, try game. Or buffalo. Or pastured chicken, fish..
I was reading about that our body might develop kind of an allergy to certain food we eat too often, or too much.
Like bodybuilders often develops allergy against eggs, cause they eat eggs every day.
This gives some credit to the instincto-theory indeed.
Or eat fruits and veges, nuts for a time?
Mix it up. Might be your body is telling you to change something I guess.

Inger

[goodsamaritan]

Listen to Inger.  And maybe it's time to do some fasting.

[Dorothy]

Miles - here are some thoughts: It sounds to me like you are having trouble breaking down things that haven't already been mostly broken down for you already with heat. Considering that raw meat and milk contains enzymes I would think that it's more likely a bacteria problem in your gut - but you could always just try adding some enzymes to see if that helps to get more data. The idea of fermenting raw milk and meat and other things would be an interesting experiment. That will tell you if it's a bacteria issue.

Another thing that hits me is that you were fine digesting nothing but raw meat and organs until you added the vegetables -- did I get that right? I'm just wondering what would happen if you went back to what you were doing that was working originally before adding more foods?

[miles]

Once I added fruit/veg, I got the problem, and it stayed. Of course I tried going back to just eating meat, but it didn't work. once I had the problem it would not go. I still have the problem, but eating cooked foods I do not have the symptoms - only if I eat raw foods again. I'm fine with foods people here say are hard to digest like nuts, sourdough grains, pasteurised milk and cooked beef - but if I eat some raw meat or raw milk I have the problem..

The problem(from eating raw meat/milk) is not bloating, gas or pain... It's just.. nothing. it's like everything just stops, and the discomfort, the sick feeling just builds but nothing happens... There is no gas, no pain as such, I do not vomit, nothing really.. If I try and wait it just gets so bad. I have to eat lots of food to make it push out as liquidy stool(undigested), but doing this, because the food is stuck behind the raw meat or milk, it ferments and gives the 'candida' issue.. I tried all different raw things, probiotics, rotten meats, fermented vegetables etc, nothing changed the problem. After time the candida type problems from the stagnant digestion got worse, to the point I started to get some eczema, so I just started cooking everything and the symptoms went, though the problem is still there if I try to eat raw milk or meat again.

It's not a problem with the food but with me, I've always had some problem, I just have to eat what works best for me.

[cherimoya_kid]

If you are having actual candida problems, then you're not getting enough fat.  I recommend adding more fat (especially VCO, if you can digest it).

[Dorothy]

Miles, that's really interesting that you were able to digest raw animal foods but adding raw vegetables made it impossible to eat raw animals foods any more. Curious! You've tried bacteria-rich foods of many different kinds but they made no difference. Have you ever tried enzyme supplements? Did they make any difference?

Do you feel generally healthy and have vitality when eating cooked foods? Did you feel better eating raw animal foods before eating the vegetables than you do now?

Do you have a desire to try to figure out a way to get back to being able to eat raw foods again? Are you looking for suggestions or just want to share your experience with us? I mean that as a sincere question btw. Most of the modern world eats cooked food so in a sense it's easier for you than those of us that feel dramatically better eating raw foods.

How can we best support/help you?

[miles]

I felt better in many ways eating just raw animal foods than I do now, before I got the problem, whatever it is. However there are also some ways in which I feel better now. I feel that if I'd just eaten how I do now in the beginning(by which I mean the time I started eating RAF - if I'd ate how I do from the beginning of my life, I think I'm sure I'd be super-healthy), that I might feel equal to or better than I did eating just RAF, but I'm not sure. Back when I first started eating RAF I did not have the money to experiment with food, as I was at school and my parents only gave me at the very most £2/day for all my food.

I was just wanting to share my experience really, but then thought I might as well ask for opinions whilst I was at it. I do not expect anyone to know what the problem is, and I tried all the things I've seen people suggesting before I tried cooking.

[Dorothy]

Fair enough Miles. Thanks for explaining. When it comes down to it - all that we're all trying to do is feel the best we can any way we can figure out how to do so.... and share our experiences. At least you have been able to figure out what you need to do to feel ok and it's not hard to get/make the kind of food you need. I'm sorry we couldn't figure out anything new for you to try. So you tried ferments and GS's suggestion of fasting and Cherimoya's suggestion of increased fat and have tried taking digestive enzymes? I can't think of anything else to suggest besides herbs and supplements - but doing that long-distance doesn't make much sense. I guess you're stuck having life  more socially acceptable and perhaps easier and sometimes tastier eating cooked foods.     

Do you think that you will ever try raw again?

[Sully]

Hey Miles.

I actually been eating a lot of cooked rare/meat lately too. I eat about the same amount of calories whether its cooked, rare or raw. I would suggest broiling or fire for cooking. Char both sides. Honestly when I am hungry, doesn't matter if its raw, grass fed or not. I am going to chow down on some type meat and fat after a long day.


But today I had some raw liver (got from Mexican store), some cooked liver. And some ground meats charred on one side (forgot about it in the oven). I do find cons to eating cooked meat, and seasoned food. I do find cons to eating lower quality meat too. I haven't had nay cons to raw meat honestly, even with digestion. I do feel very good eating closer to wild, like wild deer etc. WILD IS SO MUCH BETTER, TASTE ETC! there are  a lot of variables when it comes to what the animal is fed, how old the animal is when its killed too.

A lot of beef is killed 2-4 years old I think. Not very old, but, imagine killing a wild deer. Chances are the older ones will have more nutritionally dense fat, organs and meat.
Many people now a days are used to younger animals flesh, its less gamey in flavor. I crave the gaminess haha


Keep us updated miles, btw cooked chicken I do horrible with. I hate it.  love red meat, raw, rare or cooked. Its my favorite. And I wouldn't recommend dairy from my own experience Miles. Cooked or raw, it gives me nothing but trouble.

Just keep us updated bro!

Edit: Also with cooked meat, let it cool down, so it won't bother one's teeth or burn your mouth. It can be hard to wait. I think from my own experiences, I don't have any problems with raw meats. More so with cooked, even though I have been eating my fair share of both lately.