Vitamin D

[sabertooth]

My wife was sick as a child. She had chronic recurring infections and wasn't thriving. She had a University of Kentucky hospital insurance plan and was seen by dozens of doctors and it wasn't until her pinkie fingers began to grow crooked and ridges formed on her teeth that one doctor finally diagnosed vitamin D deficiency. Then all he did about it was tell my mother in law to give her a multi vitamin without any other recommendation. This is a complete travesty, and one that I believe is currently ongoing for millions of young children as well as adults in the industrial world.

I have researched vitamin D roughly enough to be certain that there must be ways to insure one has a natural abundance of it, as well as all the other internally synthesized vitamin compounds. My wife thinks I am crazy and is always discouraging my scientific endeavors, but since there seems there is a good audience of like minded people here, I would like to present my million dollar discoveries, too. I was going to keep it all a secret and try to develop my treatments for profit $$$, but since I decided to raise a family on a working mans wage, I just won't be able to set up the lab animal experiments necessarily to get scientific validations.

SO, I have decided to offer my ideas to all, free of charge, (all modesty aside). Perhaps with the help  and insight of others here, we can form a symposium that will lead to eventual discovery and establishment of real and effective treatments for the many problems that involve Vitamin D deficiency.

First one must look at the evolutionary history and understand the biology which makes it necessary for land vertebrates to need such large amounts of vitamin D to thrive. There are plenty of evidence that photosynthesis of vitamin D is absolutely necessary to produce enough vitamin D for numerous functions it is needed for.

There is no justification for trying to bypass the natural skin synthesis of vitamin D. So what if you work in doors or it's culturally unacceptable to spend so much time lying half naked in the sun; it is needed for optimal health. Artificial supplementation is not the boon that many people have been led to believe. Sure it will give you benefits and may normalize your levels and give temporary results, but I am skeptical of how ingesting supplemental vitamin D can give you the full spectrum, synergistic benefits of vitamin D generated in the skin and absorbed through the body as evolution intended. My new theory is that when vitamin D is ingested in large amounts it could even alter the bio feedback signals which regulate the bodies natural production of vitamin D , so that the body falsely believe that its supply is adequate so it shuts off its own production.

An alternative view of the body's surface is needed. Think about the inside of the gut and how so much press has been given to "gut ecology" and how bacterial flora and bodily enzymes form a bio film that protect the gut and alow for optimal digestive function. Then apply the same principal to the body's skin ecology. Our skin was designed by nature to live and thrive under certain environmental conditions. I hypothesize that the skin of Paleo man had a natural layer of bio film that was composed of dead skin, various strains of probiotic organisms and the substances they secreted, melanin.... etc, these substances covered the surface of the skin dissolved in a matrix of natural body oil, and constituted a vitamin rich protective layer that was evolved to cope with exposure to the elements.

Within that unadulterated bio matrix of Paleo Mans skin you will find all the elements needed for optimal vitamin D production. Not only that but this surface layer also protected ones skin from the damaging effects of the suns rays, and in fact exposure to natural sunlight strengthened and revitalized Paleo man by stimulating the production of Vitamin D as well as other hormones like serotonin. Even with limited exposure to the sun one can assume that even paleo man of northern latitudes was still able to produce enough Vitamin D to survive, and in arctic conditions I presume that the Eskimos ate enough sea animals and organ meats to not need as much vitamin D from the sun.

There are still many variables but the theory seems sound.

Understanding the nature of vitamin D and how it is produced will help one understand how easily that delicate balance can be disrupted by a number of factors. People of the modern world usually bath regularly and wash away much of that bio matrix that is necessary for the gestation of pre vitamin D compounds. They also cover themselves even when the weather is pleasant, out of modesty. There is also internal factors like diet and nutrition. If one does not get enough of cholesterol and other building blocks of the proto vitamins then it wont have the raw materials necessary for optimal vitamin synthesis.

Without the bio-matrix protecting ones skin combine with the lack of vital levels of cholesterol and animal fat, many people have lost their ability to develop healthy levels of melanin in order to protect themselves from the suns rays for long enough to begin to build up their Vitamin D levels.

That's where my million dollar Idea fits into it.

