Multiple Sclerosis Info

[PaleoPhil]

Here is an MS success story and some related links.

An amazing MS success story from a physician who tried a Paleo diet aimed at feeding her mitochondria:
Dr. Terry Wahls - Minding Your Mitochondria
TEDxIowaCity - Dr. Terry Wahls - Minding Your Mitochondria She went from having to use a wheelchair to being able to ride a bicycle.

MS is one of the areas of focus of Dr. Cordain's team. This video presentation by Cordain summarized their findings up to that point:
The Paleo Diet and Multiple Sclerosis (MS)
Part 1/7
October 3 2007
The Paleo Diet and Multiple Sclerosis (MS) Part 1/7

http://jackchallem.com/pages/nomorefatigue/Chapter4.pdf  Jack Challem on Fatigue, including an MS Success Story
http://www.paleodiet.com/ms/  MS and Dietary Intervention
http://www.mult-sclerosis.org/Paleolithicdiet.html  Paleolithic diet and MS Web Site
http://www.ms-diet.org/ Ashton Embry's Best Bet Diet

I figure it's likely that a raw version of Paleo would produce even more amazing results.

[Dorothy]

Kewl.   

Keep in mind everyone that damage to mitochondria is at the root of other diseases so the wonderful top video also pertains to Parkinson's Disease or Alzheimer's Disease.

If you have a loved one that has any mitochondria disease, that's a beautiful success story to send them.

Actually, anyone that has any kind of of neurological issues could benefit.

But one thing Phil - why are you posting videos that will convince more people to eat paleo when it's going to raise the price of your food!?

You are such a softy. 

[PaleoPhil]

Arrrgh. You caught me.  Well, people with serious illnesses are one lot that I feel empathy for.

[ZhenyaTheFree]

My 2nd day on RPDF. Glad to have been referred to it. I introduced myself, looked around briefly and came to this thread as it pertains to me.

I started Paleo Diet a month ago inspired by this very video by Dr. Terry Wahls - Minding Your Mitochondria. And special thank you to you, Phil. I am the person who jumped on the Primal wagon a few years ago just because I did not want to pave my own road.

Thankfully I'm still alive trying it again and documenting my progress.

Any and all tips are much appreciated.

[Carnál]

My 2nd day on RPDF.

Thankfully I'm still alive trying it again and documenting my progress.

Any and all tips are much appreciated.

Hello ZhenyaThefree. Yes thankfully. Was primal or something else a factor, did you think would die in the interim? We have a good journal system here http://www.rawpaleodietforum.com/journals/ It can make it very convenient to draw our thoughts and experiences together.  Do you have a blogspot?

[ZhenyaTheFree]

Thank you for the tip, Carnál. I'll certainly make use of the journal. I do not have a blog, no.
As far as fear of death, and gratitude for being alive, PD didn't kill me, bit coincided with my downfall. By itself it's a long and uninteresting story. It may be worth reflecting on, but not now. Are there other MS'ers on the site?

[PaleoPhil]

I started Paleo Diet a month ago inspired by this very video by Dr. Terry Wahls - Minding Your Mitochondria. And special thank you to you, Phil. I am the person who jumped on the Primal wagon a few years ago just because I did not want to pave my own road.

Arrrgh (revisited)! I know better how to handle brutal attacks than sweet warm thoughts. You're welcome, I guess  . MS and Parkinson's run in my maternal clan somewhat higher than average, so I have a personal connection and bias towards helping folk with those issues. Purely selfish. No touchy-feely warmth here, LOL.

I find Dr. Wahls video and her focus on mitochondria to be very much on target. To her tips I would add (if she didn't already cover them and I merely forgot, which would not be surprising, given my defective memory):
> the importance of oxygen
> ABSENCE of modern processing
> benign, sublime presence of beneficial microbiota (aka flora), who make up most of our being; wildness, rawness, nutrient-richness, and other factors that are found in nature and not found in hypermodern society, and likely other things I've forgotten momentarily, thanks to the infinitely complex nature of nature.

