Vegetable Juice Fermentation

[zeno]

It is generally advised to consume vegetable juices fresh within minutes of juicing the vegetables.

However, I'm interested in fermenting vegetable juice to see the benefits. I suppose this would be something like making beet kvass but from all different vegetables such as carrots, squash and so forth.

I figure there is a window in which the juice is most fresh, which lasts about seven minutes or so before the juice becomes oxidized by oxygen and then begins to ferment and for the juice to become well ripened it will take about the same amount of time it would take to ferment sauerkraut.

Would there be greater benefit to fermented juice over fresh juice?

In particular I'd like to hear KD's opinion on this.

[KD]

Don't know much about it. Just based on my intuition and what I gather from the general juicing lore, you'd want to drink juice as soon as it was made because it is somewhat unstable. I mean, people are right in that it is not the most natural process, even though you can get pretty much the same effect by expelling pulp manually in the mouth - but not exactly the same of course. Certain juicers with the most natural extraction will last longer just like most traditional fruit juice that had been pressed or been squeezed. I assume this made up more of the bulk of most traditionally fermented beverages and that a standard juicer might not be the way to go for this. The ability to pulverize veggies in this way is more recent. Although I guess many alcohols now are highly refined and still ferment...

I have seen 'kraut juices' and stuff available before or recommended in books. I think that is just the juice left over from fermenting?

Not sure man. I doubt it will kill you, but one general point of juice is that all those things are 'alive and active' in that moment in ways they are not available by eating the food, or the food is too fibrous for general use but the nutrients are helpful for supplementing modern people or balancing various conditions. Its true there is alot of bias in the - largely veg - juicing world that doesn't take into account how decomposition can be helpful with many natural foods, but there does seem to be alot of information that many beneficial components of juice (if one ascribes to that in the first place) go sour real quick with age.

Probably want to check with more primal folks - I know one PD trick is adding unheated honey to juice to keep longer - but happy experimenting...

[cherimoya_kid]

I'd say most veggie juices wouldn't have enough sugar to really ferment very much, with the exception of beet and carrot.  Certainly apple and grape juices will ferment (into cider and wine), and I've fermented orange juice plenty of times.

You would definitely want to use a masticating or crushing juicer, like the Greenstar/Greenpower, or the Norwalk juicer.  A regular juicer would cause much more loss of nutrients through oxidation.

[zeno]

I'd say most veggie juices wouldn't have enough sugar to really ferment very much, with the exception of beet and carrot.  Certainly apple and grape juices will ferment (into cider and wine), and I've fermented orange juice plenty of times.

I thought the same thing but how would you explain the fermentation of sauerkraut within the brine of sauerkraut? Or what about beat kvass? This liquid surely doesn't compare to the sugar content of carrot juice but still touted as beneficial and probiotic. As to whether or not the liquid is truly fermenting is debatable, but somehow the fermentation process imparts something into the liquid to make it deemed beneficial.

I suppose just enjoying the vegetable juices fresh would be best.

KD, do you have any recommendations to get the hydration of vegetables without all the fiber in a simple way?

Juicing requires too much technology and is wasteful unless a blender like a Vitamix is used.

I may experiment with wadging, but then again this seems wasteful and time consuming.

I feel the best method is to vigorously agitate the vegetables and ferment them. In this way, the fiber is pre-digested; the vegetable still provides hydration (yet, still less than pure juice); and this can be done manually without any waste.

Most raw vegetables just don't seem appetizing these days, but I do prize them for their structured  hydration they provide.

Any suggestions?

[CitrusHigh]

http://www.wedlinydomowe.com/food-preserving/sauerkraut/fermentation-sauerkraut

[eveheart]

I thought the same thing but how would you explain the fermentation of sauerkraut within the brine of sauerkraut? Or what about beat kvass?

Ferments such as sauerkraut, beet kvass, and kimchi are lacto-fermented products. The word fermentation can refer to many types of breakdown, such as is done by various bacteria or yeasts. Cabbage has the right bacteria on its leaves, so nothing needs to be added, but air needs to be excluded (hence, submerging in juices extracted from the plant by salting, or by submerging in clean water).

There are lots of fermenting traditions and recipes. I am not familiar with fermenting mechanically-juiced veggies (fermenting the juice only). In my kitchen, fermented juice is the liquid that the fermented veggies are submerged in.
 
As far as not using a juicer, I "drank" wheatgrass juice for a while by chewing the grass and spitting out the fiber. I don't drink straight juices because I think chewing is a very important part of digestion.

[KD]

I may experiment with wadging, but then again this seems wasteful and time consuming.

You'd be really surprised. I don't do it enough, but usually celery makes me feel really good and hydrated. Herbs are fun too. Likely I wouldn't be just sitting at a table hanging around doing that, true, but usually involved in some kind of other activity. Many animals and humans have done this (like wild chimpanzees), so hiking around/traveling on the go - would be also be fairly natural. The key is the 'wadge' and that takes some getting used to keeping that amount of fiber going before spitting. Its turns out its extremely not wasteful as I've been left with next to nothing from herbs or half a small bowl of white matter after more than 1/2 a large bunch of celery.  I throw that to the worms.

[RawZi]

    I always made sour cabbage without adding anything, no salt, no water. Grate it well and pummel it to become juicy, then allow it time to ferment. I called that allowing it to bacterially culture (hopefully), as if mold grew instead I called it ferment. That's how I was taught to make it by someone who made things the old way the early part of last century in eastern Europe.  You dont have to grate it by hand like I did. You Feb run it through a juicer, one that keeps the juice and pulp together hopefully, or maybe remix them after juicing? 
   

    I think the cellulose has the right kind of carbohydrate to become sour flavored. Also cellulose absorbs water and fat, so in those last two ways it takes away hydration. I think starchy and sugary vegetables may take your hydration too.

[zeno]

You'd be really surprised.

Alright, I'll give it a go. I'll buy some celery and herbs and try it out when I'm feeling parched.

Thank you, KD!