Dairy vs. fruit

[Aaaaaa]

I seem to kind of go between raw fermented dairy or raw fresh fruit as the "accompaniment" to my other animal foods (meat/eggs/fat).  Not to be eaten together, but I mean as kind of my other major source of calories.
I *thought* the dairy was causing me some MS symptoms, so I stopped it, but the symptoms still seem to(tingling in my feet when I bent my neck forward) kind of just come and go regardless of anything. 
I am eating more fruit now, and no dairy.  But because of my location, getting actually ripe, fresh, local, organically grown fruit is preeety much impossible.  And I just can't help but feel that imported, force-ripened or not really ripe, mostly non-organically grown (or factory farm organic), or frozen fruit/berries isn't really something I should be including in any significant amount in my diet.
I know Tyler isn't a big dairy fan, but I was wondering what everyone else thinks.  Should I give it another try?  Other than the MS symptoms that it might not even be causing, it makes me feel fine--no other symptoms of intolerance.  I usually eat it as kefir or butter.

[RawZi]

I *thought* the dairy was causing me some MS symptoms, so I stopped it, but the symptoms still seem to(tingling in my feet when I bent my neck forward) kind of just come and go regardless of anything.

    Were you medically diagnosed as having Multiple Sclerosis?  Regardless, it doesn't even matter.  Son, I talk about a lot here, has many of the same symptoms as people we meet who were medically dx'ed as MS.  He was having many tests done, but I suppose because of his age or something they were just trying to prove he had nothing.  However his myelinated nerves through costly nerve studies showed 99% loss.  A couple more years passed and he very obviously lost feeling in extremities and lost motor control.  He wound up breaking bones because of this, and still they don't like zeroing in.  He had to do something different.  He still says he has vegan ethics, and has always ate fruit, but adding kefir and butter helped alleviate the MS symptoms.  Eventually the kefir started making gastrointestinal problems worse, so he has given that up.  If he were without butter at this point he would be lost. 

    What other fats do you eat?  I could imagine his health possibly being okay without fruit.  Without butter? No.  Of course we are each different though. Are you eating herring? Tuna? Other white meats?  What about high meats or fermented egg?  The microorganisms are completely different than fermented plant and dairy products. Balut should be good too and if you can tolerate: lots of sunshine.

[Aaaaaa]

I was medically Dx'd with MS via spinal tap and MRI. 
The fats I normally eat are in coconut cream and oil, in my red meat, a little suet, bone marrow (which I'm out of right now but getting more soon), and a few nuts (bought in-shell).
I do eat tuna about once every week to two weeks.  Haven't found a source for good herring yet.  I have chicken about as often, or a little less.  I can only find frozen pastured chicken.
I eat fermented veggies as condiments for probiotics.  I made a little high beef tongue, and ate a little, but didn't notice much of a benefit and it was so yucky smelling I gave it to my dog.  I think I'll try again with the fresh bison roasts I'm getting and see if it turns out better.  I haven't tried eggs--how do you make high eggs?
What is Balut?
I have been using indoor tanning beds for my sunshine, as we don't get much of that here in the winter, and its WAY to cold to expose enough skin!  I have been gonig about once a week for ~10 min and it really feels like it makes a difference!
I think maybe I'll try keeping the fruit (I usually eat about 1-1.5 piece portion in the morning and then again mid afternoon as a snack) and making cultured butter.
Thanks for the reply, and I hope your son has lots of good healing! :-)

[RawZi]

    from wikipedia

In the Philippines, the ideal balut is 17 days old, at which point it is said to be balut ...

it's a fertilized egg.

    What kind of tanning bed is helping?

    Tongue has a lot of fat in it.  I tried making highmeat of it once, and it got big maggots.  That never happened with another meat that I tried.

    Might ordering the herring through your fish counter help?

    Which fruits are you eating? Are you eating cucumber?

    I think the best way to make the eggs may be to poke a hole and let it sit at normal room temperature, not hot, for a month or two. Ask someone who eats fermented eggs regularly.

    Thank you.  I hope you are well soon too.

