leeches

[svrn]

What does everyone think about leech therapy? I'm thinking about trying it out on what I believe to be my trauma induced arthritis.

[RawZi]

    I would try it in your position if it were nearby. I have not though, so ..

[Aaaaaa]

I don't know much about it, but when I used to work in the hospital, we once had a patient that was using leech therapy to heal a partially severed ear back on.  I had to monitor the leeches and make sure they stayed on his ear, and herd them back when they started to wander away LOL!  It was fun
And from what I remember, it worked very well.  I believe they are supposed to increase circulation to an area?

[svrn]

I did the leeches a while ago and they improved my leg a lot. It bled for a while and left bruises around the bit for a long time but i feel like those two things have been part of the healing.  Also a word of warning to those who would attempt to did this themselves like i did. They are very wild guys and are very hard to keep in one place and are very good at escaping. I had a few layers of cheesecloth over my jar when I first placed them there and within an hour one got out out by poking through the layers of cheese cloth. Now i have a rubber banded layer of bounty over it as well as a sock and its been working great. I have 3 left and may use them soon.

[raw-al]

I don't know much about it, but when I used to work in the hospital, we once had a patient that was using leech therapy to heal a partially severed ear back on.  I had to monitor the leeches and make sure they stayed on his ear, and herd them back when they started to wander away LOL!  It was fun
And from what I remember, it worked very well.  I believe they are supposed to increase circulation to an area?

Interesting a leechherder.. : )

What does everyone think about leech therapy? I'm thinking about trying it out on what I believe to be my trauma induced arthritis.

Where did you learn about it?

[Dorothy]

Awe and shock. Never thought I'd ever hear someone say they used leeches in the 21st century. Please explain more why this therapy would work? What do you thing the leeches did for you?

[svrn]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/1543325.stm

DVT'S & ARTHRITIS- My Leech Therapy 'how to' clip 1 of 2

theres a couple of good items from my leech research. Basically the saliva has a blood thinner and a pain killer. It also draws blood to the specific area where its which helps facilitate healing as well. I think part of the healing may work on the same principle as the bamboo therapy I posted before in which bruising after being hit by a bamboo stick many times or after a leech sucks your blood helps healing by bringing lots of blood to the problem area.

I initially researched it after hearing about it being a very common remedy for inflammation in eastern europe where i am originally from.

[Dorothy]

Wow.    Thanks for posting the video - that was fascinating.

[svrn]

Sure. I should also point out that i ahd a lot more bleeding than the guy in the video. I suggest planning to stay home a day because the bleeding really is profuse.

[Dorothy]

Sure. I should also point out that i ahd a lot more bleeding than the guy in the video. I suggest planning to stay home a day because the bleeding really is profuse.

That might partly be because of your diet Troll. Most Americans have pretty thick blood these days would think. Those extra blood thinning enzymes probably made your blood flow fast.

I would like to just add to this discussion (just in case someone has the same problem but won't do leeches) that you can also supplement with nattokinase enzyme (that the pancreas is supposed to make enough of to keep the blood flowing just right and clotting to the correct amount). There is a product called 10zymes that has nattokinase in it with other pancreatic enzymes that break down fibrin build up in the body. It's pretty good stuff as far as supplements go if you happen to need it to get back to a place where healthy diet is enough. 

Cancer patients need to thin the blood and break down fibrin. The cancer cells puts a thick fibrin sheath around itself. I wonder if leeches could be useful for cancer too? I wonder if anyone has experimented with putting leeches directly onto tumors?

Wild ideas running through my head. This forum blows my mind.

[raw-al]

Here is part 2 of that vid. Fascinating!

DVT'S & ARTHRITIS- My Leech Therapy 'how to' clip 2 of 2

[Dorothy]

Oopsy - he said you will bleed longer if you are on coumadin. Putting another blood thinner in your body through the bites of the leeches when on coumadin could be REALLY DANGEROUS! Coumadin is a powerful nasty drug and you can't even eat different foods that might thin your blood. People die from internal bleeding from coumadin all the time.

I would never do such a therapy when on coumadin or a similar blood thinner. Thought I'd just add that.

Makes ya wonder though if leech therapy couldn't be used INSTEAD of coumadin?! I betcha it would be safer.

But still - yes - truly fascinating.

Now I have to find out if there would ever be a real reason to bleed people like they did in the old days. 

[cherimoya_kid]

Now I have to find out if there would ever be a real reason to bleed people like they did in the old days. 

Detox.  I'm sure it wouldn't have been useful for the poor of the day, they were already undernourished.  A rich man with access to lots of rich food might get some benefit, maybe, though.

