Aajonus Vonderplanitz interview on One Radio Network with host Patrick Timpone?

[PaleoPhil]

*** WARNING: potentially revolting discussion below ***

Tyler wrote:

Not true. Coprophagia has been observed in carnivores, such as dogs,and is present in wolves etc.

Yes, I meant that REGULAR coprophagia had not been witnessed among wild carnivores, but in looking back I see that I didn't specify "regular." Sorry for the confusion. Domestic dog coprophagia is not particularly relevant to wild animal behavior, given the deficient non-wild diet they are fed, so I'll assume you mean wild dogs. My understanding of wild dog and wolf coprophagia is that it is occasional and only practiced when food is scarce or deficient or for other temporary reasons, such as medicinal ones perhaps, whereas regular coprophagia only occurs among heavy plant eaters which are deficient in certain nutrients like B12. In other words, I was agreeing with you where you stated that "many [coprophagic animals] are herbivores [not carnivores] which need special bacteria to predigest certain plant-matter or have inefficient digestive systems like rabbits who need to eat their faeces one more time in order to properly digest their food." Did I misunderstand you? My knowledge of the subject is rather limited--are you aware of any observational evidence of regular coprophagia among well-fed carnivores?

Eating some kind of shit (horse or camel)as a cure has been successfully practiced in North Africa, copied from the natives by the ww2 Afrika Korps to cure dysentery, who being German made it into a pill or capsule. It worked. still does.
This could be what we are now cutely calling "friendly bacteria", and good shit is a better source than yogurt, and the price is right.

Well this topic is sure to scare some people away, but I generally don't shy from controversy, so what the heck. Interesting story. I hadn't heard that one, but I did hear that the Mongol armies would drink horse dung tea (along with horse blood) when meat was scarce. Not because they thought it was a healthy staple food or necessary regular detoxicant, but to avoid starvation.

Your and Tyler's comments also reminded me that Bear Grisham drank fluid squeezed from fresh elephant dung as a cure for dysentary, which is apparently also practiced in parts of Africa. In light of that I suppose that advocacy of coprophagia by Aajonus might not seem so outlandish for treating lethal diseases like cancer, but I hope to heck that Tyler is right and high meat is sufficient treatment, because I hate to think of anyone having to use a copraphagia cure. On the other hand, the more I think about it these points and my own remembrances from nature/survival shows past, the less strange Aajonus' views on this topic seem, but I'd rather not think about it much.

After this topic will we have any members left?    

It sounds like AV was suckered by those who use words better than he.

Perhaps he saw it as "any publicity is good publicity." However, I think he'll have to practice his sound bites and try not to seem quite so eccentric if he's going to convince more people via TV.

[goodsamaritan]

After this topic will we have any members left?

This is raw paleo.
We are ALL eccentric.

[PaleoPhil]

LOL, good point GS! I've been called worse than eccentric because of RPD myself already. I get the vague sense from his TV appearances and radio interviews that I would actually like Aajonus in person. I'll try not to be too hard on him and stick to the facts. I don't mean to use ad hominem against him or anything like that.

My social graces are admittedly not the best, so I think I sometimes come across as more harsh than I mean to be.

[TylerDurden]

*** WARNING: potentially revolting discussion below ***

Tyler wrote:Yes, I meant that REGULAR coprophagia had not been witnessed among wild carnivores, but in looking back I see that I didn't specify "regular." Sorry for the confusion. Domestic dog coprophagia is not particularly relevant to wild animal behavior, given the deficient non-wild diet they are fed, so I'll assume you mean wild dogs. My understanding of wild dog and wolf coprophagia is that it is occasional and only practiced when food is scarce or deficient or for other temporary reasons, such as medicinal ones perhaps, whereas regular coprophagia only occurs among heavy plant eaters which are deficient in certain nutrients like B12. In other words, I was agreeing with you where you stated that "many [coprophagic animals] are herbivores [not carnivores] which need special bacteria to predigest certain plant-matter or have inefficient digestive systems like rabbits who need to eat their faeces one more time in order to properly digest their food." Did I misunderstand you? My knowledge of the subject is rather limited--are you aware of any observational evidence of regular coprophagia among well-fed carnivores?

