Is it dangerous to eat too much meat?

[Iguana]

I can not understand that you still believe this illusion. The sugar from domesticated fruits ALWAYS overrides everything else.

I totally disagree. I know very well when I’ve eaten too much sweet foods and I spontaneously look everywhere for other foods, such as vegetables, meat, fish, eggs. Aged meat, eggs, tuna, shellfish are extremely attractive to me, often more than fruits.

For example, last night I felt that I ate a bit too much fruits (much latter after my dinner including mutton). So today for lunch I was somewhat repealed by all sweet fruits and I ate a lot of scallops instead, plus two avocados.

And that's the main reason why an 'instincto diet' never works as long as you don't use your intellect to limit your instinctive overloads.

Of course you got to use your intellect too, if only to avoid as much as possible the most artificially selected fruits – and above all to understand the theory! Instinctive nutrition doesn’t mean that you have to behave idiotically  ! Quite on the opposite, you need all your intelligence to practice it correctly in this so called civilized world. Instinct and intelligence are not antagonists!

What should be avoided is the conventional dietary way of thinking, I mean: “I should eat this stuff because the experts say it brings essential nutrients and it’s good for health, or for this or that… and I should avoid this other stuff because experts say it contains antinutrients.”

[goodsamaritan]

I totally disagree. I know very well when I’ve eaten too much sweet foods and I spontaneously look everywhere for other foods, such as vegetables, meat, fish, eggs. Aged meat, eggs, tuna, shellfish are extremely attractive to me, often more than fruits.

I have this same experience as Iguana.

Such talk of anti-fruit makes me believe the fruits you get are far different from mine.

[Paleo Donk]

For example, last night I felt that I ate a bit too much fruits (much latter after my dinner including mutton). So today for lunch I was somewhat repealed by all sweet fruits and I ate a lot of scallops instead, plus two avocados.
Of course you got to use your intellect too, if only to avoid as much as possible the most artificially selected fruits – and above all to understand the theory! Instinctive nutrition doesn’t mean that you have to behave idiotically  ! Quite on the opposite, you need all your intelligence to practice it correctly in this so called civilized world. Instinct and intelligence are not antagonists!

Have you ever considered the fact that when you get 'tired' of a particular food you are simply listening to your internal hedonic system crying out for a different experience - something new, different, exciting to the pleasurable senses and absolutely nothing to do with whether or not a particular food is the most 'optimally nutrient dense'.

Its as though your survival systems have been kicked into high gear by the fact that their are a multitude of different options for nutrition.  Your hedonic system gets an overload of sensory imputs from the selections and simply chooses that new food that gives it the most pleasure.

This is very similar to having sex with a very healthy breasted women for a few weeks at a time before tiring of her and subsequently going to a bar and picking out another woman for another few weeks or months (whichever time period is working at the moment). It will always appear that the new woman is more satisfying than the last but it doesn't mean that she offers any real advantage to your happiness - she is simply appealing to your deeply hardened survival mechanisms and seed spreading that is inherent in all of us.

Going from food to food instincto style could be no different than going from woman to woman. Our attachment to food is similar to that of sex and we will get messages from the brain through taste/smell that will alert us that a particular food will keep us alive longer just like a new woman will help spread our genes further and further.

Unfortunately I think that neither strategy (changing from woman to woman or from food to food) will provide further happiness or health than simply sticking to more or less similar food and woman combinations for a lifetime.

Essentially instinctos chasing after different more appealing fruits are not very different than sex addicts going from one woman to the next once tiring of the current woman. No different than drug addicts going from one drug to another. Well perhaps different in the fact that this addiction is not going to lead to overdose but it does lead to denial, defensiveness, guruness and expertness and unwillingness to change.

[Paleo Donk]

For example: This exact example does not matter, its simply trying to show as an exercise in thought of what might happen to your internal survival systems when on the instincto diet

In this example when the word "I" is used, it will represent the brain speaking.

When I use "Iguana", it will be Iguanas body, senses, emotions and so forth (the end result of the messages the brain is sending

Whenever you have had avocados for 4 days straight, your brain is thinking "damn, I know these avocados are giving me some pleasure and survival, I don't need to keep sending in spikes of dopamine and glutamine to let Iguana know that these avocados are keeping him alive. I don't have to keep the senses heightened through taste and smell anymore. I can relax them, since I know that Iguana is safe.