[Neone]

PaleoPhil, thank you so much for posting that video, its just what I have needed. I have a family member who'se been dealing with neurological problems similar to MS for a while and this information means so much more to them when it comes from the mouth of a !! DOCTOR !!.  In fact i just walked past them eating their kentucky fried chicken, but discussing the video and diet and wheat and... just the fact that their discussing it means so much since they have 'tried everything' and kind of given up, so this woman has given them hope.

I also like that she said she tried eating oil and vitamins but it wasnt enough, because my grandmother just said 'But ive eaten greens my whole life', so i now get to say 'yeah, but you know, in that video she said she tried taking vitamins but it wasnt good enough to heal her, she had to make a total lifestyle/diet change to get the results', which is something I've been trying to explain to them.  Who cares about your gigantic mound of vitamins and suppliment pills you take when your diet still sucks.

 thanks again PaleoPhil.

[PaleoPhil]

You're welcome. It makes sense to me that reversing or even just halting the progression of a horrendous illness like MS would require heroic measures. If it was easy, everyone would already be doing it. It's intuitive, but our drug culture has got everyone looking for the quick-and-easy pill-popping cure.

[ZhenyaTheFree]

With your permission, I'll continue on (after all as you said no quick fixes here or anywhere for that matter). It's certainly thrilling that Dr. Wahls was so successful that she stopped taking drugs. Hurray for her!!! ) Truth is I'd love to stop taking Tysabri. It costs a fortune and I haven't seen much benefit. BUT my parents do see its benefits and personally think they pray to it for the lack of another way. It may be clear from my post that I made many uneducated decisions (including stopping Tysabri a few years ago, trying PD, and changing my insurance).

Now my father, bless his soul is helping me implement pro-Wahls diet. No more grains (which was a big part of my diet), but with it no raw pro-PD foods. And that includes eggs, milk, or (god forbid) raw meat ) Just fruits, veggies, nuts, and cooked fish/meat. Now my friend sent me the information on Mercola strongly recommending raw eggs and meat for people with autoimmune diseases.  And here I am a bit torn ) (o:

But this post is not intended as yet another touching story ) But rather to ask for your recommendations of resources that may help me learn about the Paleo vs. PD.

Thank you in advance!

[PaleoPhil]

First, I would search this forum on the term "multiple sclerosis", read Lex Rooker's brilliant and lovably human journal in this forum to get a sense of how to do self-experimentation (not necessarily to emulate his exact approach; also check out Seth Robert's blog for more on how to do self-experimentation), not fall under the spell of gurus, and keep a skeptical attitude, and I would scan the forum for good general info on raw Paleo, paying particular attention to gut flora/microbiota, mitochondria (which Dr. Terry Wahls brilliantly recognized the importance of), oxygenation, healthy animal fats and organs (probably the healthiest of all foods), and also general healthy living beyond diet (sunshing/outdoors/exercise/meditation/etc.).

Stephan Guyenet is a brilliant scientist and uber-mensch who recommends a low-heat approach to Paleo/Ancestral/traditional eating and provides a ton of valuable info for free at http://wholehealthsource.blogspot.com  I think Stephan should be the honorary god of our forum, despite the fact that he's not fully raw.

Denise Minger is another of the ancestral intelligentsia who basically follows a fruit-heavy raw Paleo approach with a small amount of cooking, and she's sexy to boot: http://rawfoodsos.com 
I think Denise should be our honorary goddess, even though she may cook now and then. I prefer quality over dogmatic purity.

To really heal onself, you unfortunately cannot rely on the healthcare industry or the mass media. They are wedded to profit-oriented models that do not produce good health. If you want to heal, YOU have to become the expert. So if you want to heal, get to work doing your own investigating and research and become an expert in multiple sclerosis. Other folks won't do most of the work for you. It's up to YOU. That's the hard truth of today's world. If you delegate the hard work to others, such as your physician or the media or other forum posters, they will usually fuck it up. It's up to YOU to get it right for you.

