Infectious causes for autoimmune disease?

[Aaaaaa]

What do you guys think about this info saying that MS and other autoimmune diseases are caused by bacteria and viruses?  I am reading "Fear of the Invisible" right now, and it seems to be pointing towards the fact that viruses are natural substances produced by cells (perhaps when they are toxic), not contagious things.  I am just sort of confused now, because of all the stuff I've heard about how bacteria/viruses/parasites and normal and can be beneficial...but then if there is a lot of evidance that people with MS are infected with a bacteria and they improve when given antibiotics....HMM??  And somewhere it said that Dr. Wahl's diet was anti-microbial?

This is where I read it:
http://perfecthealthdiet.com/?p=1002
http://perfecthealthdiet.com/?p=157
and
http://cpnhelp.org/

[Adora]

Most antibiotics come from bacteria, mold, or a derivative of them. Are high meat, clabbored dairy, and cultured vegetables already on your plate? Have you noticed any improvements with those? Are you able to get brain, or spinal cord? Can these items be high? Also, is there a way to make fat high? The reason why I'm thinking high fat and nervous tissue is because if the antibiotics due help, then whole food that is targeted to the types of tissue that is damaged in MS, seems most specific to healing it. Sorry I have only questions and no answers. I'm hoping somebody else might have the experience to share.
     Your so beautiful Sile. How has MS touched you? Have you tried other meds for MS. What has it been like? If you have already posted on this I'm sorry, I still miss a lot.

[Adora]

I have seen a lot of people with MS and a few do much better than the rest. The few that are most functional after years of suffering, say that they refuse to let it get to them. They are different. They love their life, they are fighter's, and have a powerfully independent spirit. They are more quiet/restful at times, when I can tell they are at there weakest. Then, they find determination and they hold it. I can see resolve in their eyes. I have only known these people in the hospital, when they were sick enough to be there. They are peaceful but focused on their release from the moment they arrive. This is vague, but even amongst people who eat SAD and rely on medicine, there are still less horrible outcomes. You have great potential for complete recovery and maintenance.

[Aaaaaa]

Thank you so much for all of your kind and thoughtful words, Adora!
I think I've mentioned a little about my MS  here...basically I got diagnosed my freshman year of college (when I was under a lot of stress, and had recently gotten a meningitis vaccine, so who knows what the actual trigger was...) which was about 8 years ago.  My main symptoms are random numbness/tingling that comes and goes, constipation, brain fog and fatigue.  The brain fog and fatigue have been pretty much gone since starting a (cooked) paleo diet.  The constipation has been clearing up somewhat since I've started raw paleo, but is pretty on-and-off (still trying to figure this one out, and also intestinal gas seems to make it worse) and I recently had a little relapse of the tingling issue (in my feet) but its going away now after a few weeks of it.
I am just SO confused now, with all the different protocols out there for treating diseases like MS!  And nobody really seems to know what the cause(s) are!  For instance, I had been eating a lot of coconut oil per Bruce Fife's protocol for a ketogenic diet, but now per most people here say coconut oil isn't that good for you because of how its made.  And then there's Dr. Wahls saying to eat TONS of veggies of all kinds plus fruits etc, and Dr. Cordain saying all nightshades and dairy have substances that are very bad for people with MS, Aajonus says its because you can't properly digest cooked green and red veggies and they create toxic substances in your body, I've seen some articles saying raw dairy fats are great, and others saying dairy (altho the dairy being talked about is prbly pasturized crappy stuff) is a cause of MS, and now those articles on Paul Jaminet's site saying that there really is no proof that MS is an autoimmune disease at all....!!!
I tend to feel that a great deal of my healing has to be done in my gut, just because of recently realizing that I've probably had IBS and gut dysbiosis symptoms my whole life and just thought they were normal (like a lot of bloating after every meal, chronic constipation...). 
I am also taking low-dose naltrexone, which is supposed to up regulate your immune system.  It really seems to help a lot, but i don't want to be dependant on it, you know?  And i feel like if I'm trying to figure out what causes me symptoms and what is helping healing, they LDN might mask those symptoms...
*sigh*
I know it is important to keep a good outlook and not stress, but this is kind of stressing me out a little, because I just feel stuck and don't really know which direction to go.