Now after 4 days and the survival systems are calmed down and food is relatively bland tasting and there is no dopamine kick anymore Iguana will perhaps come across a piece of salmon.

When Iguana sees this salmon his brain will say, "damn, what is this salmon, it is quite different than those avocados. This salmon could provide a much needed source of nutrition if avocados become scarce. This salmon is calorie dense and full of protein and other great sources of nutrition. Let me make sure that Iguana knows that this salmon is very important for survival. I will now heighten his senses both taste and smell and give him a nice shot of dopamine (which makes Iguana feel good) and a shot of glutamine (which makes Iguana remember) so that  Iguana can survive optimally.

Now Iguana thinks that salmon has some important nutrients that were missing from the avocado but in reality its really the hedonic system that is deeply embedded in all of us that is alerting the organism(Iguana) that a particular food is going to keep him alive longer.

Eventually the salmon will no longer provide the same dopamine kick and the glutamine will not be needed as it is stored in memory for the time being. The senses become less heightened and return to normal until the next food comes along and the pattern repeats ad infinitum.

Please feel free to rebut this argument

[goodsamaritan]

I like the variety of women part.
Although the objective of that is spreading the genes.

I think what we are all gunning for here go in different directions such as:

- longevity
- healing
- strength
- athleticism (in different directions)
- etc.

[zeno]

That's why I recommend to check regularly with wild meat (goose is ideal!)

Why do you recommend wild goose?

[PaleoPhil]

Wait a minute, didn't you also complain about over-complicating things? 

Ooops, my bad, Lowenherz. I misread what you had written. You said NOT complicated. So very long posts are OK as long as they are not complicated. Got it.

Only problem with that is that nature IS infinitely complex, as I mentioned before, so the trick will be to somehow translate natural phenomena into relatively simple language without oversimplifying or leaving out key points. Not an easy task and one that even the best science writers struggle with, but I will strive for it.

[GCB]

Why do you recommend wild goose?

It was a hint about your experience. Birds are better for our immune system because their proteins are more remote from ours than proteins of mammals, and therefore they induce less confusion by our immune system. Wild goose has a very strong taste (much more than chicken or beef) which makes the instinctive stop very sure, so you couldn’t eat more than a palm.

Good Samaritan:
You certainly are right when you say American fruits cannot compare with yours from Philippines.
A very simple way to know if you eat too much fat is greasy hair or skin, particularly nose and brow. But the taste and consistency indicate it too: as soon as it appears less tasteful and less melt-in-the-mouth, you begin overeating.
I’m afraid the principle one must eat a LOT of animal fat is a new urban legend in the world of dietetics…

Paleo donk:
Experiment instincto first and speak later! For sure, your body will see things more clearly than your brain.
Now, if you find a woman who feels happy all her life with an unique paleo dink, it’s all right!

[goodsamaritan]

It was a hint about your experience. Birds are better for our immune system because their proteins are more remote from ours than proteins of mammals, and therefore they induce less confusion by our immune system. Wild goose has a very strong taste (much more than chicken or beef) which makes the instinctive stop very sure, so you couldn’t eat more than a palm.

If wild birds' proteins are remote...

...then wild ocean fish / clams / oysters / shrimp / crab must be remote from us as well?

[PaleoPhil]

It was a hint about your experience. Birds are better for our immune system because their proteins are more remote from ours than proteins of mammals, and therefore they induce less confusion by our immune system.

I prefer the taste of wild land mammal meats to wild bird meats, so per your law of the alimentary instinct, shouldn't I eat more of the mammal meats, despite concerns about the immunogenicity of the proteins?

[GCB]

If wild birds' proteins are remote...
...then wild ocean fish / clams / oysters / shrimp / crab must be remote from us as well?

Absolutely ! It seems actually those proteins don’t have the pernicious effects the mammals' proteins have.

I prefer the taste of wild land mammal meats to wild bird meats, so per your law of the alimentary instinct, shouldn't I eat more of the mammal meats, despite concerns about the immunogenicity of the proteins?

