Total proof that USA is a lapdog of Israel

[PaleoPhil]

I'm pretty disapointed by anti-sematic behavior.

It's the same principle with religions that practice Christianity. They say Jews did it. Jews this, jews that.

Yeah, it's so easy to blame things on some convenient scapegoat that's too small a minority to fight back. Ever notice how people rarely conspiracy theories blaming the most powerful peoples like the Protestant Aryans? Because those people have the power to fight back. Not that I have anything against Protestant Aryans, it's just that most folks have the sense not to fuck with them other than to tease them or whine about them a little, but not create elaborate conspiracy theories about them.

The interesting thing is my Jewish friends here in the U.S. have actually adopted Athiesm.

Yes, some of mine have as well, and the ones who are still religious are not anti-American or pro war at all. Very peaceful people. The complete opposite of what has been portrayed here. Same goes for my Muslim friends. The sad thing is that the Republican party seems hell bent on making war on the Persian people who love Americans and are just not happy with the stupid foreign policy of our government.

It's a common belief in the States that America dropped the twin towers to steal gas from those nations.

Well you lose me there. I generally despise conspiracy theories. Conspiracy theories are the unthinking approach to nearly everything. Instead of using their brains, so many people just latch onto whatever the latest popular conspiracy theory on the Internet is. It's a lazy-man's approach.

It's all a show they put on so Americans can stay patriotic while continuing to buy into their war machine.

It's rather reminiscent of the Roman Empire in its declining days. Rising budget deficits and stagnating economy, with military adventures attempted to increase government popularity and try to get war booty, ending in eventual failure.

More or less, it's why most Americans are pro Ron Paul.

If only that were the case. Unfortunately, he's a voice crying in the Wilderness, largely ignored.

Except the ones watching the media on TV lie about who's winning and who's losing.

Most Americans watch TV, unfortunately. I rarely do.

If you actually youtube Ron Paul, he actually called exactly what would happen. He's been completely accurate.

Yeah, that's why it's so puzzling why the establishment thinks they can get away with calling him crazy. Unfortunately, it seems to be the case when any prophet makes accurate predictions that the powers that be call him crazy and do the opposite of what he recommends.

Currently everyone in the military is voting Ron Paul (according to what I've been told).

Many are, yeah, because they're fed up with having to do 3 or 4 or more tours of duty in lands where they people don't fucking want them there. It's insane.

I think most of America has realized that yeah....

How I wish that were true.

They were right to leave Great Britain and enforce the constituion. But they're wrong to build horrible systems -

Like food industry - medical system.
Banking - government

Amen to that. Perhaps the greatest contribution of Christianity and Islam was to declare all debt evil.  It was a historical catastrophe when the Christian world abandoned its opposition to usury and instead embraced it.

"Despite its Judaic roots, the critique of usury was most ferverently taken up as a cause by the institutions of the Christian Church where the debate prevailed with great intensity for well over a thousand years" http://www.alastairmcintosh.com/articles/1998_usury.htm

[svrn]

Why stop there? I support cutting off most foreign aid and military interventions, regardless of who the peoples are descended from or where they originated.
I do think our government should more vocally express support for Palestinian self determination. Some would call that choosing sides.
So then do you agree with the majority of the scientists who think that the Ashkenazi Jews are likely not of mostly Khazar ancestry?
And a book author just making claims cannot? Besides, what's to stop the proponents of the Khazar claims from doing their own DNA tests, including you? It's not that expensive. I did one myself. Have you done one? If you find you have a Turkish haplogroup and no Jewish haplogroup, that would lend some support to the Khazar hypothesis, at least in your case. I would trust you to be honest about your answer.
Wonderful! Please share the study with us.
Neato! Thanks!

Ah, crumb. That site you linked to reports that there are just "traces"  of Khazar ancestry among Ashkenazi Jews (http://www.khazaria.com/genetics/abstracts.html), and it reports this:They also report that the Khazars may have contributed some of the R1a1 haplogroup and the CCR5-D32 allele to Ashkenazim.