Coprophagia is a standard, regular practice among carnivores in the wild, it's mentioned as a routine habit in general entries for "carnivore". There are various explanations offered:- 1) that carnivores use the faeces to mask their scent  or because of extreme famine or 2):-"  Many carnivores also eat herbivore dung, presumably to obtain essential nutrients that they could not otherwise obtain, since their dentition and digestive system do not permit efficient processing of vegetable matter." Oh, and a third explanation is that predator-carnivores like to sample the faeces of prey in order to determine the diet of the latter(and therefore where the prey are likely to stay around) and to determine more precisely the scent/taste of their prey. Another obvious suggestion has been put forward by many owners of raw-fed dogs, that carnivores need lots of bacteria - while this concerned the liking of their dogs for high-meat, the same argument could be used for faeces.Of course, while coprophagia is a regular practice among carnivores, it may not be as essential to life as it is for herbivores.


Well this topic is sure to scare some people away, but I generally don't shy from controversy, so what the heck. Interesting story. I hadn't heard that one, but I did hear that the Mongol armies would drink horse dung tea (along with horse blood) when meat was scarce. Not because they thought it was a healthy staple food or necessary regular detoxicant, but to avoid starvation.

Your and Tyler's comments also reminded me that Bear Grisham drank fluid squeezed from fresh elephant dung as a cure for dysentary, which is apparently also practiced in parts of Africa. In light of that I suppose that advocacy of coprophagia by Aajonus might not seem so outlandish for treating lethal diseases like cancer, but I hope to heck that Tyler is right and high meat is sufficient treatment, because I hate to think of anyone having to use a copraphagia cure. On the other hand, the more I think about it these points and my own remembrances from nature/survival shows past, the less strange Aajonus' views on this topic seem, but I'd rather not think about it much.

In the Middle-Ages, there were similiar oddball claims such as cures involving drinking vomit, snot  etc. While I have a lot of respect for herbal medicine, I don't believe they got it always right, and indeed got it wrong a lot of the time re bloodletting and other "cures".

[majormark]

Scott Wheeler mentions in his blog the "worm farm" and he seems really big on the primal diet.

Maybe the carnivores in the wild practice coprophagia because they can not prepare their own "high meat".

[PaleoPhil]

Coprophagia is a standard, regular practice among carnivores in the wild, it's mentioned as a routine habit in general entries for "carnivore". There are various explanations offered:- 1) that carnivores use the faeces to mask their scent  or because of extreme famine or 2):-"  Many carnivores also eat herbivore dung, presumably to obtain essential nutrients that they could not otherwise obtain, since their dentition and digestive system do not permit efficient processing of vegetable matter."

The "extreme famine" reason, which I cited myself, doesn't explain "a standard, regular practice." The scent-masking, nutrient-deficiency, prey location, and bacterial supplementation reasons would explain a regular practice. However, the nutrient deficiency explanation (the need to eat partially processed vegetable matter to obtain unspecified nutrients or fiber) doesn't make sense, because wolves discard the partially-digested vegetable matter contents of rumens:

"Wolves usually tear into the body cavity of large prey and pull out and consume the larger internal organs, such as lungs, heart, and liver. The large rumen (weighing about 60 kg or 132 pounds for a moose) is usually punctured during removal and its contents spilled. The vegetation in the intestinal tract is of no interest to wolves, but the stomach lining and intestinal wall are consumed and their contents further strewn about the kill site." (Wolves: behavior, ecology, and conservation, by L. David Mech, Luigi Boitani, 2003)

Wolves will even laboriously nibble away at a frozen stomach to avoid ingesting its contents: "If the stomach of a large prey animal freezes before wolves find the carcass (e.g., if it died from starvation, accident, or earlier wounding by wolves), the wolves commonly consumed the entire stomach wall by laborious nibbling with their incisors." (Mech and Boitani, 2003)

"while coprophagia is a regular practice among carnivores, it may not be as essential to life as it is for herbivores."

It's definitely less essential to survival for carnivores, but I can't find any research indicating that it's even a normal, regular practice for wild carnivores who are eating a diet with sufficient nutrients and calories. There is tons of info on the Web re: coprophagia among wild herbivores and domesticated dogs (who eat deficient diets containing foods they are not designed to eat, like grains and soy), but precious little of it re: wild carnivores. If you don't believe me, do a little googling yourself. Here are some examples:

Coprophagia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coprophagia#Coprophagia_in_animals

"Capybara, rabbits, hamsters and other related species do not have a complex ruminant digestive system. Instead they extract more nutrition from grass by giving their food a second pass through the gut. Soft fecal pellets of partially digested food are excreted and generally consumed immediately. They also produce normal droppings, which are not eaten.