There must be a natural way build up ones ability to produce vitamin D, even from limited sun exposure. To restore the skins natural bio matrix, and the bodies levels of cholesterol and probiotic bacteria that work synergistically to produce optimal levels of many of the bodies endocrines and vitamins.

It may take some time to devise a complete regiment, but I am attempting to frame a basic outline that could possible be the cure for 90% of most non age related illness, even cancer.

To restore proper skin ecology I am sure that science could develop a type of natural lotion made with animal fat, cholesterol, with some clinically tested proto vitamin producing probiotic bacteria. (My million dollar idea)
Anyone want to invest in a paleo friendly vitamin D promoting skin salve?

Once properly salved up then you can begin the treatment with full body sun exposure (for as long as the individual can tolerate without burning).

 For optimal results it will be necessary to custom fit each patient with a more  paleoish diet, along with a regiment of moderate exercise, and a few other protocol.

I could write a book based on some of these simple steps that would be a blueprint for optimal health.

[KD]

Without the bio-matrix protecting ones skin combine with the lack of vital levels of cholesterol and animal fat, many people have lost their ability to develop healthy levels of melanin in order to protect themselves from the suns rays for long enough to begin to build up their Vitamin D levels.

the thing is, is that most people (even "raw paleo" people) will never change to getting the proper amount of sunshine daily. Its true that bathing after sun exposure is known to halt some D production but its more or less proven that bathing days after does next to nothing in terms of how that previous D was absorbed. It could be that sustained non-bathing has some additional bonus, but its clearly not necessary for people say - living in California - to get abundant D, so you are stretching somewhat above in terms of what is needed to get D from the sun. What you are saying could have other more dramatic health bonuses, then again there are legitimate criticisms against non bathing for modern people (removing toxins from the environment - or exiting internal stuff - contained in the skin)

Its true that many people (particularly those that refuse to supplement) will burn when there D is low and less so if they slowly build up their levels naturally or with supplements. Even Northern Caucasians, if they have already decent serum levels, shouldn't burn in the high sun - which you are right that extended exposure then is usually necessary for cultivating the most D. The Inuit did in fact get quite a bit of this D from the sun. Regular low sun (winter or non peak times) is still helpful, and of course traditional peoples of all locales got tons of that.

It sounds like your marketing idea (being a lotion that goes on the skin - which is usually seen as a no no) probably would be snubbed in the same way by most natural health people that would snub supplements, of course also repulsive to veg folks. If it worked and you could have it made cheaply with ingredients that were relatively unprocessed it could be something I could see the larger paleo community perhaps being into. Then again it sounds pretty expensive to cover ones body with such ingredients regularly. Soft-gels are like $10  a year and represent a very small amount of matter entering your body in contrast.

[Dorothy]

How wonderful that you have put so much mind power into this issue Sabertooth! You've given some great food for thought.

What came to my mind when I read your idea was two things that I have read in other places: 1. The "average" person makes 10,000 IU of vit d in 15 minute mid-day full sun exposure - yet few do it. Your cream would necessitate changing the very activity that is the problem in the first place. Granted, it could make it so that even less time or days in the sun is needed and therefore be a help to some. 2. I read that there are a BILLION people in the west that are vitamin d deficient. Thems is lots of customers! But, the big issue is getting out in the middle of the day without much clothing which is hard enough at work, and then you are adding putting on a lotion. What people might be willing to do is put it on their face and arms so that they don't have to take off clothing and then wash it off when they go back into the building to work again (or not if it absorbs well, feels good and smells good). If you also prove that it is a moisturizer and will keep skin young and supple - that would be a really big boost to openness in our society. Your idea I think would be most popular with the non-paleo regular folk. Creams are popular in general, but not so much with paleos - except maybe this one if they understand that it is for when they must shower every day and so it's a compromise. Hint - make it one of the socially accepted smells like lavender etc. - but only from pure essential oils that are good for the skin.

I for one probably would buy it. I don't like sitting around basking - I like to move and work outside. When I am outside gardening even in the hottest summer weather I wear long light pants to protect from the large array of nasty bugs here. My getup all year round is long pants and a tank top or a tee shirt and only in the real cold part of the year a long-sleeve shirt. I would buy the cream to put on my arms to help them make more vitamin d while I am working outside or walking place to place since I simply do not get full body sun. In short, your cream could help people to get more out of their partial exposures. Makes me wonder about even New Yorkers walking around getting more than they could otherwise.

