The old vegan line

[GK420]

We've all heard the "there's nothing in animal products you can't get from plant foods" line from our vegan friends, but clearly there is something about meat that is not present in fruits, vegetables, nuts etc., so what do you respond with when you have this thrown at you?

[Wattlebird]

Each to their own.

One organism endlessly recycling, death and new life one indivisible movement.

[goodsamaritan]

We've all heard the "there's nothing in animal products you can't get from plant foods" line from our vegan friends, but clearly there is something about meat that is not present in fruits, vegetables, nuts etc., so what do you respond with when you have this thrown at you?

The "vegan" who says that has not enough EXPERIENCE, with himself, and with healing other people.

I've tried, raw vegan, raw fruitarian and that statement is FALSE.
Raw vegan, raw fruitarian is just for temporary detox, for temporary restoration of digestive organs that were f*cked up by SAD.
No animal food is MALNOURISHING for me. (me at 112 lbs, always cold in a tropical climate.)
Once my digestive system was back online, it is animal food that nourished me. (instantly jacked up to 123 lbs, and now I'm 135 lbs.)
(On SAD I was obese at 175 lbs.)

And I also heal people personally.
Not having animal food for the sick is like entering a boxing match with only one arm.
Which is STUPID.
Healing people, I will use everything in my arsenal.
And it just so happens that raw animal foods work, and work so really well.
It is an admission that we are HUMAN, we are at the top of the food chain, top predator, and we need healthy raw animal foods to be healthy.

For example, the 51 year old guy I helped with his pneumonia.  He was dying.  I first tried mostly fruit on him, but he wasn't digesting.  So I switched him to mostly raw animal foods.  In 10 days he went back to work.

[goodsamaritan]

The old vegan line is because those immature vegans *THINK* animals are only eaten *COOKED*.

And they think animal food only comes from *FACTORY* raised animals.

And they have no appreciation of paleolithic studies into the original human diet, what the evidence shows.

Just as raw vegans are very particular about where their fruits and their veggies come from...

Raw paleo dieters are also very particular about

- where our fruits come from and how it is handled
- where our vegetables come from and how it is handled
- where our animal food comes from and how it is handled

--------

Plus there are those "vegans" who *CHEAT* just enough they don't hit that *WALL*
Say they eat: eggs, fish, milk... and they still call themselves "vegans".
And that is how I expose most of those "vegans"... frauds.
A lot of us here really followed VEGANISM to the letter, just vegs and fruit... and by experience, it was a malnourishing time.

[cherimoya_kid]

We've all heard the "there's nothing in animal products you can't get from plant foods" line from our vegan friends, but clearly there is something about meat that is not present in fruits, vegetables, nuts etc., so what do you respond with when you have this thrown at you?

I am a moderator, so I just ban them.  I don't have any vegan friends or acquaintances, so the internet is the only place I deal with them.

--No evolutionary biologist or paleontologist would seriously argue that there has ever been a truly vegan population. 

--Zookeepers make an effort to feed animals a diet similar to their natural diet.  Vegans would argue that this is the most humane thing to do, and the ideal way to treat animals. 

Given those two facts, why are humans the exception to that? 

I'm not saying that humans can't, in some cases, be successfully vegan.  There are whole villages in China, so I've heard, that are vegan, and have been for generations.  However, those populations ate very little meat for many centuries before Buddhism turned them into vegans.   They transitioned slowly, and had time to adapt.   

It wouldn't be realistic to expect someone of Eskimo or Masai descent to be a vegan, on the other hand. Those populations have been eating lots of animal products for thousands of years.

I remember reading about two polar bears that were being fed dog food in some circus in the Caribbean a few years back.  Animal activists got all up in arms about it, and removed the bears to a zoo, I think, because the bears weren't eating their natural diet, and weren't in their natural habitat.  The vegans get mad when bears aren't fed their traditional diet.  Why would they tolerate humans not being fed their traditional diet?

Again, I don't think it's impossible to be moderately healthy and vegan.  However, you'll be healthier with some high-quality animal products, pretty much always.

My argument isn't with the health-focused vegans, anyway.  They can be converted. It's the ethical vegans that are dangerous terrorists, and who cannot be reasoned with.

[TylerDurden]

Sorry, but I have heard of vegans who deliberately raise their pets(dogs especially) on vegan diets, so I doubt they are interested in "natural" diets for animals.

As regards villages in China etc., I have my doubts. Sure, I recall one Iranian  vegan sect being able to thrive due to using their manure to fertilise their plants(so they could get enough vitamin B12), but I suspect that long-term infertility is an inevitable consequence for those on genuine 100% vegan diets, thus resulting in extinction of such people.

