The old vegan line

[GK420]

Yeah I'm in London/Essex. I checked the links posted on here to find farmer's markets and I've just been trying to find some closer ones. I have seen a farmer's market in a nearby park every now and then, though I'm not sure how often they're here.

[TylerDurden]

The lfm.org.uk website has a markets map where you need to click on the right flags to get info on where the markets are and when they appear. You should also search online for any grassfed farms in your area and contact them by phone(forget using e-mails, they rarely answer them). Some will deliver raw meats anywhere in their county or neighbouring ones.

[GK420]

The lfm.org.uk website has a markets map where you need to click on the right flags to get info on where the markets are and when they appear. You should also search online for any grassfed farms in your area and contact them by phone(forget using e-mails, they rarely answer them). Some will deliver raw meats anywhere in their county or neighbouring ones.

Well I've found a farm in Essex that seems to be pretty much what I'm looking for, but the problem here is that my mum is (for some reason) extremely reluctant to buy meat from any websites. Excuse after excuse, I think I might as well give up on that idea. Looks like Walthamstow is the closest market to me so I'll give that a go next sunday. I see one of the farmers there sells buffalo meat, so at least I get to try something new. 

[Dorothy]

Hey - you started GK by posting DR!    But really - I don't consider those guys as anywhere near a good general example of a vegan - even as a stereotype. Vegans more stereotypically are more back to nature types - not boob job, bleach blonding and promoting their extreme thinness and sexuality as a way to get people to follow them. I think it does harm. Women follow FreeLee thinking that if they eat enough fruit they are going to have her boobs and hair etc. Lying like that while insulting and attacking others for eating differently is just not right. I hate to break the news to those that haven't figured it out yet - natural breasts are made almost exclusively of FAT - not silicone. If you want big boobs - eat fat - not fruit...... or at least know that if you want to look like FreeLee you will need to find a good plastic surgeon. Eating all fruit is going to DEFLATE natural breasts. It's just reality because fruit does not have the fat that creates breasts. End of story. I actually like veganism - I was a vegan for a really long time and it did me good - I just can't stand the harm to just about everyone those two do. It's such a terribly negative message.

GK - you just gotta find a way to get grass-fed! Remember - big industry feeds their cows soy and corn which makes those cows get terrible bacteria build-up so they have to give them loads of antibiotics and hormones because of it and most of those cows are massively genetically engineered - some so unhealthy that they can only be raised to a young age because they would die soon anyway. Girls are getting their periods younger and younger because of all the hormones. You don't want female hormones do you? Those cows live horrendous horrible existences. It's just GROSS!

[GK420]

Hey - you started GK by posting DR!    But really - I don't consider those guys as anywhere near a good general example of a vegan - even as a stereotype. Vegans more stereotypically are more back to nature types - not boob job, bleach blonding and promoting their extreme thinness and sexuality as a way to get people to follow them. I think it does harm. Women follow FreeLee thinking that if they eat enough fruit they are going to have her boobs and hair etc. Lying like that while insulting and attacking others for eating differently is just not right. I hate to break the news to those that haven't figured it out yet - natural breasts are made almost exclusively of FAT - not silicone. If you want big boobs - eat fat - not fruit...... or at least know that if you want to look like FreeLee you will need to find a good plastic surgeon. Eating all fruit is going to DEFLATE natural breasts. It's just reality because fruit does not have the fat that creates breasts. End of story. I actually like veganism - I was a vegan for a really long time and it did me good - I just can't stand the harm to just about everyone those two do. It's such a terribly negative message.

Y'know for a while I actually forgot what the original point of this thread was.  I agree, not all vegans are crazy like Harvey and his girlfriend.

GK - you just gotta find a way to get grass-fed! Remember - big industry feeds their cows soy and corn which makes those cows get terrible bacteria build-up so they have to give them loads of antibiotics and hormones because of it and most of those cows are massively genetically engineered - some so unhealthy that they can only be raised to a young age because they would die soon anyway. Girls are getting their periods younger and younger because of all the hormones. You don't want female hormones do you? Those cows live horrendous horrible existences. It's just GROSS!