[sabertooth]

Sabertooths salve may not be destined for mass production nor is its creator likely to get a noble prize in medicine, but it could be made in small batches and used among extreme health enthusiast. I stand by my belief that regular sun bathing can be extremely good for overall health, as long as its done responsibly. Optimizing the condition of the skins surface for optimal vitamin synthesis prior to sun bathing seems a   reasonable idea.   

Hypothetically( My product is made from.)
Sun dried egg yolks from highmeat fed chickens. Whipped with blended animal fat, and sabertooths very own skin shavings. 

Who wouldn't want to cover themselves with that concoction?

The whole appeal of my product is that it replenishes some of the elements that promote vitamin D production and protect the skin, that are removed by regular bathing. City life is toxic, so bathing is nessisary for many people and we are often herded indoors and see very little sun each Day. My product could be used to help Normal people( in the alternative health community) maximize the benefits of what limited sun exposure they receive, and minimize whatever risk there may be with UV exposure.

[Dorothy]

Hypothetically( My product is made from.)
Sun dried egg yolks from highmeat fed chickens. Whipped with blended animal fat, and sabertooths very own skin shavings. 

Who wouldn't want to cover themselves with that concoction?

Well, I have egg yolks from my chickens (but they don't get high meat - just regular old fish and bugs) and I have suet that I'm a little mystified what to do with. The only thing I don't have is your skin shavings Sabertooth! Is that supposed to be for the bacteria?

Has anyone determined what bacteria is on the human skin when not showering that helps with vitamin D production?

I could add my own essential oils - but lavender I realized wouldn't be good since it is such a good bacteria fighter. Maybe vanilla or coconut oil!

I've never tried yolks and suet on the skin. Has anyone? What does it feel like? Mabye yolks and coconut oil would be another choice. Doesn't that fat and oil though block some of the sun's rays?

[jessica]

how about just don't shower, use a skin brush instead..............
you do get this extra skin thing going on, i swear when i shower i feel sick and vulnerable(in city water at least) hot springs is amazing though:)

[Dorothy]

Isn't Sabertooth talking about never showering and building his skin stuff over years? I do shower now and then - but not nearly as often as most. Baths and showers can be an almost spiritual cleansing experience for me when I really want one. Hot springs would be better of course, but I don't have a hot spring.

I love brushing my skin -- more than my hair!   

[PaleoPhil]

Well, I have egg yolks from my chickens (but they don't get high meat - just regular old fish and bugs) and I have suet that I'm a little mystified what to do with.

It's not the most interesting tasting stuff, but I find fresh grassfed suet to provide me with the most health and well-being benefits and best skin treatment I have ever tried (and I have tried many foods and skin treatments--yes, including EVCO, jojoba, etc.). I find that cocoa butter, which is another largely-saturated fat, works well on my skin too.

I also find that if I let the suet air out for a number of days and chew it extensively before swallowing it, that it maximizes the pleasure and provides a bit of a cinnamon flavor and the most well-being. The saying "chew the fat" doesn't exist for nothing.

Interestingly, I find that mixing raw eggs with raw marrow and raw fermented honey also produces a mild cinnamon flavor.

I've never tried yolks and suet on the skin. Has anyone? What does it feel like? Mabye yolks and coconut oil would be another choice. Doesn't that fat and oil though block some of the sun's rays?

Absolutely. Raw grassfed suet is the best stuff on my skin that I've tried yet, and yolks are good too. The suet feels quite a bit like cocoa butter. I like how suet and cocoa butter absorb wonderfully into my skin and don't leave a greasy film like most commercial skin lotions. Suet and cocoa butter are my two favorite skin treatments so far, and I have tried many. It's not surprising, really, given that the human subcutaneous layer contains plenty of saturated fat.

[Dorothy]

I also find that if I let the suet air out for a number of days and chew it extensively before swallowing it, that it maximizes the pleasure and provides a bit of a cinnamon flavor and the most well-being. The saying "chew the fat" doesn't exist for nothing.

Interestingly, I find that mixing raw eggs with raw marrow and raw fermented honey also produces a mild cinnamon flavor.
The suet feels quite a bit like cocoa butter. I like how suet and cocoa butter absorb wonderfully into my skin and don't leave a greasy film like most commercial skin lotions.