If in this moment you prefer wild land mammals, then eat wild land mammals. When your need for this class of proteins will be covered, you’ll probably often prefer other sources, like birds or shellfish or arthropods or fish, or nuts.

However, this self equilibration doesn’t work rightly if you systematically lack other important classes of nutrients, like vegetables, fruits, etc. In this case, your organism can try to compensate the lacks and remain a too long time on the same source, with the deficiencies it may cause in the longer term.

It is also possible that your appetite decreases because you lack certain substances needed to digest those provided by your diet, or you become bulimic if your organism is trying to cope with a too restricted class of nutrients. Unilateral inputs always result eventually to disturbances of one kind or another.

[Löwenherz]

  You are a fool, you know. Any basic search online will show you that cooked animal foods, especially cooked animal fats such as heated dairy products, have the highest load of heat-created toxins, much much higher than cooked plant foods, however PUFA-rich they might be:-

You missed the point.

PLANT PUFAs in higher amounts are already extremely unhealthy in their RAW state. You don't need to cook them to make them toxic.

If you still don't want to believe this, try it.

As for my own experience, I did far better on a (largely-cooked) 100 percent vegan diet than I ever did on cooked-palaeo, for instance. In short, the whole PUFA issue is a waste of time.

I can't see any logic in these two sentences.

Löwenherz

[Löwenherz]

Such talk of anti-fruit makes me believe the fruits you get are far different from mine.

Of course, but there are also other factors. Please don't forget our metabolism. It makes a big difference if you eat papayas and mangos in a hot and humid tropical climate with max sunshine or if you eat such fruit sugar at zero degrees Celsius in the darkness of northern Europe.

Löwenherz

[GCB]

PLANT PUFAs in higher amounts are already extremely unhealthy in their RAW state. You don't need to cook them to make them toxic

Please indicate an example, so that we understand what you mean. I think we don't speak about the same thing.

[GCB]

Paleophil,
Didn't I answer you here?
 http://www.rawpaleodietforum.com/general-discussion/raw-paleo-diet-is-mimicking-the-garden-of-eden-times/msg80703/#msg80703
(second part!)

[Ferocious]

Paleophil,
Didn't I answer you here?
 http://www.rawpaleodietforum.com/general-discussion/raw-paleo-diet-is-mimicking-the-garden-of-eden-times/msg80703/#msg80703
(second part!)

Thanks for posting here! You're an inspiration to me

[PaleoPhil]

Ah, thanks. Sorry , I tried to read the forum via iPod, which has a rather small screen, and I thought that post was only addressed to GS, but I see it also responded to my question.

Absolutely ! It seems actually those proteins don’t have the pernicious effects the mammals' proteins have.

My goodness, mammals' proteins are sounding worse and worse. Are they really pernicious?

If in this moment you prefer wild land mammals, then eat wild land mammals. When your need for this class of proteins will be covered, you’ll probably often prefer other sources, like birds or shellfish or arthropods or fish, or nuts.

I do like variety, though my overall preference for red meats over others hasn't changed.

However, this self equilibration doesn’t work rightly if you systematically lack other important classes of nutrients, like vegetables, fruits, etc. In this case, your organism can try to compensate the lacks and remain a too long time on the same source, with the deficiencies it may cause in the longer term.

I do eat high quality raw fruits and veggies and I do use my alliesthetic mechanism to help determine which ones to buy and eat, so I'm in step with you there.

It is also possible that your appetite decreases because you lack certain substances needed to digest those provided by your diet, or you become bulimic if your organism is trying to cope with a too restricted class of nutrients. Unilateral inputs always result eventually to disturbances of one kind or another.

I like other meats and fish and eat a variety of raw foods, I just prefer the taste of red meats over other meats and fish and I don't think this is particularly uncommon. I've never been bulimic or had any other eating disorder, luckily.

[GCB]

My goodness, mammals' proteins are sounding worse and worse. Are they really pernicious?

Mammals' proteins can be of high nutritional value. The effect of too much and too frequent intake of mammals' proteins may be worse than that of other proteins, because of the similarity with our own proteins. Plants' proteins would be the most remote, so the least dangerous. But experiments systematically show they are not sufficient. The point is not the kind, but the quantity and the repetitiveness of each food intake. So, your fondness for variety is surely the best deal.