[raw-al]

I know that nowadays people are used to abusing the ways of old medical practices, as the latest version of medicine (allopathy) seems to be practiced at the art of calling everyone else a quack. In days of yore some ignorent western doctors used this as a cure all for illnesses, as it was believed that pathogens were located in the blood. There have been cases where it was used to murder patients. Obviously it is not a cure all.

However the act of bleeding a patient can be useful in certain medical issues.

Unfortunately the process was subjected to excesses in days of yore by the doctors (allopaths interestingly were also doing it) who had no clue what they were doing. It was stolen from eastern traditions who used it for specific situations.

I don't blame you for saying this as this is the stuff that ignorant allopaths trot out.

The use of leeches comes from these traditions also.

Also the use of urine (derivatives) in certain surgical blood clotting medicinals nowadays is rooted in these traditions.

You get the impression that surgery is a modern medical miracle, but in reality I have books dating back 1000 years that have the same surgical devices that are common today except obviously not electrical ones. They were employed and documented but not new even back then.

Lots of stuff nowadays comes from ancient practices. New discoveries are frequently rehashes.

[Dorothy]

I know that nowadays people are used to abusing the ways of old medical practices, as the latest version of medicine (allopathy) seems to be practiced at the art of calling everyone else a quack. In days of yore some ignorent western doctors used this as a cure all for illnesses, as it was believed that pathogens were located in the blood. There have been cases where it was used to murder patients. Obviously it is not a cure all.

However the act of bleeding a patient can be useful in certain medical issues.

Unfortunately the process was subjected to excesses in days of yore by the doctors (allopaths interestingly were also doing it) who had no clue what they were doing. It was stolen from eastern traditions who used it for specific situations.

I don't blame you for saying this as this is the stuff that ignorant allopaths trot out.

The use of leeches comes from these traditions also.

Also the use of urine (derivatives) in certain surgical blood clotting medicinals nowadays is rooted in these traditions.

You get the impression that surgery is a modern medical miracle, but in reality I have books dating back 1000 years that have the same surgical devices that are common today except obviously not electrical ones. They were employed and documented but not new even back then.

Lots of stuff nowadays comes from ancient practices. New discoveries are frequently rehashes.

Truly FASCINATING! I totally get where you're coming from. Traditional practices are skewed. One thing is taken from an herb and used and then the herb is demonized even though the entire herb doesn't have the negative side affects. So, what diseases/conditions were leeches and bleeding traditionally used for?

[raw-al]

I am not an expert on the topic by any stretch, but leeches were used basically for what the people here are using them from what I can gather. The details of Bloodletting I am not sure about, but a wild completely unsubstantiated guess would be high blood pressure, certain clotting situations, certain buildup of fluids, and certain infectious diseases. The bleeding and leeches were probably one and the same.

The best person to ask would be an honest to goodness Vaidya. (Ayurvedic doctor) I would have to spend awhile researching my books to find the answer. If I do I will write about it.

In North America, these practices are taboo because leeches can't be patented, so there is no money in certifying them, if you get my meaning. Now if someone could isolate the active ingredients in a leeches bite (saliva) there's money in them thar hills.

There is a blood clotting agent derived from good ole urine, that is used in modern surgery as a blood clotting agent.

[svrn]

its not the same as bloodletting. a big part of what they do comes from the enzymes in the saliva

[Dorothy]

"There is a blood clotting agent derived from good ole urine, that is used in modern surgery as a blood clotting agent."

Makes me wonder if they used to use urine after the leeches to stop the bleeding and sterilize the wounds? It would make sense.

[raw-al]

Urine therapy is another large subject which is in the Vedic literature also but not sure where exactly. It is sometimes called Sivambu or Siva's urine (very rough translation)

However back to the raktamokshana (rakta is blood) or bloodletting or venesection

Here is the scans from a book on PK. At the end page there is a reference to ashtanga Hridya and Charaka and Sushruta. Those are authors. Caraka was written around Christ's time and I believe Sushruta was a surgeon who wrote about 3rd or 4th century CE
https://docs.google.com/open?id=0B_HH-5EYWaxzNzMyZWVjOTItMTgyNC00ZDQ2LWI2ZTMtOWI1OWRlNGM5NmRk

Note: there are a few typos in the book and the English is the English practised in India, so funnily enough if you make a fake Indian accent when reading it, you will find it more understandable.

[Dorothy]

Thanks Al - I'll have to read that later when I can hook into a bigger screen - but looks interesting.

Does Ayurveda use urine therapy other than drinking - like what I was thinking about using it as an external sanitizer? I've read that if you are ever out hiking and get a small injury that peeing on it is the next best thing to antibiotic creams. That is another subject - but is the same subject as the old ways that actually worked being scoffed at today.