Young elephants, pandas, koalas, and hippos eat the feces of their mother to obtain the bacteria required to properly digest vegetation found on the savanna and in the jungle. When they are born, their intestines do not contain these bacteria (they are completely sterile). Without them, they would be unable to obtain any nutritional value from plants.

Gorillas eat their own feces and the feces of other gorillas. Similar behavior has also been observed among Chimpanzees. Such behavior may serve to improve absorption of vitamins or of nutritive elements made available from the re-ingestion of seeds. ...."

Whereas when domesticated dogs engage in regular copraphagia, it seems to be viewed as an aberrant behavior, possibly "due to various medical problems." ("Owner Documentation of Coprophagia in the Canine," http://web.archive.org/web/20070427142031/http://www.vetmed.wsu.edu/pets/_archive/study.htm)

One common factor cited as reasons for regular coprophagia in both wild herbivores and domesticated dogs is diets deficient in certain nutrients that are plentiful and biovailable in meats, such as folate and B12 (cobalamin) (Handbook of behavior problems of the dog and cat, by Gary M. Landsberg; "COPROPHAGIA AND FEEDING," http://www.petngarden.com/dogs/dogs12.php). Is this just coincidence?

"Human faeces can contain significant B12. A study has shown that a group of Iranian vegans obtained adequate B12 from unwashed vegetables which had been fertilised with human manure. Faecal contamination of vegetables and other plant foods can make a significant contribution to dietary needs, particularly in areas where hygiene standards may be low. This may be responsible for the lack of aneamia due to B12 deficiency in vegan communities in developing countries." (Vitamin B12, http://www.vegsoc.org/info/b12.html)

In the Middle-Ages, there were similiar oddball claims such as cures involving drinking vomit, snot  etc. While I have a lot of respect for herbal medicine, I don't believe they got it always right, and indeed got it wrong a lot of the time re bloodletting and other "cures".

Yes, I think nearly everyone gets some things right and others wrong. I no of no one who gets everything right, including myself.

[RawZi]

"Wolves usually tear into the body cavity of large prey and pull out and consume the larger internal organs, such as lungs, heart, and liver. The large rumen (weighing about 60 kg or 132 pounds for a moose) is usually punctured during removal and its contents spilled. The vegetation in the intestinal tract is of no interest to wolves, but the stomach lining and intestinal wall are consumed and their contents further strewn about the kill site." (Wolves: behavior, ecology, and conservation, by L. David Mech, Luigi Boitani, 2003)

Wolves will even laboriously nibble away at a frozen stomach to avoid ingesting its contents: "If the stomach of a large prey animal freezes before wolves find the carcass (e.g., if it died from starvation, accident, or earlier wounding by wolves), the wolves commonly consumed the entire stomach wall by laborious nibbling with their incisors." (Mech and Boitani, 2003)
It's definitely less essential to survival for carnivores, but I can't find any research indicating that it's even a normal, regular practice for wild carnivores who are eating a diet with sufficient nutrients and calories. There is tons of info on the Web re: coprophagia among wild herbivores and domesticated dogs (who eat deficient diets containing foods they are not designed to eat, like grains and soy), but precious little of it re: wild carnivores. If you don't believe me, do a little googling yourself. Here are some examples:

Coprophagia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coprophagia#Coprophagia_in_animals

"Capybara, rabbits, hamsters and other related species do not have a complex ruminant digestive system. Instead they extract more nutrition from grass by giving their food a second pass through the gut. Soft fecal pellets of partially digested food are excreted and generally consumed immediately. They also produce normal droppings, which are not eaten.

Young elephants, pandas, koalas, and hippos eat the feces of their mother to obtain the bacteria required to properly digest vegetation found on the savanna and in the jungle. When they are born, their intestines do not contain these bacteria (they are completely sterile). Without them, they would be unable to obtain any nutritional value from plants.