[cherimoya_kid]

If you delegate the hard work to others, such as your physician or the media or other forum posters, they will usually fuck it up. It's up to YOU to get it right for you.

Well put.  Unless you find someone who has healed their MS through diet or some other modality, you're going to have to do a lot of your own research and personal experimenting.

I would say that high-quality raw fats are the cornerstone of healing any neurological disease.  Probably eating high-quality raw brains would really help too.  It's up to you to experiment, though.

[Adora]

    I met a very nice man with MS. He just didn't look classic MS, so I asked him how he was diagnosed. He was given a flu shot at work and mandated to do multiple long shifts. He developed the flu just after getting the shot and couldn't rest b/c he was forced to work, for the power authority. He started to develop strange neuro symptoms and ended up hospitalized. They misdiagnosed him with Guillain Barre, but months later he was diagnosed with MS, his neurologist said it was related to the flu and may have been related to the flu shot. He has been suffering for years. I showed him the Terri Wahl's video and he and his wife are going to go paleo. I didn't  say I was raw, but they have my email, so I might get another chance.
     I figure you don't get flu shots, but I thought I'd share the info. The flu can be very dangerous, but I have a hard time stomaching the vaccine propaganda medicine is promoting as public good. This is just one of many cases I have seen. The worst was total paralysis and severe mental retardation from a previously healthy 2y/o. These are the few medical admission of vaccine reactions

[PaleoPhil]

The LLVLC Show (Episode 533): ‘Minding Your Mitochondria’ TEDx Viral YouTube Sensation Dr. Terry Wahls
http://livinlavidalowcarb.com/blog/tag/terry-wahls

Every now and then something happens that helps shake people back into reality regarding nutrition that will have a far-reaching impact on the positive health message we are promoting for many years to come. In November 2011, one such event happened in Iowa City, Iowa that will not soon be forgotten for the power diet can have over seemingly insurmountable diseases. It was during the TEDx Iowa City lecture series that an unassuming medical doctor gave an excellent presentation called “Minding Your Mitochondria” that has quickly become a viral YouTube sensation garnering over a quarter million views in less than two months–and the views just keep adding up as this video has been reposted in the social networking web sites and on health blogs alike! Her name is Dr. Terry Wahls and in 2000 she was diagnosed with progressive multiple sclerosis (MS) that forced her into a wheelchair with no real hope for the future she had dreamed of having with a career in the medical profession. But even as her health was declining, Dr. Wahls poured her energy into researching what she could do to beat her MS. She discovered something truly remarkable about the Paleo diet that led her to begin experiencing some amazingly extraordinary results that no drug or conventional MS therapy was able to deliver.

[Aaaaaa]

Thanks for posting that interview!
What do you guys think about her reccomendation of 3 platefuls of veggies/berries per day? 
Do you know what her stance is on raw foods?

[Dorothy]

Thanks for posting that interview!
What do you guys think about her reccomendation of 3 platefuls of veggies/berries per day? 
Do you know what her stance is on raw foods?

What I thought when I watched it was "That's a LOT of food when raw - in general - without juicing it or making it into smoothies." When you're cooking it down it gets to be a lot less though. Steaming greens makes them really shrink up.  It's much harder to eat that much raw whole veggies than when it's prepared. I think she was talking about eating them prepared. You have to eat so much more food when it's cooked to get what you need - if you ever really can fully get what you need that way - in my experience.

[sabertooth]

I was diagnosed with chronic Epstein Barr. For years I suffered from chronic fatigue and unknown immune issues.

I suffered from numerous viral infection. I had shingles, hand foot and mouth disease,swine flu and at least three episodes of viral meningitis . My constant flare ups caused an itchy rash to form over my thymus area,as well as organ and joint pain. I suffered from dementia and concentration issues.

I found relief on a high fat raw paleo diet. I truly believe that a Raw ketogenic diet does in fact increase your mitochondrial function significantly, and with the increase in cellular energy , along with the optimum levels of nutrients the body is able to rejuvenate at a cellular level.