[Adora]

Wow Sile, I feel that way most of the time too. I have lost feeling in my toes from diabetes lots of times,   Scary. When my BS was very high just recently my toes went numb. There is still less feeling on the tip of my big toe. My BS are in very good control again. Walking barefoot outside stimulates my nerves. Massaging my feet and pinching my toes, regularly, is also good, I talk to them and tell them how much I love them, with the massage, or cleaning.
     I have been reading "Becoming the Ice Man" and doing cold water immersions especially of my feet and hands. This helps to "train nerves and vessels". I use fat to keep my skin from getting dry and put them in cold water or snow until they are stiff, less is more, just a minute or 2. Stay very relaxed and breathe soft and deep through your nose. You maybe more sensitive, I am, so make sure you only keep cold for a very short time, then warm up slowly. Usually just removing the cold is all I do and let myself warm up. Also, find the part of your core that is warmest, belly, chest, pelvis and holds focus there as a meditation. I have found that after a couple of weeks of doing this I adapt faster, and I can feel blood and nerve supply rushing in.
     He has other practices they all seem to make me feel stronger. No cold practicing if you are tiered. You should be well rested first.   
     Rest in general is very important.
It sounds like your doing great. 8 years can be devastating with MS. I'm glad you want more, me too.

[Dorothy]

Sile, decades ago in Manhattan I saw this guy give a presentation for his new book - something like sick and tired of being sick and tired. He showed videos of normal cells becoming bacteria and viruses and bacteria and viruses morphing back and forth. Wild stuff. He was seriously persecuted as I remember - totally flew in the face of the belief system of modern medicine.

I'm not so sure how useful it is to figure out exactly what the physical base of the disease is as much as what has fixed it for others. I often think about how multifaceted our bodies are, how adaptive and how often something that seems totally unrelated can be so helpful.

You hired someone with a bunch of experience helping people and he put you on a plan - one that seems basically sound right? If you get on this new protocol and it works - it works! You can always figure out why once you figure out what works. If it doesn't work then you can start questioning aspects of the plan like dairy etc.

You seem to be doing extremely well. I think it's gotta be a little nerve wracking before starting up a new plan like you are - double guessing it. Personally, I think the biggest thing is that you found someone who is basically in-line with what you have come up with for yourself and who has helped others with your condition. You seem to be in good stead. The only thing that is missing is for you to relax into it and give it a full try. I'm extremely optimistic for you. I can't wait to hear all about the results.

[Aaaaaa]

Thank you Dorothy!
Yes, relaxing is something I need to work on.  I am typically pretty laid-back, attitude wise, but I am a very idealistc person.  I have a great imagination, and reality doesn't always measure up.  I am slowly learning that something *real* but imperfect is still millions of times better and more satisfying than any ideal vision I can dream up in my head.  :-) 
I also have a terrible habit of multi-tasking, which is unfortunetly necesarry (and actually praised!)  in my current job, but I try not to overload my senses so much when I'm at home. 
And like you said, if I find a plan that works for me, it really doesn't matter if I never figure out exactly what triggered my MS.  I'll make that more of a background research project; to be finished eventually but not a #1 priority to stress over.
After putting together everything I've heard from people like AV, and the "Fear of the Invisible" book (so far--bout 1/2 way through it), along with more mainstream science and the germ theory, it kind of seems that both are correct, in some ways.  I don't think bacteria, parasites and espeically viruses are exactly the "bad guys" that mainstream medicine makes them out to be, but then again they do appear to be contagious and harmful, in some instances at least (which could have to do with them having too much toxic tissue to clean up in modern sick humans, or also being mutated or created by our meddling in bio warfare etc. and unnatural lifestyles), but also the theory of detoxification makes sense in some situations.  Maybe we'll never know!  Maybe we're not supposed to?  Who knows LOL! :-P
Like you said, now its important for me to relax into my new plan, and get healing, and re-evaluate it if something doesn't seem to be going right (ex, dairy).  However, I seem to be doing really well with it so far (haha about a day into it)!  No obvious symptoms or anything that are common to dairy intolerance (ex, excess mucus, gas, GI upset etc) My body seems to love all the fat, and I feel much calmer and more grounded still.  And my tingly feet thing seems to be going away, and my gut seems to be working pretty well.  And I'm not hungry and snacking all the time like I was when I was eating sweet stuff!  I think at the very least, I need to cut out any sweet taste for a while, to get un-addicted. 