Gorillas eat their own feces and the feces of other gorillas. Similar behavior has also been observed among Chimpanzees. Such behavior may serve to improve absorption of vitamins or of nutritive elements made available from the re-ingestion of seeds. ...."

Whereas when domesticated dogs engage in regular copraphagia, it seems to be viewed as an aberrant behavior, possibly "due to various medical problems." ("Owner Documentation of Coprophagia in the Canine," http://web.archive.org/web/20070427142031/http://www.vetmed.wsu.edu/pets/_archive/study.htm)

One common factor cited as reasons for regular coprophagia in both wild herbivores and domesticated dogs is diets deficient in certain nutrients that are plentiful and biovailable in meats, such as folate and B12 (cobalamin) (Handbook of behavior problems of the dog and cat, by Gary M. Landsberg; "COPROPHAGIA AND FEEDING," http://www.petngarden.com/dogs/dogs12.php).

    I've never eaten "COPRO", nor has aajonus advised anyone I know to, nor have they tried it.  I first read about it years ago in a book provided at a vegan restaurant, while I was vegan.  In aajonus' book it says he prescribed it to a very sick woman who wouldn't try high meat.  Eating it got her well. 

    I started a discussion on it on GI2MR; because a well respected member of these forums threw the idea out there on forum there that aajonus is decredited because as part of primal diet you have to eat poop.  One of the vegans responded to my discussion on like the 26 page of it that his daddy showed him more or less that definitely carnivores eat stomach contents, so that I should too or become vegan again. 

    I had a dog who ate commercial non-organic dog food.  After getting very sick, we switched to a nearly vegan fresh diet, which worked so well.  The dog did eat poo sometimes.  Now I understand.  Thank you.

[PaleoPhil]

   I've never eaten "COPRO", nor has aajonus advised anyone I know to, nor have they tried it.  I first read about it years ago in a book provided at a vegan restaurant, while I was vegan.

Yes, I've heard a Hindi-Indian vegan recommend coprophagia, and another one recommend drinking urine, in the past, but I can't find any sources on vegan-recommended coprophagia now. It apparently was more common among vegans before manufactured supplements were invented.

In aajonus' book it says he prescribed it to a very sick woman who wouldn't try high meat.  Eating it got her well.

Aha! Thanks for the additional information. Only recommending it when the patient refused high meats makes it much less strange than simply recommending coprophagia in general. But, my word, I wonder why she chose feces over high meat? Still, if I were Aajonus I think I would have tried to find an alternative, such as eating bacteria-rich soil, perhaps, or maybe extracting the bacteria from the high meat, the way they do with probiotic supplements taken from fermented dairy products? Even recommending coprophagia to a single patient will earn him extreme ridicule from the medical community and general populace.

that definitely carnivores eat stomach contents, so that I should too or become vegan again.

Yes, my sources (such as Wolves: behavior, ecology, and conservation, by L. David Mech, Luigi Boitani, 2003) indicate that's a vegan/vegetarian fallacy, among many. Some vegans actually claim that they don't need B12 supplements because they get B12 from the animal feces in the soil on the vegetables they eat.

I had a dog who ate commercial non-organic dog food.  After getting very sick, we switched to a nearly vegan fresh diet, which worked so well.  The dog did eat poo sometimes.  Now I understand.  Thank you. [/color][/b][/size]

Your welcome. The nutrient-deficiency explanation for chronic coprophagia among domestic dogs does make the most sense to me, though further study is needed, as with most dietary subjects (because diet gets studied so little as compared to drugs and surgery, for both animals and humans).

[cherimoya_kid]

The nutrient-deficiency explanation for chronic coprophagia among domestic dogs does make the most sense to me, though further study is needed, as with most dietary subjects (because diet gets studied so little as compared to drugs and surgery, for both animals and humans).

Cats never eat "copro", that I have seen, but I've seen a LOT of dogs that have.  I will grant that cats are probably better able to get nutrition from small animals that they catch around the house, like mice, etc., but I'm not sure that totally explains the difference. Where I live, dogs are often known to kill and eat rabbits, groundhogs, and other small animals.  I live in a very rural area, and such animals are very common.  These are the same dogs that will eat every scrap of poo of any kind that they can find, whether human poo, cat poo, etc. I would guess that these dogs are getting a fairly similar amount of nutrition from fresh kills as our local cat population.  