[GK420]

I have noticed myself that a worryingly large number of ex-vegans have said they felt healthier when they moved to the paleo diet (raw or cooked), which just makes me wonder how delusional vegans really are if they think they're at the peak of human health. Fruitarians I can easily say are a joke as they are mostly underweight and look exhausted, though it is harder to criticise vegans with huge arms who place a heavy emphasis on greens and stuff like that. Then again, people can get ripped on nasty diets full of raw grains, artificial protein powers and steroids so I don't see what relevance it actually has to good health.

What I was wondering though is if we know exactly what it is in meat that is so good for us. It seems that animal fats & proteins are unique and somehow significantly different from plant based sources. A better example of what I mean is when we talk about the omega 3 in fish; broken record-player vegans love mentioning how flax seed is a good/more efficient source of it (though it seems to be their ONLY replacement). I just like to have some science in my pocket for when veg*ns ask why exactly we need meat, other than "it's good for you", seeing as they consider themselves to be healthy enough without it.

[GK420]

For example, the 51 year old guy I helped with his pneumonia.  He was dying.  I first tried mostly fruit on him, but he wasn't digesting.  So I switched him to mostly raw animal foods.  In 10 days he went back to work.

And only minutes ago my dad was saying healthy people can fall terminally ill.  Guess he doesn't know what healthy is.

[Dorothy]

I say to them, that for some people that might be true and for others it might not and that the important thing is to keep an open mind if you find that it's not true for you.

I feel no different, no healthier eating raw animal foods than I did on my fairly fat-heavy vegan diet. That's just the plain truth. If anything, because I was younger and under less stress I felt better on my vegan diet. Maybe I am one of (what is starting to seem to me) the rare people which that statement that one can make everything one needs from plant foods is true.

Raw animal foods now make sense to me and is much easier than doing what was necessary to stay healthy on a vegan diet and is clearly what my husband needs. He obviously is not one of those that can make everything he needs from plant foods so eating together has been very good and having him heal up with raw foods now available to him has been a priority for me. What I didn't expect was how much more practical raw animal foods were going to be for me. My food bill is now within decent limits. My refrigerators don't look like they are going to explode filled to every nook and cranny. My shopping has become reasonable and my food preparation time and effort are now within parameters that make it enjoyable.

So, what I say is even if you are capable of making everything within yourself with just plant foods - is there a good reason why you would want to go through all that trouble and expense?  I personally believe (now that I have learned more) that more animals suffer and die from the standard agricultural practices used to grow produce than those used to raise grass-fed animals. That was a big revelation for me as well. I first learned that when researching food for my dogs and reading the Slanker's website. It was quite the shock when I learned that not all farmers torture their animals and feed them horrible things and kill them inhumanely. I think that's important to let vegans know. They have not been given the true full picture. The kindness and compassion is a beautiful thing, it's just that to be truly compassionate one needs to go past - or back before - the agricultural revolution. There is no true kindness for animals when eating from a monoculture. Until one understands what grass-fed means one cannot judge properly. If one wants to do the most to help animals I believe the best way to do that is to support the farmers who have learned how to do things sustainably with the least harm to the whole of the environment where all the animals must live.

The last thing I can do is judge vegans. I'm pretty much one of a kind with them. I've been through it all. I just welcome them to open their minds and hearts a little bit further..... and encourage them not to judge me.

[GK420]

What I didn't expect was how much more practical raw animal foods were going to be for me. My food bill is now within decent limits. My refrigerators don't look like they are going to explode filled to every nook and cranny. My shopping has become reasonable and my food preparation time and effort are now within parameters that make it enjoyable.

I actually thought a plant based diet would've been cheaper considering the amount of plant foods that actually go into feeding animals. I just hope I'm going to be able to do the raw paleo diet without making any noise on the shopping bill with larger amounts of organic beef, let alone grass fed beef (that is if I can find grass fed beef). I actually keep meaning to work out roughly how much this is going to cost and if it'll be a noticeable difference or not. I did notice that I had to eat a lot more when I was a (regular/cooked) vegan which annoyed me. The foods I ate also seemed to hate my stomach...

[cherimoya_kid]

What I was wondering though is if we know exactly what it is in meat that is so good for us. It seems that animal fats & proteins are unique and somehow significantly different from plant based sources. A better example of what I mean is when we talk about the omega 3 in fish; broken record-player vegans love mentioning how flax seed is a good/more efficient source of it (though it seems to be their ONLY replacement). I just like to have some science in my pocket for when veg*ns ask why exactly we need meat, other than "it's good for you", seeing as they consider themselves to be healthy enough without it.

There are some fatty acids and other fat-soluble compounds that are hard to find in large amounts in plants.  It's hard for some people to synthesize enough vitamin A from plant sources, and liver/kidneys have the most bio-available form. 

It's harder to get enough easily-digested minerals from plant foods...shellfish have ridiculous amounts of trace minerals and macro-minerals, and they are VERY easy to digest, compared to most plant foods.