[raw-al]

"There is a blood clotting agent derived from good ole urine, that is used in modern surgery as a blood clotting agent."

Makes me wonder if they used to use urine after the leeches to stop the bleeding and sterilize the wounds? It would make sense.

There are a couple of books that I know of on the subject and there was a website "urofun" (what kind of person would name it that is beyond me... LOL)

Wiki which for once isn't "dumb allopathic rhetoric"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urine_therapy

A book http://www.minimum.com/b.asp?a=water-life-armstrong

http://www.betterworldbooks.com/armstrong-water-of-life-H0.aspx?SearchTerm=armstrong+water+of+life

The last I heard there was a World Congress on the subject I believe in Holland or in that area of Europe. Maybe 10 years ago.

It is particularly good for chronic conditions.

Externally -  Don't use fresh as it will cause problems (not sure what problems). Must be fermented for a few days at least. Although if you have a fresh wound and no choice, I'd go for it.

Internally - Only use fresh. do not use the first 1/4 of the stream as it is too pungent. Do not use the last 1/4 of the stream as it is too weak. Best is first thing in the morning.

The first time is incredibly difficult psychologically.

Avoid doing it regularly especially guys as testosterone is run through again. It will make you jumpy and short fused  Unless of course you have serious issues.

One theory is that it bypasses the immune system by reusing the chemicals that the immune system produced to fight whatever issues you have. Some chemicals that the body produces to fight issues are very complex and difficult to produce, try as the pharmaceutical companies may.

[Dorothy]

Difficult psychologically is right. 
I think I'd do leeches before internal urine. But what you wrote Al:

"One theory is that it bypasses the immune system by reusing the chemicals that the immune system produced to fight whatever issues you have. Some chemicals that the body produces to fight issues are very complex and difficult to produce, try as the pharmaceutical companies may.

was very interesting. If you have a serious problem and your body is making things to fight that escape through the urine still unused I can see how that could be useful - still though - can't imagine myself doing that unless I was in dire circumstances. That might be mostly from cultural programming though - sorta like not eating bugs.

[raw-al]

Difficult psychologically is right. 
I think I'd do leeches before internal urine. But what you wrote Al:

"One theory is that it bypasses the immune system by reusing the chemicals that the immune system produced to fight whatever issues you have. Some chemicals that the body produces to fight issues are very complex and difficult to produce, try as the pharmaceutical companies may.

was very interesting. If you have a serious problem and your body is making things to fight that escape through the urine still unused I can see how that could be useful - still though - can't imagine myself doing that unless I was in dire circumstances. That might be mostly from cultural programming though - sorta like not eating bugs.

I hear ya!

I am a very curious person and fear does not usually hold me back, but I understand completely.

I saw one video on the net (long before Youtube) where a group of urine enthusiasts were doing a demo for a group of assembled allopathic doctors. You can just imagine sitting in the audience for that one.

OK folks down the hatch for the batch of apple juice LOL. Not sure if they got any converts. It's not like people would be lining up to tell the tale.

I've seen pictures in third world countries where people had clinics where you could learn about it.

In Ayurveda there is a whole diagnostic program using urine. It is detailed in Doctor Vasant Lad's first and most popular book "Ayurveda The Science of Self Healing"  http://www.amazon.com/Ayurveda-Science-Healing-Practical-Guide/dp/0914955004/ref=pd_sim_sbs_b_1

[Dorothy]

"I saw one video on the net (long before Youtube) where a group of urine enthusiasts were doing a demo for a group of assembled allopathic doctors."

LOL  - I can just imagine the faces and the commentary. It's probably the only thing that would get more of a reaction than AV poking a hole in a raw egg and sucking it out for the doctors on that doctor show on tv. The doctors must have given those "imbibers" a real chiding. On those shows the doctors never listen to a word the person is saying about the benefits - just look into the camera and tell everyone how horribly dangerous it is and not to do it........ but ...... then there is this guy standing there listing off the things that it has cured. I wonder what most audience members take away from it. I wonder how many of the ones that are really sick and can't get help from the allopaths have their interest piqued.

[raw-al]

There is always a group of people that don't believe 'authorities'. Most of them are here on this forum. LOL

Then there are the groups who listen and believe the authorities absolutely.

I like to think that I am open minded and listen to theory and try to understand it before I judge but I suppose some will say it's not so.

Everyone is at a different stage in their understanding of how the world works. I like to think I am at a relatively high level of thought but I thought that when I was a vege for 23 years. I was never sick, at the time. hoonu.

Now I realize that my teeth were not doing very well at all and I had gas regularly and other very minor issues like bloating.