[TylerDurden]

The "extreme famine" reason, which I cited myself, doesn't explain "a standard, regular practice." The scent-masking, nutrient-deficiency, prey location, and bacterial supplementation reasons would explain a regular practice. However, the nutrient deficiency explanation (the need to eat partially processed vegetable matter to obtain unspecified nutrients or fiber) doesn't make sense, because wolves discard the partially-digested vegetable matter contents of rumens:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coprophagia#Coprophagia_in_animals

[/quote]

The  problem with the above study is that it's been pointed out that, in some cases, where the prey is too small for such finicky separating of contents, the wolf does indeed eat the stomach-contents:-
http://rawdogfood.com.au/carnivores.html
 It's also suggested that wolves would eat everything, even stomach-contents, when facing famine(though the latter would not count as "regular", of course). Another point is that the faeces consisting of plant-matter would be far more predigested than plant-matter in the stomach, thus making it actually more likely for wolves to eat faeces than the stomach-contents of herbivores.One has to also bear in mind that no animal is a strict carnivore or strict herbivore:- wolves eat berries, cattle inadvertently eat insects found on grasses etc.:-
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TmuYTb6ynbg

Whereas when domesticated dogs engage in regular copraphagia, it seems to be viewed as an aberrant behavior, possibly "due to various medical problems." ("Owner Documentation of Coprophagia in the Canine," http://web.archive.org/web/20070427142031/http://www.vetmed.wsu.edu/pets/_archive/study.htm)

  I'm suspicious of the usual claim that coprophagia among domesticated dogs is aberrant behaviour as it's viewed from the human POV which is against the idea. I would be more interested in the accounts of raw-feeding dog-owners as to whether their dogs eat faeces or not. They certainly go in for high-meat, judging from reports.

"Human faeces can contain significant B12. A study has shown that a group of Iranian vegans obtained adequate B12 from unwashed vegetables which had been fertilised with human manure. Faecal contamination of vegetables and other plant foods can make a significant contribution to dietary needs, particularly in areas where hygiene standards may be low. This may be responsible for the lack of aneamia due to B12 deficiency in vegan communities in developing countries." (Vitamin B12, http://www.vegsoc.org/info/b12.html)

That said, I have come across some claims that the body is able to survive for years/decades without vitamin b12(referring to modern vegan diets minus faeces) and that the body may be able to compensate in some way for the deficiency. I think it's been suggested that b12 deficiency is more of an issue for children growing up raw vegan.

[ivanrk]

He didn't want to talk about the veggie juice issue, and for sure is ignorant around the dairy issue. He recommended me to go with fish and chicken to get my lymph nodes to calm down. I also wonder if he's right about the fruit diet causing my spleen to get enlarged...

 Aajonus seems right -   http://drbass.com/aboutfruit.html

[livingthelife]

the accounts of raw-feeding dog-owners as to whether their dogs eat faeces or not

My dog is on raw real food. She eats rabbit feces whenever it's available. She does not eat the feces of cats or dogs - she smells it and then urinates on it. She has never eaten her own feces.

I always thought that, in pet dogs, this was a sign of malnourishment.

[goodsamaritan]

 Aajonus seems right -   http://drbass.com/aboutfruit.html

Thank you very much for this wonderful article!
Made me think about experimenting with water fasts.

[PaleoPhil]

My dog is on raw real food. She eats rabbit feces whenever it's available. She does not eat the feces of cats or dogs - she smells it and then urinates on it. She has never eaten her own feces.

I always thought that, in pet dogs, this was a sign of malnourishment.

My childhood dog also did not eat his own feces, nor has any dog I've walked done any more than sniff dog feces. That's one reason I'm skeptical of the claim that a dog regularly eating its own feces and/or those of other dogs is "normal" in the sense of being natural and an indicator of good health. We fed our dog better than most dogs in the town--never giving it kibble, because it made him bloat--so that may be part of the reason why he didn't engage in coprophagia.

As for eating rabbit feces, perhaps that could be related to getting to know a prey animal, as Tyler suggested, rather than necessarily due to a dietary deficiency. I don't know.

The science articles, TV shows, etc. I've seen that covered primate copraphagia indicate that herbivorous and frugivorous primates regularly eat their own feces during seasons in which fauna foods like insects are scarce, so as to get folate, B12 and other nutrients. (one science TV program even showed chimps defecating in their hands and eating their own feces immediately after they came out). Whereas I've never heard of the carnivorous tarsier primates engaging in coprophagia.