I do like variety, though my overall preference for red meats over others hasn't changed.

The only problem is then the non natural taste of domesticated animals’ meat: the instinctive stop may not warn you correctly of an overload. Thus you are better of with game meat, at least intermittently in order to acknowledge a potential overdose of mammals’ meat.

A question: for how many years have you been eating raw red meat regularly?

[PaleoPhil]

Mammals' proteins can be of high nutritional value. The effect of too much and too frequent intake of mammals' proteins may be worse than that of other proteins, because of the similarity with our own proteins. Plants' proteins would be the most remote, so the least dangerous.

Can you point to any evidence other than your experience and that of the dieters you supervised to support this hypothesis? My own experience has been that plant proteins have been much more problematic for my immune system than mammal proteins.

The only problem is then the non natural taste of domesticated animals’ meat: the instinctive stop may not warn you correctly of an overload.

I also prefer the taste of wild red meats to other wild meats, so this is a nonfactor in my taste preference. I agree that wild meats are likely superior to domestic, especially when the domestic animals are fed diets that differ greatly from their natural wild diets and the wild game are eating wild foods and getting enough to eat.

A question: for how many years have you been eating raw red meat regularly?

A little over 2 years. Do you hypothesize that at some point I will start to prefer wild fowl to wild mammal meats? If so, what is your best estimate of how long it will take for that to occur?

[GCB]

Can you point to any evidence other than your experience and that of the dieters you supervised to support this hypothesis?

The instincto diet allows to observe some facts which remain unobservable when masked by all disorders induced by a “standard” diet. So I could easily see a lot of cases which showed me this effect on immune system and then I formulated an adequate theory. Medicine doesn’t deal with food antigens so that the link between food and immune system disorders couldn’t be taken into account. Only one researcher (Jean Seignalet http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nutrition_Seignalet), who had watched one of my lectures made a series of experiences with auto-immune diseases suffering patients and could verify the phenomenon.

My own experience has been that plant proteins have been much more problematic for my immune system than mammal proteins.

Tell me please which plant proteins you ate, how you assured your regulation, which guaranties of non processing you had, and which symptoms you could notice. 

I also prefer the taste of wild red meats to other wild meats, so this is a nonfactor in my taste preference.

I think you didn’t understand what I mean: it's not a difference between red or white meat, but the fact that the genetic drift of domesticated animals causes their meat to lack a normal instinctive stop (whatever the color of their meat). When you talked about red meat, didn’t you mostly refer to the consumption of beef?

I agree that wild meats are likely superior to domestic, especially when the domestic animals are fed diets that differ greatly from their natural wild diets and the wild game are eating wild foods and getting enough to eat.

You’re right, denatured diet modifies the nutritional value and taste of domestic animals, but genetics does much more. Wild boars living in nature or fed processed food are different in taste and diverge somewhat in causing an instinctive stop, but that difference is perhaps ten times less than between wild boar and pork when both have been fed the same kind of food.

A little over 2 years. Do you hypothesize that at some point I will start to prefer wild fowl to wild mammal meats? If so, what is your best estimate of how long it will take for that to occur?

Honestly, it’s very short to draw conclusions. I waited twenty years before I published mine.
No one can hypothesize anything about your future preferences, everybody being different  –  and differently intoxicated from previous diets. But if someone persists with meat of domesticated animals for several  years, he/she will never discover the true taste of wild game because of a likely overload of animal proteins.

[goodsamaritan]

But if someone persists with meat of domesticated animals for several  years, he/she will never discover the true taste of wild game because of a likely overload of animal proteins.

I have no access to wild game land animals.

Where I live, the only wild game I can get is from the ocean, the far away lakes and far away rivers. And ocean stuff is plentiful I can get every day.

[van]

Gcb, what are your thoughts regarding American Indians eating in some areas mostly Buffalo,  well,  I suppose they also ate birds, rabbits, turtles, snakes,  ok I answered my own question, but some really subsisted on Buffalo, of which I mostly due during the summer months when the animals are killed on green pastures, and mostly eat cow during the winter months.   I live in Northern ca. and can get cow eating green, not brown dry grass, all year around.     I don't find the stop of a buffalo any different to a cow, the buffalo being almost non messed with in terms of breed stocks.. 