Thanks for the tip about sitting out for a few days and chewing extensively on the suet. I'm going to try that - and especially about mixing the suet with marrow, egg yolks and honey. Sounds very yummy. If the cinnammon flavor isn't strong enough I just made the kick-ass cinnamon tincture that I can add a drop of to the mix.   That sounds amazing.

Coconut oil doesn't seem to absorb well enough for me but maybe suet would be better. I'm going to try that for sure after my next shower. Thanks a big bunch Phil!

[PaleoPhil]

mixing the suet with marrow, egg yolks and honey

I don't mix in suet with those others, as suet isn't soft enough. I tend to cut the suet into short, small strips, like I do when I have some raw cheese.

Coconut oil doesn't seem to absorb well enough for me but maybe suet would be better. I'm going to try that for sure after my next shower. Thanks a big bunch Phil!

One thing about suet is that it is a bit crumbly (although the wild deer suet I had was less crumbly) and a little sticky when first applying, but it seems to absorb even better than cocoa butter and produce slightly better results. I tend to use cocoa butter outside the house, and suet, cocoa butter or less-greasy-than-avg lotion inside the house. Suet is a convenient skin product  in the house--when I'm eating it I can just rub some on me. Wouldn't do that in public, though. LOL

[Dorothy]

Now I just have to eat raw suet and take some and rub it on me in public one day! 

 

[Suiren]

I have a tiny question about Vitamin D and maybe someone can answer this:

It seems my skin needs a lot of day light to be healthier and more clear. So I was guessing I am lacking Vit. D. and started supplementing, which helps some, but when I spend the day outside my skin is even better.
I am wondering if I need more Vitamin D., or if my supplement is maybe not the most potent type, not absorbed right? I take 5000 IU a day.

I know from past test results that my vitamin D. level was always extremely low, so I want to add more Vit. D rich foods as well as supplement, but I am wondering "how much is too much"?..
What about Zinc oxide based Sunscreen? I use it sparingly since Sun can also cause damage and aging.

Staying out all day is really not an option, too hot in summer ( I am getting too tan ), too cold in winter. Long walks don't seem to be enough, as well as 20 mins. of outdoors breakfast without sunscreen.. tried that. 

[cherimoya_kid]

Eating high-fat/low-carb seems to help with increasing the effectiveness of vitamin D.  Try that.

[Dorothy]

I have a tiny question about Vitamin D and maybe someone can answer this:

It seems my skin needs a lot of day light to be healthier and more clear. So I was guessing I am lacking Vit. D. and started supplementing, which helps some, but when I spend the day outside my skin is even better.
I am wondering if I need more Vitamin D., or if my supplement is maybe not the most potent type, not absorbed right? I take 5000 IU a day.

I know from past test results that my vitamin D. level was always extremely low, so I want to add more Vit. D rich foods as well as supplement, but I am wondering "how much is too much"?..
What about Zinc oxide based Sunscreen? I use it sparingly since Sun can also cause damage and aging.

Staying out all day is really not an option, too hot in summer ( I am getting too tan ), too cold in winter. Long walks don't seem to be enough, as well as 20 mins. of outdoors breakfast without sunscreen.. tried that. 

My internet research taught me that we can't get much vit d from any kind from food although some people will disagree with that. I'm just going by what the number one researcher that I trust says. 15 minutes of sun in summer however can generate 15,000 IU of vit D. But if you aren't producing due to a physiological problem or can't get the sun then supplementation seems to be the best option. It's hard to overdose with vitamin D UNLESS you don't have enough magnesium. Learned that one the hard way with Brian. So if  you are going to supplement make sure that you take magnesium too and that you eat some fat like Cheri said so that the D can be absorbed.

Most people with your skin tone won't have to spend the whole day outdoors - just a matter of minutes unless you have a biological impairment with producing or absorbing vitamin D.

Brian's allergies have been helped tremendously from vitamin D supplementation.

As far as skin health - I think there is more to sun than just vitamin D. But it is true that you would generate as much vitamin D as you need in the sun whereas your pill has a limit. That's the beauty of using the real sun instead of a supplement.... if you can.