Yes we should cut of all military aid to everywhere.

Perhhaps our government should express support for palestine but it doesnt realy matter. If we stop sending Israel money and stop backing them up whenever they ask then theres no way they will survive for long.

The original khazars are mostly mixed with the natives of wherever they went after defeat by svyatoslav. I believe that most of their DNA is from wherever they went after. It has been shown however that even though they are extremely mixed, ashkenazi jews have a genetic marker showing a common heritage in central asia, not the middle east.

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/09/27/science/27GENE.html

over 50 percent have this central asian marker according to this study which i found through the khazaria website. You should look on it more as there is varying info.

Studies such as this combined with my knowldge of history and politics come together to lead my to my conclusions about the khazars. It is never just one thing.

[svrn]

also the term anti semite makes no sense since the ashkenazi jews arent semites. You can tell just by looking t them that it is a european and not a semite.

[TylerDurden]

More less, Jews are actually peaceful people.

It is reasonable to be against sweeping negative statements such as "All Jews are as bad as the Zionists". It is also reasonable to condemn positive sweeping statements that  make one type of ethnic group seem above any and all reproach, like you did here. As for Jews being a naturally "peaceful" people, I have read the Bible, and the Old Testament is all about Jews happily committing genocide because it was  considered "God's Law", such as in the Canaanite genocide, or even massacring their own people such as the Ephraim(re "shibboleth"). I have read many other mythologies, religious-based or otherwise, and they all had elements of evil in them, but the Old Testament was the worst example thereof. Now, one can argue as to whether the Bible is historical, semi-historical or just a mythical representation of genuine Jewish beliefs, but, in the real world, we have individuals like the German Jew Fritz Haber who invented poison-gas(his wife committed suicide as a result), then there was Edward Teller, the inspiration for "Dr Strangelove", not to mention Beria/Trotsky/Ilya Ehrenburg/Kaganovich/Lenin, among many others, all of which, barring Teller, committed or incited mass-murder and were anything but peaceful. If we look at entities rather than individuals, then one only has to look at the 6 or so wars started by Israel since its independence(depends on what one terms a war, as wikipedia also classifies some other minor conflicts as "wars" which I disagree with re its conclusion). And my occasional forays on other forums have led to me encountering some rather dodgy, bigoted attacks on Islam and Arabs in general by American Jewish citizens, which were, interestingly, reminiscent of similiar behaviour by Nazis in pre-war Germany, so "atheism" is likely not on the rise  in that community, indeed in Israel, at least, it's the religious(Orthodox) who are having the most children. If you want to  depict Jews as being a peaceful people, rather than focusing solely on America and Israel, you would have a better position in your favour by  citing such famous pacifistic Jews as Bruno Kreisky, Baruch Spinoza, Jesus(if you don't believe his parents were goys as Zionists do) and Noam Chomsky to name a few. All these people were anti-Zionists, incidentally.

Any way, much love to everyone world wide. Keep spreading the word about how we eat so we can end the chaos through proper nutrition. I'm sure the problem with humans is dietary, there's no question.

  Proper nutrition has little or no basis in changing peoples' viewpoints. I wish it could be possible for a raw, palaeolithic diet to make people vote for increasing funds for spaceflight or for not starting endless foreign wars, but it's a pipe-dream.

[TylerDurden]

Yeah, it's so easy to blame things on some convenient scapegoat that's too small a minority to fight back. Ever notice how people rarely conspiracy theories blaming the most powerful peoples like the Protestant Aryans? Because those people have the power to fight back. Not that I have anything against Protestant Aryans, it's just that most folks have the sense not to fuck with them other than to tease them or whine about them a little, but not create elaborate conspiracy theories about them.