Three platefuls of veggies and berries seems unnecessary. Perhaps for people who normally eat three plates of processed non paleo foods it is an improvement, but is not optimal for maximum healing. If you want to maximize your mitochondria then vegetables are not the way to go.

Raw animal meat and fat are far more important for increasing mitochondrial levels and function. Vegetables always seemed to interfere with the digestion and absorption of meats, and to much fruit will inhibit  ketogenesis.

To really take on a condition like MS, I highly recommend a low carb high fat approach, that includes  fatty meats, organs, and bone marrow of land animals along with egg yolks as a primary source of food.

SileIndigo
I would also recommend that if you are using coconut oil and not getting the results you want , to try out some coconut butter, its got coconut flesh, and cream blended in with the oil. It so much better than the plain oil.

[Aaaaaa]

But I thought that there was no actually "raw" coconut butter available...I think they're all heated to like 118*?  I guess unless you make it yourself...but I can't get good coconuts around here either. :-(  it sucks!!!

I just wish I could figure out my carbohydrate situation...as in, what to eat!  I do fine with my raw meat and fat, but my bowel pattern was totally normal only when I was eating quite a bit of sweet fruit (like maybe ~3-4 pieces a day...pineapple, mango, apple, orange, grapefruit), which the couple of people who really seem to know what they're talking about re: healing degenerative disease (Dr. Wahls and Dr. Ron) don't seem to think is good...they seem to advocate lots of veggies instead, for a more ketogenic diet.  AGH!  This wouldn't be an issue if veggies didn't make my intestines gassy (and therefore me constipated)...I'm thinking of resorting to trying gently steaming them and see if that helps.

[TylerDurden]

104F, not 118F, is the correct point above which foods are not raw.

[Dorothy]

104F, not 118F, is the correct point above which foods are not raw.

Please explain this in more depth Tyler. Are you talking about all kinds of foods? Why 104?

[Dorothy]

Sile - I find the coconuts I get away from the tropics are just not right. I learned that they all are irradiated when shipped from other countries. If you didn't have the raw animal fats I can see why it might be necessary to eat them anyway and coconut products are yummy - but I find that any coconut I can get in my parts is way inferior to the suet and marrow I can get. I think what you can get that is good is such a big part of the decision on what to eat. I like variety and to prepare different foods - for that reason I throw in some coconut - not because it's better for me than other foods though. Also, people are different. Coconuts in Barbados - wowser. Coconuts in Texas - just if I really craving that coconut thang - but it will never be the same as the non-shipped ones.

[Aaaaaa]

Yeah, I agree Dorothy.  Its too bad, because I really like coconut cream!  But even the ones that aren't obviously rotton still taste slightly "off".
I think the 104* point is when enzymes start to be destroyed...I was just saying that I  think I remember someone saying that the Artisana coconut butter is heated up to 118*, which unfortunately makes it definitely not raw anymore.
I'm going to ask Dr. Ron tomorrow about my whole fruit/veggie conundrum...I hope he has some good insight!  I'll keep you guys updated :-)

[PaleoPhil]

Thanks for posting that interview!
What do you guys think about her reccomendation of 3 platefuls of veggies/berries per day? 
Do you know what her stance is on raw foods?

You're welcome; I don't find I do as well on that much veggies/berries, but your mileage may vary; I don't know her view on raw foods.

I was just saying that I  think I remember someone saying that the Artisana coconut butter is heated up to 118*, which unfortunately makes it definitely not raw anymore.

Is that why it's so dry?

[Dorothy]

I just wish I could figure out my carbohydrate situation...as in, what to eat!  I do fine with my raw meat and fat, but my bowel pattern was totally normal only when I was eating quite a bit of sweet fruit (like maybe ~3-4 pieces a day...pineapple, mango, apple, orange, grapefruit), which the couple of people who really seem to know what they're talking about re: healing degenerative disease (Dr. Wahls and Dr. Ron) don't seem to think is good...they seem to advocate lots of veggies instead, for a more ketogenic diet.  AGH!  This wouldn't be an issue if veggies didn't make my intestines gassy (and therefore me constipated)...I'm thinking of resorting to trying gently steaming them and see if that helps.