It's not that there is no way to get everything from a plant-based diet.  It's just that some people are going to find it VERY difficult, due to both availability and digestibility of certain foods.

Finally, of course, many people will become dangerously deficient in vitamin B-12 without animal foods.  My B-12 levels went from 299 on vegan diet to 799 on raw animal foods, without any supplements.

[GK420]

There are some fatty acids and other fat-soluble compounds that are hard to find in large amounts in plants.  It's hard for some people to synthesize enough vitamin A from plant sources, and liver/kidneys have the most bio-available form. 

It's harder to get enough easily-digested minerals from plant foods...shellfish have ridiculous amounts of trace minerals and macro-minerals, and they are VERY easy to digest, compared to most plant foods.

It's not that there is no way to get everything from a plant-based diet.  It's just that some people are going to find it VERY difficult, due to both availability and digestibility of certain foods.

Finally, of course, many people will become dangerously deficient in vitamin B-12 without animal foods.  My B-12 levels went from 299 on vegan diet to 799 on raw animal foods, without any supplements.

This is what I was looking for, thanks. Vegans get really annoyed when you mention B12, it's actually quite amusing. According to durianrider (crazy raw vegan guy on YouTube if you don't know him already), B12 is an issue for everyone though, including meat eaters:

FAQ with Durianrider: b12 & zinc. #262

In regards to his comments on meat eaters having problems with getting erections, I'm guessing no one here has problems with that? He's probably doing his usual game of "raw vegan > SAD" like he always does.

[goodsamaritan]

Raw meat IS THE CURE for erections.
Opens up all those blood vessels.
blood flows better.
your penis grows larger, stays larger

The sashimi chefs know this.

[GK420]

Raw meat IS THE CURE for erections.
Opens up all those blood vessels.
blood flows better.
your penis grows larger, stays larger

The sashimi chefs know this.

Oh I think I'm going to enjoy this diet. 

But he says about fat clogging up the arteries and veins... the whole point of eating a high fat diet is that we use it as fuel and don't store it like that, right? I heard it put as sugar drives insulin drives fat.

[Dorothy]

I actually thought a plant based diet would've been cheaper considering the amount of plant foods that actually go into feeding animals. I just hope I'm going to be able to do the raw paleo diet without making any noise on the shopping bill with larger amounts of organic beef, let alone grass fed beef (that is if I can find grass fed beef). I actually keep meaning to work out roughly how much this is going to cost and if it'll be a noticeable difference or not. I did notice that I had to eat a lot more when I was a (regular/cooked) vegan which annoyed me. The foods I ate also seemed to hate my stomach...

GK - someone can eat a vegan diet for pennies - but that kind of diet is almost impossible to stay and get healthy on. That crazy hostile dude Durian Rider eats only fruit and had the lowest b12 levels ever. Not a fair general example. I get quickly very unbalanced eating only fruit. Fruit has to be a small part of my diet for me to thrive whether my diet includes animal foods or not.

For me, in order to make a vegan diet work I needed the highest quality foods with superb fats and minerals and LOTS of them. Good sproutable nuts are one of the most expensive food items one can buy. I had to eat things out of season. I had to order the best of the best oils and a whole array of seaweeds. I ate only organic - still do. I ate a wide variety of fresh greens and herbs. A least one avocado a day was regular fare. Coconuts shipped from far away. The list goes on and on of the expensive foods I felt I had to have to thrive. I thought I ate a TON and then I met other vegans that ate way more than me who didn't eat the density of fat that I ate. I went through piles of my dehydrated goodies because those seeds were very important. I bought all sorts of specialty foods. My olives - oy - so expensive. To get a wide variety of tasty and really healthy foods as a vegan (especially raw) took culinary talent, time and lots of money. I find adding grass-fed raw animal foods to my diet to has slashed my food budget radically - but I don't actually eat that much meat. I have chickens and have resources for eggs that are excellent - eggs are cheap for the nutrient punch they carry. One gallon of grass-fed raw milk for only $7 gives us enough butter and yogurt for 2 weeks eating some most days. 2 gallons is overkill - but sometimes I want more butter. When it comes to the part of the animal that I want - the fat - I can get a massive hunk of suet that lasts me forever eating some every day. Marrow bones are downright ridiculously cheap compared to nuts or avocados or organic tomatoes and bunches of organic kale... and really ... so is the grass-fed organic ground beef and the scallops that cost me $5 a piece. Why? Because I have to eat so LITTLE of these foods to get what I need. Even the grass-fed bison at the farmer's market that is $35 a pound to me is cheap compared to what I had to buy and eat to be healthy as a vegan. Remember - the big difference is whether or not the vegan is healthy. 