[PaleoPhil]

The instincto diet allows to observe some facts which remain unobservable when masked by all disorders induced by a “standard” diet. So I could easily see a lot of cases which showed me this effect on immune system and then I formulated an adequate theory. Medicine doesn’t deal with food antigens so that the link between food and immune system disorders couldn’t be taken into account.

It doesn't often, but it sometimes does, as do some scientists (Loren Cordain and Boyd Eaton spring to mind). I think I know what you mean, though, as modern medicine unfortunately tends to downplay food antigens and typically speculatively claim that cooking neutralizes enough of them to not be concerned.

Only one researcher (Jean Seignalet http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nutrition_Seignalet), who had watched one of my lectures made a series of experiences with auto-immune diseases suffering patients and could verify the phenomenon.

Unfortunately, he passed away, as you likely know. Did he publish his findings on this?

Tell me please which plant proteins you ate, how you assured your regulation, which guaranties of non processing you had, and which symptoms you could notice.

I didn't assure anything, I just found that wheat, soy and even rice were more of a problem for me than raw meat, and still are. Even legumes that are edible raw and fruits are less-well tolerated by me than raw meat, fat, organs and eggs.

I think you didn’t understand what I mean: it's not a difference between red or white meat, but the fact that the genetic drift of domesticated animals causes their meat to lack a normal instinctive stop (whatever the color of their meat).

So red meats are OK as long as they're wild or nearly so?

When you talked about red meat, didn’t you mostly refer to the consumption of beef?

Also venison, bison, elk, moose, bear. I'm not really big on moose or bear meat, but the others are yum, yum. Wild venison meat is my favorite so far. I do like duck meat too, just not as much as venison. And wild deer suet is the best suet I've tried so far. It was beautiful to behold. I like wild boar meat too, but I think that is considered a white meat, yes? Of the fowl, duck meat is my favorite so far and it is darker in color than the white-meat fowl.

Honestly, it’s very short to draw conclusions. I waited twenty years before I published mine.

So two years is not enough time to rely on the alliesthetic mechanism? This is quite surprising after reading your published materials and forum posts. When does the alliesthetic mechanism finally become reliable? Only after 20 years, or any sooner?

Gcb, what are your thoughts regarding American Indians eating in some areas mostly Buffalo,  well,  I suppose they also ate birds, rabbits, turtles, snakes,  ok I answered my own question, but some really subsisted on Buffalo, of which I mostly due during the summer months when the animals are killed on green pastures, and mostly eat cow during the winter months.   I live in Northern ca. and can get cow eating green, not brown dry grass, all year around.     I don't find the stop of a buffalo any different to a cow, the buffalo being almost non messed with in terms of breed stocks..

This is an excellent question, thank you Van. I have heard that the Lakota Oyate used to eat so much buffalo that they were sometimes called the buffalo people (because they have taken in the spirits of the buffalo when they ate them), and that they therefore regard the buffalo as relatives. They claim that the buffalo meat, fat, etc. is "pejuta wašte," good medicine and the source of strength of their warriors.

Mind you, I'm not trying to advocate for any "noble savage" notions or any such nonsense. I just don't dismiss thousands of years of a relatively healthy traditional people's experience without good reason. That would seem to be just as unreasonable, especially given that hominins have been eating raw mammal meats for million of years.

[goodsamaritan]

So two years is not enough time to rely on the alliesthetic mechanism? This is quite surprising after reading your published materials and forum posts. When does the alliesthetic mechanism finally become reliable? Only after 20 years, or any sooner?

I'm just on almost 4 years of RPD plus some 4 months of raw vegan / fruit.  And I'm amazed at changes in myself and my cravings / tastes.

I've gone through binges on red meat, on oysters, on dates, on durian, on horse.  It took me 2 years to like straight from the refrigerator cold red meat.  Lately on my 4th year my appetite for red meat has lessened since 2 months ago.  Maybe it will change again.  Who knows what I'll discover next.

[PaleoPhil]

I actually am not eating much red meat these days, but I still love it just as much.