------

As for Tyler's posted video showing wolves eating berries. I already knew that wild canines like wolves and coyotes eat berries and to me that is not evidence of regular coprophagia of their feces, but of berry eating. Wolves are facultative carnivores, not obligate carnivores, so it should be no surprise to anyone that they sometimes eat plant foods.

[PaleoPhil]

Here's some first-hand observation of a wolf emptying stomach contents even when extremely hungry (though not starving), along with some other important points that match what I have also found elsewhere in my research:

Primal Diet Primal Mind Sally Fallon Interview
Voice of America
Conducted by Nora Gedgaudas, author of Primal Body-Primal Mind
6/3/09

SF: [W]e know from the early explorers that the fat was what [Native Americans] mostly wanted and they often threw away the muscle meats. If the animal was too lean they threw it away. They never ate [only] lean meat, they always ate it with the fat."

NG: ... I've actually watched it happen ... I spent a whole summer of my life living with wild wolves, less than 500 miles from the North Pole. ... I was able to watch firsthand what the wolves ate and what they didn't eat, and the organ meats were the first things to go [to be eaten] when they made a kill and what was left over--the muscle meat--was something that was ... left behind for the more subordinate animals that were just sort of picking up scraps behind the rest of the pack and just as an interesting aside, ... you hear a lot of vegans talk about when a predator makes a kill the first thing they eat is the stomach, because that's where all the water-rich vegetables are.... We actually observed the exact opposite. In fact we used ... the stomach with a wolf that was a subordinate animal that didn't have much to eat that particular summer and we tossed the stomach her way and consistently she just urinated on it and walked away, and towards the summer when she got really, really, really desperate there was one day we tossed out a stomach of an animal and she gingerly tore it open with her teeth and then shook it as hard as she could until all the stuff inside was shaken out of there, and then she basically ate the tripe.

....

SF: What they normally eat first is the liver. ....

NG: Yup.

SF: Now the Native Americans and the traditional peoples, they would eat the marrow...which was mostly fat and mostly saturated fat.

....

SF: And you can eat it raw, sort of like eating butter. They ate the brains of course which are high in fat and cholesterol and they ate the liver and then they would render or save as much fat as possible from the animal, and then they would take a little bit of the lean meat and smoke it or dry it and they ate that with the fat.

============

Here's another confirmational source with an interesting additional note on the natural preservation of wolves' food by freezing...


Wolves: Behavior, Ecology, and Conservation By L. David Mech, Luigi Boitani (Hardcover - Nov 23, 2003), p. 123:

"Freezing of carcasses provides a food bank that reduces loss to other scavengers and preserves food for wolves. ...

Many wolves feeding centrally at a kill usually results in squabbles, and wolves with little social standing must wait their turn, especially if food is short or prey is small. High-ranking wolves may complete their initial feeding on a fresh kill in an hour or less (Murie 1944; Mech 1970). ....

Wolves usually tear into the body cavity of large prey and pull out and consume the larger internal organs, such as lungs, heart, and liver. The large rumen (weighing about 60 kg or 132 pounds for a moose) is usually punctured during removal and its contents spilled. The vegetation in the intestinal tract is of no interest to wolves, but the stomach lining and intestinal wall are consumed and their contents further strewn about the kill site."

[Hannibal]

(... they would eat the marrow...which was mostly fat and mostly saturated fat.

That's not true. Bone marrow is rich in MUFA - 59-67%; SFA content is only about 28%

[raw]

That's not true. Bone marrow is rich in MUFA - 59-67%; SFA content is only about 28%

can you tell me what's MUFA!! i give my sone bone marrow with the muscle meat when i don't have any other fats are not available. Is it okay?

[RawZi]

can you tell me what's MUFA!! i give my sone bone marrow with the muscle meat when i don't have any other fats are not available. Is it okay?

    Thank you for asking about what's safe for your toddler. 