Going from a junky diet filled with cheap nasty foods that are simply awful (and that is going to cost you later in doctor bills and inability to work and just plain life suffering) to a really healthy diet is going to cost more cash in the short run whether it's vegan or animal foods. Believe it or not - raw animal foods is the far cheaper of the healthy alternatives probably even if it's all meat, organs and fat. I think about Lex and his Slankers dog food and suet. That's health food for close to no money and no time or effort. He probably spends less money on food than 90% of Americans and feels much better. I still probably spend ten times more than most people - but I also probably feel a hundred times better than most people. His all meat diet trumps my predominantly raw vegan diet enhanced with raw animal foods in terms of cost effectiveness by leaps. Lex proves that eating a healthy raw meat diet can be radically cheaper than eating a healthy raw vegan diet and probably even most vegan diets in general regardless of if they are organic, healthy or balanced. You'd have to eat close to nothing but rice to beat his costs and there is no vegan diet that is as easy to prepare as his diet. 

[goodsamaritan]

Oh I think I'm going to enjoy this diet. 

But he says about fat clogging up the arteries and veins... the whole point of eating a high fat diet is that we use it as fuel and don't store it like that, right? I heard it put as sugar drives insulin drives fat.

The concept: "about fat clogging up the arteries and veins" ... is wrong, it's stupid, it's false, is a perpetuated MYTH by the pharmaceutical companies to sell their inane cholesterol lowering drugs.

It is RAW animal FAT that is wild / organic / grass fed that will HEAL you.

What the pharma gang teaches you is the complete OPPOSITE.

[cherimoya_kid]

Let me have sex with DR's girlfriend.

Then we'll see who has erection issues. ROFL

[Dorothy]

You might not get turned on Cherimoya. She is so skinny that it is scary - unless concentration camp thin is your thing. The reason she has breasts is because of a boob job so it might not appeal and she dyes her hair so it probably feels awful. She also will probably spit in your face for eating animals - which might not exactly be a turn on for some.

If I had to have sex with the likes of DR to save my own life it might be almost impossible to get through it even without having to worry about the male performance thing - and if I were a guy no matter what I ate having sex with his female half would be almost impossible -- she is so unattractive in my world view. Fakeness and what she does to harm others is just too much of a turn-off.

Maybe they think that males that eat meat can't get an erection because males that eat meat don't get erections around them!

[Dorothy]

The concept: "about fat clogging up the arteries and veins" ... is wrong, it's stupid, it's false, is a perpetuated MYTH by the pharmaceutical companies to sell their inane cholesterol lowering drugs.

It is RAW animal FAT that is wild / organic / grass fed that will HEAL you.

What the pharma gang teaches you is the complete OPPOSITE.

Yeah - what he said.

[TylerDurden]

Not correct. It is perfectly true that COOKED animal fat clogs up the arteries etc., but that is because it contains lots of heat-created toxins in it. By contrast, RAW animal fat does not clog the arteries at all. Check the various studies, you will find that they ALL focus on COOKED animal fats/saturated fats, never raw ones.

[goodsamaritan]

Not correct. It is perfectly true that COOKED animal fat clogs up the arteries etc., but that is because it contains lots of heat-created toxins in it. By contrast, RAW animal fat does not clog the arteries at all. Check the various studies, you will find that they ALL focus on COOKED animal fats/saturated fats, never raw ones.

Tyler is right!

Newbies need to stress on the fact that:

- RAW FAT is healing
- COOKED FAT is not healing.

Let those cooked paleo dieters know this.

[GK420]

LOL I see this has turned into an 'insult the vegan' thread. I think his girlfriend is decent looking, but she is far too thin. I saw the video he uploaded of her, trying to show off how amazingly healthy she looks... I wondered if he'd added the wrong pictures by accident. She even replied to a comment about her weight in one video and avoided the question by dancing and adding stupid music to it. I honestly don't know how any of their fruitarian science has any relevance to the meat vs plant argument when they both look like hell.

On the subject of healing with raw meats, it doesn't look like I'm gonna be able to heal myself any time soon if supermarket meat is as bad as it sounds.  Isn't organic grain fed good enough for the time being? I've found a site that actually sells grass fed cheaper, but it seems that parents aren't very logical people.

[TylerDurden]

Grassfed, nonorganic meat is WAY healthier than grainfed, organic meat.


There are ways of getting round this. You could get organic, grainfed meat and supplement this with raw wildcaught fish or raw fish oils from Green Pastures company.

[GK420]

There are ways of getting round this. You could get organic, grainfed meat and supplement this with raw wildcaught fish or raw fish oils from Green Pastures company.

Sainsbury's say their fish is wild caught, so  do you think will something like that do? I never really trust supermarkets when it comes to things like this.

[TylerDurden]

Sainsbury's say their fish is wild caught, so  do you think will something like that do? I never really trust supermarkets when it comes to things like this.

Go to a farmers market. Are you based in the London area at all?