I don't know about zinc oxide. I know that regular suntan lotion is a total catastrophe and should be avoided totally. Anyone know about using zinc oxide to prevent sun exposure and what effects it would have on the body? 

Suiren - have you gotten your vitamin D tested since starting on 5000 IU?

[Suiren]

Eating high-fat/low-carb seems to help with increasing the effectiveness of vitamin D.  Try that.

I am eating a higher amount of carbs for the weight gain and dealing with hypoglycemia. Both are big problems. I get most of my carbs from carrots, since these are readily available and affordable.

Dorothy
So 15 000 IU is not too much then huh?  I have only seen supplements that provide up to 10 000 IU.
I have not gotten my vitamin D. tested in a while, but maybe I should...I "need" to see a doctor for a bunch of things but I don't feel like going (thyroid levels, pituitary tumor)
I read somewhere that people with thyroid conditions, specifically Hashimoto's can have a harder time producing Vitamin D. I don't have Hashimoto's anymore, just a few anti bodies left last time I was checked, but maybe it can still be hard for me to produce Vitamin D? It could take more time for me to heal.

As far as my skin color goes - it reacts different to sun than most would expect. I know light people tend to burn quickly and probably need less sun, but my skin won't burn unless I spend a long time in the direct sun, during a hot day. Instead it will very gradually get more and more yellow ( ) and then develop a tan that can get not only get very dark (it looks horrible, like dark toast) but also lasts literally forever...I will still have last summers tan the next year.
If I "avoid" sun however, wear sun screen...I will stay pretty light with just a hint of yellow.
Not sure what causes this, and if it is just normal for me...
I try to make sure I don't get too much sun, since I have seen on people around me that it can also cause significant damage (a friend of mine has a very weird, blotchy, red and brown skin tone with little broken blood vessels, ONLY where the sun hits all the time, since she wears low cut shirts and spends a lot of time in the sun... )

The zinc based sunscreen seemed good according to what I researched. It is a physical sun block, does not enter the first skin layers, does not need reapplication, does not have any chemicals that would cause an unnatural, deeper penetration of the substances into the skin. It also has aloe, coconut oil, olive oil...I liked all the ingredients and I use it as a moisturizer since my skin needs to be balanced a bit, at least right now (oily and dry)
I know the harm regular sun screens can do. :/

And true, there must be more to Sun than Vit. D. Is there maybe a thread about the sun and health already? It would be interesting to find out more and debunk that recent myth, that sun is just ALL bad.

[RawZi]

Eating high-fat/low-carb seems to help with increasing the effectiveness of vitamin D.  Try that.

    Especially away from grains and gluten etc.  I think many people do well for a while making D in their skin.. eating a lot of fruit if they have enough of the other nutrients.

[RawZi]

Now I just have to eat raw suet and take some and rub it on me in public one day! 

    I ate a big plate full of primal diet's (raw slimy sticky smelly fermented) highmeat in public in my home town here in a bustling stripmall. Don't ask..but it all went very well. You can do it Dorothy!

[RawZi]

    I don't think my hair's seen a brush since the late seventies.

     I know a very little about dry skinbrushing. If using marrow or other RPF skin "cream" in the sun does it change the skinbrushing?

Isn't Sabertooth talking about never showering and building his skin stuff over years? I do shower now and then - but not nearly as often as most. Baths and showers can be an almost spiritual cleansing experience for me when I really want one. Hot springs would be better of course, but I don't have a hot spring.

I love brushing my skin -- more than my hair!   

[Suiren]

    Especially away from grains and gluten etc.  I think many people do well for a while making D in their skin.. eating a lot of fruit if they have enough of the other nutrients.

Yes, no grains and gluten either, I get carbs from Paleo foods. Not all perfectly Raw Paleo but nothing too bad.

[Chris]

What about Zinc oxide based Sunscreen? I use it sparingly since Sun can also cause damage and aging.