I have actually wondered how things like gynecomastia could be natural in boys, as they say it's a normal teenage hormone thing, and thought maybe it is to do with the hormones we consume through animals. I don't have it myself, but do get self conscious about not having as flat a chest as I probably should do. That's why I'm happy I can at least find organic meat for the time being, as I know I'm not pumping myself with boob tissue and disease. People like to argue that the UK is much better with the quality of life its animals get and therefore avoid worrying about it, but I doubt it's a hell of a lot better behind the scenes. DR definitely likes to focus on all of these horrible meat producers instead of farmers who actually care for their animals' well-being.

[Dorothy]

Yeah - it's another form of lying if you know about grass-fed and the really good farmers and just avoid mentioning them. I personally think that the one thing that we all could do that would reduce animal suffering the most would be to support local sustainable responsible small grass-feeding farmers. One could say that it's good karma. Think about it - you eat healthy well-treated animals and you grow healthy yourself.

[GK420]

Yeah, but supermarkets are what we're force fed from day one. I've always thought that supplying the whole population with grass fed meats from real farms would create a big problem though considering the amount of animals we have to (well, "have to") cram into dark, tightly squeezed factories at the moment. I suppose growing grains and soy takes up a lot of space though. I think DR has a better solution to this. 

[Dorothy]

Yeah, but supermarkets are what we're force fed from day one. I've always thought that supplying the whole population with grass fed meats from real farms would create a big problem though considering the amount of animals we have to (well, "have to") cram into dark, tightly squeezed factories at the moment. I suppose growing grains and soy takes up a lot of space though. I think DR has a better solution to this. 

I'm betcha that the human population couldn't have gotten to where it is now without all the grains. DR's approach isn't exactly going to feed vast populations - especially when he has to eat truck loads it seems of fruit every day to get the calories he thinks he needs to be fruitarian the "right" way.

PaleoPhil talks a good deal about how difficult it would become if raw paleo became the new big diet hit - all the prices would sky rocket he says. I'm just really truly blessed that he was willing to tell poor little me about his diet.

[TylerDurden]

I disagree re PP's idea. There are so many organ-meats thrown away by farmers instead of selling them, for example. Then there is a vast amount of land that would be freed if grains and similiar non-palaeo plants were no longer eaten. Plus, lots of currently non-used land such as mountains could be used for grazing goats and the like.

[goodsamaritan]

There is a thread somewhere in this forum that shows that it is grazing animals that restore the balance of nature.

That it is agriculture that has caused desertification in history.

[GK420]

I'm betcha that the human population couldn't have gotten to where it is now without all the grains. DR's approach isn't exactly going to feed vast populations - especially when he has to eat truck loads it seems of fruit every day to get the calories he thinks he needs to be fruitarian the "right" way.

Yeah, plus he doesn't take into consideration the damage bananas (apparently) do, and doesn't even care about locally grown food.

PaleoPhil talks a good deal about how difficult it would become if raw paleo became the new big diet hit - all the prices would sky rocket he says. I'm just really truly blessed that he was willing to tell poor little me about his diet.

I also thought grass fed meats would be a pricey food in such a situation, but then I took into consideration all the wasted land and other currently unused places that could be used, just like Tyler said.

There is a thread somewhere in this forum that shows that it is grazing animals that restore the balance of nature.

That it is agriculture that has caused desertification in history.

Or when we're all fighting for that one last steak, nature will take its course and the weakest will die of starvation. Nature is very good at working things out like that.  I joke. Agriculture such as dairy must also have a significant impact on meat production considering the amount of time not spent killing the animals.

[cherimoya_kid]

PaleoPhil talks a good deal about how difficult it would become if raw paleo became the new big diet hit - all the prices would sky rocket he says.

Economies of scale would mitigate that, though.  Farmers would convert their land to grazing land, and waaay more grassfed cattle would be born and raised, thus increasing the total supply.  My guess is that the price wouldn't really change much.

[Dorothy]

I think the price would have to come down a great deal if the general population and not just the upper classes, people that are sick and feel they have to, or die hard foodies like me would be willing to spend so much more on the grass-fed high quality meats (even if it is available) than their grain-based government subsidized cheapy diets.

It's really impossible to know if foods will get more expensive as demand goes up or not. So far with the foods that have gone up in demand I've noticed that the prices have simply gone up because of it. Maybe it won't be a long-term thing?

[cherimoya_kid]

Grassfed cows are actually a lot more profitable than grain-fed.  Small family farms that raise beef cattle might be able to make a living wage again.

Worse things have happened.

[Dorothy]

But big beef is so darn powerful! The laws they have gotten put in place are staggering. The FDA is in their back pocket. Do you think the small farmers could ever have a chance... really? That would be wonderful. 