[Dorothy]

Very big smiles from me!   

Fine tuning can be relaxing - like doodling or something.

I'm the WORST at multi-tasking. I can meditate on one point for weeks but ask me to do more than one thing at a time and I fall apart. I can relate totally to what you say about having to multi-task at work. From my point of view it sounds like it would be a tremendous relief to get a break when at home.

Your position right now sounds wonderful to me. You have the plan, direct instructions that are not overwhelming and are do-able because you have already been doing most of it and it's already working. Way to go! Stopping such a powerful symptom so quickly is a very good sign. That means that your nervous system is already reacting positively, and with MS being a disease of the nervous system - having something like tingling letting up - WoW.

[Aaaaaa]

Hehe you are like my husband, Dorothy.  He has wonderful intense focus, on ONE thing only.  But if he tries to do too much, he gets really frazzled. 
Sometimes I envy you guys, even though it is almost a liability not to be able to multitask at most jobs today.  But since my eventual goal is to be self-employed and !!free!! I better start un-learning it, I think.  At least un-learning it as my default-- I know I'm just the kind of person who likes to move from one thing to another and another in kind of a spiral manner, and that probably wont' change, but I do need to start calming my mind.  And I find myself "not really here" a lot, when I'm doing one thing and thinking about another...which makes me miss a lot of the little details that make everyday life enjoyable. 
So thanks for mentioning that!  And also for the encouraging words about my new plan! <3 <3

[Dorothy]

Once upon a time, a long, long time ago, poor silly Dorothy tried to waitress. Who wanted that fork, what was I doing, what, no, yes, I mean, let me finish this and then I can do that, but they want to leave, but that one hasn't ordered. Dorothy runs away never to return to that frightful place.

I'm a real bigger tipper. 

[Aaaaaa]

hehe that made me laugh!  I was a waitress for a little while at a country club...until they randomly relegated me to being a tennis coach LOL!  Needless to say, I was not a very good waitress either... ;-)

[Rawr]

What do you guys think about this info saying that MS and other autoimmune diseases are caused by bacteria and viruses?

I think it's medical BS propaganda as always and I will not even read it after you've said "caused by bacteria and viruses".

As Aajonus said in one interview:
Anything the medical profession says, do the opposite 99 percent of the time and you'll be right.


Regarding "MS"/numbness/tingling/"brain fog"/chronic fatigue - and many other mental/emotional/neurological symptoms... mercury.

Mercury in the brain/CNS.

Usually combined with nutritional deficiency, stress, and sometimes other metal toxin. But I doubt there are many (if any) cases where mercury is not the main cause.

[sabertooth]

My hair analysis showed I was off the chart in aluminum, as well as high in cadmium, nickel, manganese.  I was also deficient in magnesium, zinc, selenium and many of the trace minerals.

I believe that occupational poisoning was at the heart of my autoimmune issues, and yet I couldn't even get a single doctor to consider the plausibility that environmental toxicity may be a root cause of these conditions.

[Rawr]

My hair analysis showed I was off the chart in aluminum, as well as high in cadmium, nickel, manganese.  I was also deficient in magnesium, zinc, selenium and many of the trace minerals.

I believe that occupational poisoning was at the heart of my autoimmune issues, and yet I couldn't even get a single doctor to consider the plausibility that environmental toxicity may be a root cause of these conditions.

Of course. They have been in-DOCTRi-nated very well.


However I want to point out one thing about hair analysis:

- the fact that something does show up high does indeed mean that you've been/are being contaminated by that crap, HOWEVER
- if some toxic element doesn't show up high, it still doesn't guarantee that you're not poisoned by that - often it is the case of your body not being able to get rid of that toxin through your hair.


An example:

Autistic children usually have less mercury measured in their hair analysis than non-autistic children - while usually having the same amount injected into them through the vaccines*. In other words, the children unable to excrete the mercury out of the body tend to become autistic.


* Of course, vaccines are not the only big source of mercury poisoning of babies/children. Falsely marketed "silver" amalgam fillings (that are more than 50% not silver but mercury) in the mother are another big contributor. However, this mother-to-child poisoning usually happens slowly and gradually during the whole pregnancy time, and not at once and in conjuction with tens of other harmful toxic chemicals injected in the vaccination proccess. So the child - I mean, baby/embryo - has more time to move the mercury carefully into the less critical parts of the body than it's brain and CNS.