This is the biggest, most embarassing load of b*ll I have ever heard of. If you look at Scheuer's example and that of many others, criticising Israel is very dangerous to one's career. Scheuer got banned from a job at a prestigious organisation(the Jamestown Foundation) because of his anti-Zionist views. And then there was the vehement attack on Meersheimer's paper, thus proving its very own premise:-

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Israel_Lobby_and_U.S._Foreign_Policy#Reaction_to_the_reception

Amen to that.

The American War of Independence was a disaster, started for cynical reasons by corrupt politicians and the like, and had nothing to do with freedom or self-determination, judging from one book I once read by a realistic American citizen. You would all have been in a better position within the British Empire, a wonderful institution. Canada would also have been 100% free from the threat of a  US invasion,(same with Cuba/Phillipines later on). You would also have been spared the American Civil War as a result. *This is an admittedly biased viewpoint from a British citizen, but has a point*.

[svrn]

I agree with everything except that America would have been better off without independence. The brief period of freedom we enjoyed here after that is the reason why we became the richest most powerful nation on earth.

[PaleoPhil]

This is the biggest, most embarassing load of b*ll I have ever heard of. If you look at Scheuer's example...

That's not a conspiracy theory about all Protestant Aryans/Europeans, which is what I meant, like "the Jews were behind 911" or the blood libel (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blood_libel). Do you have examples of that where someone says "the Protestants were behind 911," or "Protestants murder children to get their blood" or some such, not just one individual victim?

Anti-Jewish/Ashkenazi conspiracy theories predate the state of Israel. For example, because of the blood libel conspiracy, all Jews were reportedly expelled from England in 1290 by the King of your beloved British Empire and not allowed to return until 1656. (http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/judaism/history/350.shtml). So focusing only on the current ascendant state of Israel and the power that its Christian Neocon and Evangelical American backers give it ignores the fact that the roots of the anti-Jewish conspiracy theories go back to times when Jews (meaning people described by themselves and/or by their detractors as "Jews", which is what I mean whenever I use the term) did not even have a state and the USA did not yet exist.

There are some anti-Catholic conspiracy theories (http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Anti-Catholicism), but they tend to become a factor only in nations or regions where Catholics are at a disadvantage in either numbers or power, as with the Jews. The closest thing I've seen to a conspiracy theory against Protestants is the anti-Masonry conspiracy theories. However, in that case it's only a tiny, largely elite minority of Protestants that is targeted, again as with the Jews, and some conspiracy theorists have even claimed that Jews were behind Free Masonry ( http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/The_Evil_Jew_(antisemitic_stereotypes) ). I don't recall seeing a popular conspiracy theory which involved all or most Protestants in a nation in which Protestants were a large, powerful element, such as the USA or Great Britain since Queen Elizabeth. Do you?

the British Empire, a wonderful institution.

If empire is OK, then you should have no quarrel with the Israelis on at least their imperial domination of the Palestinians, nor with the current American military-economic empire. How do you square your pro-imperial feelings with support for Ron Paul, the most anti-imperial of all the candidates for US President?

It was your British Empire which gave a baronetcy to the Rothschilds, what think you of that? I'm also curious what you think of Cromwell, who deposed the monarchy and let Jews back into England?

Besides, whining on and on about the Jews and their supposed enormous power, or in the case of some here and elsewhere, arguing that they are descended from Khazars, gets the Palestinians no closer to self determination and does little to end the current policy of endless war of both parties in US politics. If anything, this stuff turns rational people off and is used by the Neocons to portray all supporters of Ron Paul and critics of US foreign policy as "anti-semitic" and irrational. In other words, you and others making these sorts of arguments are unintentionally playing right into their hands. Sometimes the best of intentions can lead to disastrous consequences.