Is grass-fed really more profitable? Hard to believe with the land and water usage and the extra care. All the small grass-fed farmers that I know of are struggling and a lot of farms went under this year with the drought. When all the cows are huddled together it's easy to get them water and you don't have to keep grass alive to feed them or buy good quality food when the grass isn't growing. One bad year with rain, either too much or too little, and the small farmer is in trouble. The inspections and all the laws that make it harder and harder on them - it's a real shame. Some of the farms I know of can't keep up with the demand even at higher prices and yet are still going under.

Sure hope the system can change! Wouldn't it be something if our way of eating became the norm and big cattle went down. I'd love to live to see that.

[cherimoya_kid]

Grass-fed is tremendously more profitable, there just has to be a demand for it. Yes, droughts can cause problems...but then again, not every place is prone to drought. Texas is borderline desert anyway.

[Dorothy]

Maybe it's because I'm in Austin that there is so much demand for grass-fed. People are generally more hip to that sort of thing in this town it seems. When I go to the farmer's market I have to go very early and hit only the grass-fed vendors first because they sell out so quickly. 3/4 of the time they have sold out of my grass-fed ground beef at the store I go to also. Texas is real big and it's only the far West that has experienced some desertification.  East of me is prime agricultural land - black mucky soil. As you of course know - all they would have to do is put large amounts of bison back on that land in the west and it would reverse. There has never been a drought like last year in history - and it broke all heat records though - so how to re-establish land with that going on is beyond me. I can't help but to wonder about it and all the floods up north and what the relationship to the weather manipulation technologies being experimented with is. If they keep up that kind of nonsense who knows what the future of food will be. Whether it's mono crops or grass-fed animals - there has to be at least a rudimentary predictability of weather.

[cherimoya_kid]

East Texas is extremely dry too, compared to the East Coast, where I live.  I lived in Dallas for 4 years, so I know what I'm talking about.   Texas is not the whole world, Dorothy.  Repeat this to yourself until you absorb it.  ROFL

There is weather predictability.  East Texas is not going to suddenly become a rain forest or tundra, and Seattle is not suddenly going to become a hot desert.    Drought is Texas is like excessive rains in Seattle.  Not shocking to the rest of us.

[Dorothy]

I am actually fairly new to Texas and spent most of my life in the Northeast. I talk about Texas because that is where I have to get MY food from at present. It also supplies a good deal of the cattle for the rest of the country. If grass-fed demand is so hard to keep up with in cattle country - it makes me wonder what will happen elsewhere.

Those floods up North (not normal like in Seattle) that corresponded to the radical drought here were extreme. Vermont had very strange weather which was the bookend to the drought. There are also other extreme weather patterns happening due to weather manipulation. East Texas is not desert was my point - not that it was tropical or ever would be. Desertification is not a global Texas attribute - but I am starting to wonder if it will become one. You can't make Dubai a lush green landscape (which is presently being attempted with weather manipulation) without causing issues in other places. You cannot have weather war-fare without all sorts of mishaps and unforeseen consequences.

I sometimes wonder if the supply of any kind of food - neolithic or paleolithic - might not suddenly be terminated in today's bizarre world. What I have learned about gmo and self-destructing seeds and how at present the vast majority of animals for food are fed gmo corn and soy has made realize that the general population is at risk. Here in my little part of the vast world the demand for grass-fed meats makes grass-fed bison $35 a pound when and if you can get it before it sells out. If the whole country suddenly no longer had it's regular meat or suddenly woke up and demanded only grass-fed and if you mixed in just a little weather hocus pocus  - the prices could be astronomical.

I sure do hope it goes the other way and slowly but surely more and more small farmers turn to grass-fed because it makes better economical sense and then there is more supply and prices go down. I just somehow doubt it will happen that way. I think it will be more like butter. Take for instance the drought in England jacking up price of feed and therefore there is not enough butter: http://www.thegrocer.co.uk/fmcg/butter-price-hikes-loom-in-the-wake-of-drought/218917.article and then the butter shortage in Norway just because enough percentage of the people decided that it was actually very good for them.

I know I'm talking from my little experiences in my small neck of the woods - but all the examples I see around me point to prices going higher as demand goes up. For instance, marrow bones used be dirt cheap. People started asking for them so the price went from
$1 a pound to $5 a pound in one fell swoop at the store where I had bought them.