[TylerDurden]

Dairy is a serious danger for MS sufferers, just read online re this connection. Best to avoid it like the plague, even when raw. As regards fruit, prefrozen slightly low quality food is always better than nonfrozen, even lower quality foods.

[Aaaaaa]

I think that all the studies regarding MS and dairy have been done with pasteurized, commercial dairy though, right?  You don't think that would make much of a difference in the findings?

[TylerDurden]

I think that all the studies regarding MS and dairy have been done with pasteurized, commercial dairy though, right?  You don't think that would make much of a difference in the findings?

Not really. After all, it is strongly disputed as to whether cooked meats cause MS, whereas there is plenty of evidence to show that pasteurised dairy is linked to MS. Therefore, the likelihood is that raw dairy will also cause problems re MS, albeit probably at a lower level than pasteurised dairy.

[RawZi]

    I would disagree with that.  Seems after much experience and observation that whatever negative a heated food has, it has the inverse effect not having been temperature treated.  Take cooked meat. It makes me deathly ill, so much so that I went vegan completely for decades.  Raw meat on the other hand feels like I could live on it alone.  It's like that with a number of different types of foods including fruits and vegetables for a number of people.  A person of vata (old age immaciation etc) constitution in ayurveda often does very poorly on green salad, yet just as often well for a time on cooked vegetables, better than many other (cooked) foods.  Take dairy, unpasteurized it can give a person calcium.  Pasteurized some people's calcium may still be okay, but the milk cannot scientifically provide any usable calcium.  I've seen people who were medically proven to be allergic to wheat (cooked wheat I'm sure) to heal from medically diagnosed ulcers and get no wheat reaction when taking rejuvelac (a raw wheat sprout drink).

[van]

My two cents on dairy.  First is it raw, then is it grass fed, then, is it from green grass fed cows?     Each one of those steps is significant.  Grain fed milk will always give me congestion, even milk from cows eating brown grass will eventually give me mucous.  When starting to eat dairy, the intestines have to have enough of the proper bacteria to handle the lactose, then their bi-product which is lactase is produced and then used to digest more lactose.  One can build the number of lactase creating bacteria by slowly including more and more milk and allowing the bacteria to multiply, thus creating more lactase.  Trying to ingest substantial, even small amounts of dairy when you've haven't been using it for years will lead to problems.  Most people don't know of this relation and always blame it on the milk.  But again, if the milk isn't from grain free, green grass fed cows,  there most likely be problems with sensitive ones.  And then I didn't even get into cow vs. goat milk.  Another huge difference for many.   Most of our genetics (if that even applies) or ancestors used goat milk vs. cow milk.  More families in the past had a family goat(s) than did cows.  Cow milk proliferation came about when dairies were formed.   If you're interested in using dairy,  I always say go to the dairy and look at the animal that you'll be ingesting the milk from.  Smell her breath.  Look to see how much mucous is running out of her nose from the foods she is eating.  If not clean and sweet, than you'll take on her condition over time with large amounts of her substance.    These kind of thoughts usually come from those that have raised green grass fed grain free animals.  It's the same thing when you smell my dogs' breath, look at their teeth, feel their coats.  Right diets create healthy animals.  Most farmers cut corners.

[Aaaaaa]

Thank you all! :-)
RawZi--I am using what is called a "medium pressure" tanning bed.  From what I've read, they have a UVA:UVB ratio more similar to the sun than the "high pressure" beds which are designed to just give you a tan color really fast. 
Thanks for clarifying what "balut" is.  I'll have to ask my farmer if her eggs are fertalized.  I *think* they are, but I'm not sure.
As for fruit, I've been eating grapefruit, pineapple, mango, fig, apple, orange, banana, and frozen berries.  And I have been eating cucumber as well, with coconut cream and raw honey.  Usually about 1 and a half fruits in the morning, and about the same amount again mid afternoon.
I think that the store I get my fish from does have herring, but its not wild-caught. :-(.  So far I've been eating tuna, salmon, oysters and scallops, because that is all they have that is wild-caught.  Is there something espeically beneficial in herring?
Van--I do know that the cows I was getting my raw dairy from are healthy, but I'm guessing right now they are eating either dried or brown grass because its winter here.  I WISH I could find some raw goat milk somewhere!  Unfortunetly its illegal to sell here, so the one farmer I get my eggs from is hesitant to give me any even though she has several milk goats.  I have to think of some way to convince her!  I wonder how I could get around the illegal aspect, but still pay her for it...?  I guess I understand why someone woudl be paranoid about selling something illegal like that, but I think the cow milk farm just has you sign up as a "member" and then you can buy anything from their farm including raw milk.  I have heard that goat and sheep dairy is much better tolerated.  I'd make kefir out of it as well, so that would further enhance its digestablilty I think.