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC60864/

    I wouldn't want to get arterial sclerosis, or is the link only pertaining to cooked?  Another reason to consider cutting out all carbs too.  I have been eating (raw) marrow, and didn't feel well one day last week.  I've eaten other food too though, but suspected this batch of marrow I ate.  So I went for bloodwork.  If it shows anything hinting at AS, I'll tell you.  One of my relatives had an amputation due to that disease.

http://diabetes.about.com/b/2008/01/13/mufa-rich-diet-can-reduce-belly-fat.htm

    These oils make my throat burn.  I avoid them.  Marrow doesn't feel bad at all on my throat though.  Basically, I like it as a fat, better than suet even.
 

[TylerDurden]

That's not true. Bone marrow is rich in MUFA - 59-67%; SFA content is only about 28%

Exactly. That's one reason among many why I stopped believing in the vast majority of claims that  Sally Fallon, the WAPF and Weston-Price have made about food.

[TylerDurden]

      I wouldn't want to get arterial sclerosis, or is the link only pertaining to cooked? -

It's only an issue for cooked food as arteriosclerosis is linked heavily with heat-created toxins such as advanced glycation end products/advanced lipoxidation end products.

[Hannibal]

can you tell me what's MUFA!!

MUFA - monounsaturated fatty acids
PUFA -  polyunsaturated fatty acids
SFA - saturated fatty acids

[PaleoPhil]

That's not true. Bone marrow is rich in MUFA - 59-67%; SFA content is only about 28%

Good catch. I knew that but missed it because I wasn't focusing on that, for my main point was re: the ridiculous claim of veg-heads that wolves eat stomach contents first or preferentially, which Gedgaudas personally witnessed to be a lie and on which I have personally seen a video showing a wolf taking great pains to empty out the stomach and entrails (wish I could find that video again). Unfortunately, Fallon's error distracted from the main point. Fallon was actually correct about a matter more relevant to what I was discussing--the alpha male wolf eats the liver first, not the stomach, which I have heard from multiple sources (such as the Mech and Boitani source I provided).

So if you hear someone claim that wolves or other canines eat the stomach or intestine contents first, you know they don't know what they're talking about and they're more focused on spreading pro-veg propaganda that they're parroting from a secondary, rather than a primary, source.

I found Gedgaudas' input much more interesting, BTW. It was intriguing how the host asking the questions ended up providing more interesting input of her own, to the point that Fallon was amazed. I hadn't been very interested in Gedgaudas up til now, given her support of the WAPF, but her direct work with wolves is very interesting. I'm finding that we can learn a lot by studying wild animals.

[RawZi]

... arteriosclerosis is linked heavily with heat-created toxins such as advanced glycation end products/advanced lipoxidation end products.

    Thank you.  Margarine too I heard.  Could be a family thing passed down as well.  We ate steamed greens and we'd put margarine on top of our servings.  My Mother didn't though.  She ate her vegetables plain.  Like I said, I was raised with some unconscious paleo tendencies/influence.

[RawZi]

"Capybara, rabbits, hamsters and other related species do not have a complex ruminant digestive system. Instead they extract more nutrition from grass by giving their food a second pass through the gut. Soft fecal pellets of partially digested food are excreted and generally consumed immediately. They also produce normal droppings, which are not eaten.

    Did you know many domestic animals will happily and healthily eat meat?  
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0zV8HnHp1I4
    Hamsters are calmer and more aware if permitted to regularly hunt.  They are not from an environment rich in alfalfa or lettuce.  They are naturally nocturnal underground desert hunters.  They may be able to live well on grass, but they get stronger and live even longer on raw or live insects.

[djr_81]

    Did you know many domestic animals will happily and healthily eat meat? 
    Hamsters are calmer and more aware if permitted to regularly hunt.  They are not from an environment rich in alfalfa or lettuce.  They are naturally nocturnal underground desert hunters.  They may be able to live well on grass, but they get stronger and live even longer on raw or live insects.

My wife and I have a wild-caught wood turtle that we found behind our house as a hatchling last June.
He's thriving on a diet of 95% meat including crickets, worms, slugs, snails, and of course some of my muscle and organ meats. The other 5% of the diet is berries (he adores raspberries) and a very seldom given (less than once a month) feeding of formed commercial "turtle food" (my wife is concerned that he won't get all his nutrients without this and I haven't convinced her otherwise).
In the almost 8 months we've had him he's grown very quickly; from a bit over an inch and a half long to 6 inches long. He's also very aware of everything around him and incredibly bright.