One of the ironies about the conspiracy theories that claim that "the Jews" have enormous, sometimes even supernatural, power, is that it means that fighting them is pretty much futile, leaving one to wonder why the proponents even bother to waste their time debating about it. Even Ahmadinejad does not think that the Zionists have the power that the conspiracy theorists claim:
Ahmadinejad says Israel will not dare attack Iran(If anything, he goes too far in the other direction of underestimating the power of a US-backed Israeli government.)

I agree with everything except that America would have been better off without independence. The brief period of freedom we enjoyed here after that is the reason why we became the richest most powerful nation on earth.

Good point. I also do not wish for the USA to be brought back under a British yoke. I'd like us to keep our independence and self determination and I'd like to see the Palestinians get theirs, not be kept under an Israeli yoke or put back under a British one.

[TylerDurden]

That's not a conspiracy theory about all Protestant Aryans/Europeans, which is what I meant, like "the Jews were behind 911" or the blood libel (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blood_libel). Do you have examples of that where someone says "the Protestants were behind 911," or "Protestants murder children to get their blood" or some such, not just one individual victim?

  The reason why there are no current anti-Protestant conspiracy theories in the US is simply that no one would remotely believe them. For example, the Jews are the wealthiest ethnic group in the US, also forming a bit less than half of the richest of all Americans, despite their  being less numerous than WASPs.

Re the past anti-Jewish conspiracy theories:- The reason for them was the Jewish practice of usury/moneylending, a practice which Jesus, to his credit, despised.

I don't recall seeing a popular conspiracy theory which involved all or most Protestants in a nation in which Protestants were a large, powerful element, such as the USA or Great Britain since Queen Elizabeth. Do you?

There have been plenty, such as found in the Counter-Reformation, and the Portadown Massacre, re the fake "papal conspiracy" and  http://www.moyak.com/papers/popish-plot-england.html . Please read up on your history, in future.

If empire is OK, then you should have no quarrel with the Israelis on at least their imperial domination of the Palestinians, nor with the current American military-economic empire. How do you square your pro-imperial feelings with support for Ron Paul, the most anti-imperial of all the candidates for US President?

Easily. The British Empire had a rather better record re human rights etc. than the American or Israeli imperialists have ever achieved, on an overall basis.  Besides, it's also a question of my  cultural/genetic inheritance. I have no problem with a Celtic or British/English or Austrian/Czech/Slovenian empire, I just am not fond of empires from other regions.

It was your British Empire which gave a baronetcy to the Rothschilds, what think you of that? I'm also curious what you think of Cromwell, who deposed the monarchy and let Jews back into England?

Giving a baronetcy to someone does not, per se, mean that that contributed to the latter doing any form of future wrongdoing(perhaps the baronetcy was awarded in return for political donations?). Very interesting way they got rich at the start(I believe the first generation of brothers set up in various European financial centres and had a very efficient communications network which helped keep them abreast of economic developments) - trouble is that they wanted to stay wealthy as a family which meant a lot of inbreeding(cousin/cousin marriages, not at all healthy).

Hmm, Cromwell, a bizarre extremist Puritan  was an anti-monarchist, though a competent soldier. The Puritans under his rule were a bunch of quasi-Islamic extremists, treating women like dirt etc.:-

"One of the main beliefs of the Puritans was that if you worked hard, you would get to Heaven. Pointless enjoyment was frowned upon. Cromwell shut many inns and the theatres were all closed down. Most sports were banned. Boys caught playing football on a Sunday could be whipped as a punishment. Swearing was punished by a fine, though those who kept swearing could be sent to prison." and "Cromwell believed that women and girls should dress in a proper manner. Make-up was banned. Puritan leaders and soldiers would roam the streets of towns and scrub off any make-up found on unsuspecting women. Too colourful dresses were banned. A Puritan lady wore a long black dress that covered her almost from neck to toes. She wore a white apron and her hair was bunched up behind a white head-dress. Puritan men wore black clothes and short hair."
http://www.historylearningsite.co.uk/cromwell_england.htm

My own grudge against Oliver Cromwell was always that he had a rabid hatred for Irish Catholics. Since my ancestors were the Irish "Wild Geese" who were persecuted during Cromwell's time and who were later exiled, I, understandably,  have a rather dim view of him. Other than that, I concede he was a brilliant soldier. I was amazed to think that  anyone could possibly be in favour of Oliver Cromwell, given his dire record(as seen above), but I should have remembered that the US was first colonised by Puritans in the MayFlower  . Christ, why oh why, didn't we just execute those sickos, at the time, instead of just  exiling them!  Who knows, such actions might have prevented the dominance of the Religious Right in the US in modern times?