Hi Suiren,
I've been using Keys Solar RX for a number of years now. I suggest you check it out. I think it's the BEST Sunblock on the market! It's excellent for Problem Skin too! I use it everyday, rain or shine. It's excellent for the skin and it's ALL Natural.

http://www.keys-soap.com/solarrx.html

[Dorothy]

Suiren - the body ITSELF can make 15,000 IU in a short time in the sun - but that doesn't mean you should ever take a supplement that high! The body knows how much it needs. The problem with taking a pill is that it's not controlled by the body and you can overdose. Very rarely does anyone suggest more than 5,000 IU - especially without being tested regularly. Also, if there isn't enough magnesium you can make for real problems when the body doesn't have enough magnesium to work with that vit d supplement. That's why it's better to get out in the sun if you can and even then make sure you have enough magnesium. 

When it comes to high fat - I think the trick is to make sure you eat some fat when you take your supplement. A little hunk of suet or an egg yolk is pretty convenient and easy for this.

Sounds like you have a unique skin-type. I wonder if it will change as you move forward with your raw paleo diet?

When it comes to suntan lotions besides perhaps the kind that Cheri posted (thanks for that link btw!) they have recently figured out that suntan lotions block the good rays that make vitamin d and let in the harmful rays. That's why skin cancer rates have soared since the advent of suntan lotions.  Vitamin d deficiency has been linked to cancer in study after study.

For women I think that perhaps the best kind of sun protectant (if you are going to use one at all) for the face would be mineral makeup. It's just ground up rocks (the good brands that is) and it is a natural sun protectant. It can also be very purdy - as it's not like regular makeup. It kind of works it's way in with your natural oils changing to your skin color and adapting to your skin - even different areas of your skin.

For me, all I have to do is get myself into the sun every day increasing it just a little at a time. I'm not convinced that it will ruin skin if you are eating a good diet. It just feels too good to be as bad as they make it out to be. I'm also much more interested in the insides of my body than the outside. A lot of good having pretty skin will do me in a coffin because I don't have enough vitamin d!  I really am working on being a bit more vain - or maybe I should say - having basic self esteem/care. Part of the problem is that what I've been taught my whole life to be "taking care of myself" just feels bad. It's really nice that we are discussing healthier forms of self-care. I remember once when I was 100% raw putting on suntan lotion and feeling sick for three days after.

I finally went out and bought a suit for sun bathing but was just a little too late in the season to find a lounger to lay on. The chickens make it impossible to lay on the ground. Still searching!

I would highly suggest keeping away from any suntan lotion you find in your regular store ESPECIALLY when you are breast feeding. I'm even concerned about the vitamin d supplementation when breast feeding. Have you looked into this Suiren? Is there some part of your body that you wouldn't mind exposing to the sun even if it did turn it yellow and dark? I know it sounds silly to go out into the sun with makeup on your face and other parts of your body and expose others - but you gotta work with what your reality is. When you get dark you need even more time in the sun of course. That's the big problem for dark-skinned people. They need much more sun to make the same amount of vit d as me. I'm very light-skinned and can burn very easily if I don't work my way up to a base tan slowly.

Good luck with your vitamin d Suiren. Please do keep me posted if you get your levels checked. It's probably a really good idea with the issues you have had - especially the pre-cancerous cells. You want to make sure your supplementation is working.

[Dorothy]

    I ate a big plate full of primal diet's (raw slimy sticky smelly fermented) highmeat in public in my home town here in a bustling stripmall. Don't ask..but it all went very well. You can do it Dorothy!

Ha ha - well if you can do THAT - what's a little suet? lol.

[Dorothy]

    I don't think my hair's seen a brush since the late seventies.

     I know a very little about dry skinbrushing. If using marrow or other RPF skin "cream" in the sun does it change the skinbrushing?

My guess is that if the fats etc. that are placed on the body are fully absorbed - then it would not effect skin brushing. You wouldn't want to skin brush I would think right after applying a fat though.

You just brush towards your heart. That's what they say anyway. Feels real good.

[cherimoya_kid]

My internet research taught me that we can't get much vit d from any kind from food although some people will disagree with that.

There are some kinds of fatty fish that have a lot of vitamin D.  That's about it, as far as I know, though.

[PaleoPhil]

Raw Atlantic Herring provides the most vitamin D with 1628IU (1667% DV) per 100 gram serving. It is followed by Pickled Herring with 680IU (113% DV) per 100g serving .... Raw wild caught Eastern Oysters provide 320IU (80% DV) per 100 gram serving, 269IU (67% DV) in six medium oysters. http://www.healthaliciousness.com/articles/high-vitamin-D-foods.php