Sile - it is my own personal experience that no doctor or expert ever can know more about my body and what is good for me than I know. It seems to me that you are saying that your body likes eating raw meat, fat and some fruits ... but the experts that you trust say that you "should" be eating vegetables and you trust them so much that you are going to try cooking your vegetables in order to follow their general instructions. I guess it makes sense to try cooking vegetables....... but if I may be so bold as to say so..... I somehow doubt that eating cooked vegetables is better than eating a few pieces of organic raw fruits a day.... at least it wouldn't be better for me! So, if for your body tells you that you need to eat that fruit for proper bowel movements and you feel good eating it and enjoy it - I would say then it is better than what the experts tell you to eat. I will bet you a thousand dollars on the spot that your body knows better than they do for your body.

[Aaaaaa]

Yeah, I definietly see where you're coming from, Dorothy!  I'm mainly doing this consultation for a chance to run my ideas by someone who is also educated on a raw paleo diet; of all the people in my life right now, I BY FAR know the most about diet/nutrition/natural healing etc.  Which is great, because I get to help others, but when *I* have a question, I don't really have anyone to turn to.  Altho, this forum is extremely helpful!! :-)

I think I've pretty much come to the conclusion that I just can't digest raw vegetables (which means I'm probably not getting much nutrition from them).  I guess I kind of forgot how crappy my digestion was when I was eating cooked food!  I used to have to take up to 3 HCL capsules, or bitters or enzymes with everything I ate, or I would get reflux (like a "knot" feeling in my throat, burping, gas etc).  I'm also kind of thinking that I don't do well with cooked veggies either--I guess I'll have to try them while I'm eating raw meat to be sure, but when I was eating pretty much 100% cooked meat/veg only (GAPS diet) I felt TERRIBLE and was having all kinds of trouble digesting anything and with my poops.  But I'm not sure if it was the meat or the veggies.  And AV DOES say that MS is caused by being "allergic" to cooked veggies...which makes no scientific sense how he explains it, but still....there might be some truth to it!
As of right now, I think I'm going to structure my diet as follows (and ask Dr. Ron what he thinks)~
1.  grassfed raw meat ((2/3 fresh, 1/3 frozen) beef, bison, occasional lamb, occasional (frozen) tuna, occasional oysters, occasional chicken)
2.  grassfed raw fat (marrow, backfat, suet) and sm. amount of raw coconut oil and olive oil
3.  fermented organic veggies (carrots, sauerkraut, cabbage and radish kimchi.  Maybe kale?  I've heard its a sort of "wild" plant, and is very nutritious...I wonder if its ever been fermented traditonally?)
4.  fermented organic fruit (lemons, fruit kimchi)--just though of this!  I've been wanting to try fermented fruit for awhile!
5.  fresh organic fruit (grapefruit, oranges, apples, berries, pineapple, coconut if i can find good ones, pears, and whatever I'm able to forage in the summer)
6.  frozen Stahlbush Farm berries for now (they taste BY FAR the best of any frozen berries I've tried, and I'm pretty sure are high-BRIX, and are flash frozen, which should help retain nutrients.
7.  fresh (this summer) and then frozen (next fall/winter) locally-picked-in-season berries
8.  fresh herbs with my meats as condiments
9.  fermented CLO and probiotics (for vit D, and to help build up my digestion, respectivly.)
10.  and I'm thinking of doing a little bone broth, maybe a small cup a day.  Its suposed to be very healing for the digestive tract...so this probably isn't something I'd do forever, but I know my gut needs to heal a LOT!  And low, slow cooking in water is the "best" way of cooking, if there is one! ;-)

What'dya think guys?  :-)  Does that sound pretty well-rounded?
I do believe in listening to my body...sometimes I just think I have trouble understanding what it wants!!