Besides, whining on and on about the Jews and their supposed enormous power, or in the case of some here and elsewhere, arguing that they are descended from Khazars, gets the Palestinians no closer to self determination and does little to end the current policy of endless war of both parties in US politics.

I never once believed in this "Khazar" nonsense. It's enough for me to see that there is current DNA evidence to counter the Khazar claim, among other reasons.

[PaleoPhil]

  The reason why there are no current anti-Protestant conspiracy theories in the US is simply that no one would remotely believe them. For example, the Jews are the wealthiest ethnic group in the US, also forming a bit less than half of the richest of all Americans, despite their  being less numerous than WASPs.

But when you add up the wealth of the far more numerous WASPs, wouldn't it surpass the combined wealth of the Jews, and if you don't artificially restrict Protestants to Anglo Saxons, wouldn't the disparity tilt still farther towards Protestants, and if you add in the other Christians, wouldn't it become enormous? And again, if Zionist Jews controlled as much of the wealth and power as you seem to believe, wouldn't it be futile to oppose them, though it might be ethical? I can sympathize with someone fighting what they see as an ethical lost cause, I just wish conspiracy theories and anger at whole groups of people (including many innocent ordinary folk who know little of banking or foreign policy intrigue) weren't intertwined in it.

Re the past anti-Jewish conspiracy theories:- The reason for them was the Jewish practice of usury/moneylending , a practice which Jesus, to his credit, despised.

That was part of it and it was an ironic result of the policies of Christian Medieval governments, as finance was one of the few prosperous careers that was left open to Jews during the Middle Ages, given the prohibition on Christians (it should have been a prohibition on everyone, in my view). We can despise usury without hating all Jews, especially since Christians have since abandoned the prohibition against usury and many have embraced usury (regrettably).

Jesus (Yeshua) also supposedly said, per the Bible:

"first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye."

Christian and secular British and American condemnation of Jews re: usury would have more cogency if Christianity and the UK and US had again prohibited, or were working to prohibit, usury.

There have been plenty, such as found in the Counter-Reformation, and the Portadown Massacre, re the fake "papal conspiracy"

Again, the papal conspiracies tended to thrive in nations and regions where Protestants had the upper hand, thus serving as examples that support what I've been talking about. The Counter-Reformation and the Portadown Massacre weren't conspiracy theories. There just aren't many good examples that match the character of the anti-Jewish conspiracy theories. The Freemason example comes much closer than those you gave, and even it involves just a small portion of Protestantism, rather than all of Protestantism or Christianity in the way that Jews are often all thrown together as the target of anger and implicated in the conspiracy theories.

I have no problem with a Celtic or British/English or Austrian/Czech/Slovenian empire

I suspect you would if they conquered your country. Few people mind when their own country conquers and rules others, its when the reverse happens that they tend to be not so keen on empire.

Giving a baronetcy to someone does not, per se, mean that that contributed to the latter doing any form of future wrongdoing

Still, you don't think they should have given a baronetcy to the Rothschilds, do you, given your views? After all, the Rothschilds are largely regarded amongst the anti-Jewish conspiracy theorists as the worst of the worst.

My own grudge against Oliver Cromwell was always that he had a rabid hatred for Irish Catholics. Since my ancestors were the Irish "Wild Geese" who were persecuted during Cromwell's time and who were later exiled, I, understandably,  have a rather dim view of him. Other than that, I concede he was a brilliant soldier.