[RawZi]

I think that the store I get my fish from does have herring, but its not wild-caught. :-(.  So far I've been eating tuna, salmon, oysters and scallops, because that is all they have that is wild-caught.  Is there something espeically beneficial in herring?

    http://www.health.ny.gov/diseases/conditions/osteoporosis/vitd.htm

    Herring is a great source of vitamin D.

    http://www.webmd.com/multiple-sclerosis/news/20090428/high-doses-vitamin-d-cut-ms-relapses

    Vitamin D should help you with the multiple sclerosis.

[Aaaaaa]

Oh interesting!  Yes, I am trying to get vitamin D from as many sources as possible, so I will definitely look for some herring.

[CitrusHigh]

So are mushrooms. I lady on our traditional foods listserv on yahoo, doesn't eat very much animal fat or cod liver oil but consistently tests at lifeguard levels in the doc's office. Apparently the mushrooms in her diet are the largest source of vitamin D. But for the mushrooms to have vitamin D levels in large amounts they need to be exposed to UV light just like us, though not sure if it's the same spectrum or not. Anyway, can be a healthy, raw source of vitamin D, especially during the winter months.

[Aaaaaa]

Mushrooms!  Well, I never woulda guessed!  I do love them...I guess it can't hurt to add a few more into my diet!  I wonder what drying them does to the vitamin D?  --I can get all sorts of exotic kinds that are dried at my local grocery store, but only the regular white buttons, portabellas and sometimes shitakes fresh.

[RawZi]

    Dry them in direct sunlight or using the uv bulbs.  Make a Rooker dehydrator with the uv bulbs.

    What kind of mushrooms does the lady eat?  Does she have MS?  I think some people need animal sources, as they cannot convert some things.

    People with kidney problems can have problems tolerating uvlight I read; because of the vitamin d/hormone.

[CitrusHigh]

She eats all different varieties from what I read. Yeah they may not be for everybody, but unless she is mistaken in her attribution of elevated serum vitamin d levels to the mushrooms, they seem to be effective for some people at least.

[RawZi]

.. Yeah they may not be for everybody, but unless she is mistaken in her attribution of elevated serum vitamin d levels to the mushrooms, they seem to be effective for some people at least.

    I read it before about shiitakes.  Does she have any D deficiency symptoms? I think a person can be symptomatic while showing high blood level. I think cremini mushrooms may be buttons grown in light, and portabellos just creminis that're allowed to grow more.

     

[Haai]

I ate about 150g of organic raw shiitake a while back and ended up bed ridden with a purple rash over my entire body for two weeks. Havn't touched any mushroom since.

[balancing-act]

Damn the illegality of raw milk cheese! I've been eating raw goat's cheese recently and loving it.

No reason fruit and cheese should be mutually exclusive; you could eat a little of each.

[Aaaaaa]

Thats kind of what I'm thinking...I can get raw goats milk cheese, but I prefer kefir.  Espeically after reading the fructose thread, about how its better to eat fruit after exercising, which makes sense.  Right now, I don't really do much actual exercise...mainly walking a LOT at work, and out side with my dog, but other than than, I'm just basically a generally active person.  It makes sense that in the wild, to get fruit, you'd be picking it from bushes or climbing trees etc to get it.

[balancing-act]

Walking is great exercise. In the winter I don't do shit physically, and still I'm hungry almost constantly, because that cold gets into your bones.

[Aaaaaa]

Both very true! ;-)  I do like walking as exercise, but the coldness outside can make it hard to motivate myself to bundle up and get out there...