[cherimoya_kid]

Quit spreading the vaccine nonsense.  Vaccines can occasionally sicken and kill people, but they are not causing autism. Mercury poisoning symptoms do not include autism. I dare you to link me to a study that can show higher rates of autism in cases of high mercury exposure.  AFAIK, the largest-scale mercury poisoning event was the Minamata Bay situation in Japan, and there were no more cases of autism than usual there.

Everyone realizes that the actual amount of mercury in vaccines is tiny compared to what's found in seafood and the environment in general, right?  Check the numbers on that, if you like.

[TylerDurden]

Exactly. The whole mercury-autism connection has been debunked convincingly by now.

[Rawr]

Not really?

Mercury, Dental Amalgam, Thimerosal & Disease | Dr Boyd Haley (2003)

Mercury, Dental Amalgam, Thimerosal & Disease | Dr Boyd Haley (2003) *SEE DESCRIPTION

Anyway, I won't bother more to "convince" you. I'll just keep this here for anyone interested.
There are more (much more) resources available electronically, but this is enough for a start. Have a nice day so far.

[cherimoya_kid]

We were talking about vaccines, not fillings. I've not done my research on fillings. I doubt they're quite as awful as some people say they are, but I'm sure there is a subset of the population who probably would be better off without them.

[sabertooth]

I never was fully convinced that mercury is a primary factor for auto immune reactions from vaccines.

 What is known is that mercury is an adjuvant that can trigger immune hyperactivity when combine with other antigenic elements that are routinely used in vaccines. Also for infants the blood brain barrier isn't developed so sometimes the adverse immune reaction occurs in the brain causing permanent damage, with little evidence left to prove the actual cause.

Vaccines routinely cause auto immune reactions, its just that they often go undiagnosed.

My brother was 6 week old when he received the MMR shot and within days he developed a life threatening condition ITP. Its where the immune system attacked its own platelets.

My wife was given a rubella shot in the hospital after our first child was born, within two days she had a rash on the side of her face and her cheeks were swollen. The she then began to suffer for months from joint pain she had never had before.

I suggest people study the link between rubella vaccines in women and arthritis .

[Alive]

In some states in the US it is legal to use this raw CBD (Cannabidiol) treatment for auto-immune disorders - this youtube video is amazing on the failure of modern medicine vs the CBD alternative:

LEAF [ The Health Benefits of Juicing Raw Cannabis ]

Also this is may help: "Dr. Terry Wahls learned how to properly fuel her body. Using the lessons she learned at the subcellular level, she used diet to cure her MS and get out of her wheelchair."

TEDxIowaCity - Dr. Terry Wahls - Minding Your Mitochondria

[Dorothy]

CBD as juice which is non-psycho-active. I'd love to live in a sane world where I could  buy that at the grocers along with raw grassfed milk!

What a strange world we live in that people aren't legally allowed to grow a plant. Did you know that in Canada you're not allowed to drink the milk from your OWN COW raw!

I sure hope it doesn't get worse and the government doesn't come over and arrests us for having wild echinacea plants seeded from the wind in our yard one day. One day grapes might be illegal to grow because they cure cancer.

Sigh.

[jessica]

the government owns the patent on cannabanoids as antioxidants....how the fuck can you own molecular structure? do they not realize how ridiculous that is? plus 934028309 other retorical questions.

  this is why we are so small and not expansive into the universe of our own possibilities as a culture and society......i t

[Dorothy]

Yeah Jessica! and Monsanto can patent seeds that have been on the planet for millennia - huh?

[Adora]

Does anybody on the site live in California that is juicing or eating raw cannabis and could report the effects? Or on a country where it is legal to grow for health?
....Just ranting     
In NY I would go to jail for a year for growing this plant for my health, but people can walk around with an oz in their pocket and just pay a fine. I can only buy 10 needles at a time (without a prescription, but at times I have been without insurance to pay for doctor's prescriptions) to give myself shots, but a drug addict gets free needles so they do get sick from shooting heroin

[Dorothy]

Rant received and totally respected.