I had a feeling we'd agree on Cromwell. I was brought up to see him as a villain and still also have a dim view of him, but after reading historical accounts, it does look to me that he was a brilliant military strategist.

I was amazed to think that  anyone could possibly be in favour of Oliver Cromwell, given his dire record(as seen above), but I should have remembered that the US was first colonised by Puritans in the MayFlower  .

Interesting. I didn't realize that there was a significant pro-Cromwell element in the US. Who are they? I know that the rabidly pro-Cromwell Ian Paisley recently came to the USA, but I doubt that most Americans even know who Cromwell was.

I never once believed in this "Khazar" nonsense. It's enough for me to see that there is current DNA evidence to counter the Khazar claim, among other reasons.

You deserve credit for giving the DNA evidence more credence than the conspiracy theories on that. I didn't mean to implicate you in that. I was expressing a broader point about how this thread and the conspiracy theories in general have been largely counterproductive to the aims of the proponents, which is why I took care to state "in the case of some here and elsewhere," but thanks for clearly stating your view on that. I would nuance it a bit myself to say that there is some evidence for some possible Khazar ancestry among Ashkenazis, but much less than what the conspiracy theorists claim. This matches the historical record, which says that just a small elite of Khazars converted to Judaism, not all people in the Khazar empire, nor even all ethnic Turks in the Khazar empire. Of course, I'm open to whatever future DNA evidence may show and actually would find it pretty neat if it turned out that there was more of a Khazar component in Ashkenazi DNA.

[personman]

As to the validity of "The Jewish Conspiracy" I have heard that many contend the "jews" are simply a foil or straw man created to be burned by Freemasons. Who can ever know what "the turth" is.....?

[TylerDurden]

But when you add up the wealth of the far more numerous WASPs, wouldn't it surpass the combined wealth of the Jews, and if you don't artificially restrict Protestants to Anglo Saxons, wouldn't the disparity tilt still farther towards Protestants, and if you add in the other Christians, wouldn't it become enormous? And again, if Zionist Jews controlled as much of the wealth and power as you seem to believe, wouldn't it be futile to oppose them, though it might be ethical? I can sympathize with someone fighting what they see as an ethical lost cause, I just wish conspiracy theories and anger at whole groups of people (including many innocent ordinary folk who know little of banking or foreign policy intrigue) weren't intertwined in it.

  This is pure b*ll again. First of all, Christians are not a monolithic bunch. Secondly, one doesn't need to control all the wealth in order to have political control. Look at the Alawite community in Syria which has agreements with many rich Sunni businessmen, but which, ultimately, is at the top of Syrian society.

That was part of it and it was an ironic result of the policies of Christian Medieval governments, as finance was one of the few prosperous careers that was left open to Jews during the Middle Ages, given the prohibition on Christians (it should have been a prohibition on everyone, in my view). We can despise usury without hating all Jews, especially since Christians have since abandoned the prohibition against usury and many have embraced usury (regrettably).

Given all the pogroms, it does look as though it wasn't so much usury that was practised, but loan-sharking. Understandable, I suppose, since there was no competition.

Again, the papal conspiracies tended to thrive in nations and regions where Protestants had the upper hand, thus serving as examples that support what I've been talking about. The Counter-Reformation and the Portadown Massacre weren't conspiracy theories. There just aren't many good examples that match the character of the anti-Jewish conspiracy theories. The Freemason example comes much closer than those you gave, and even it involves just a small portion of Protestantism, rather than all of Protestantism or Christianity in the way that Jews are often all thrown together as the target of anger and implicated in the conspiracy theories.

Pure attempt at diversion again on your part. I'm sorry I fell into it. Actually, there have been a lot of conspiracy theories about  Catholics in the past, and even  various Christian sects had all sorts of stuff written about them which may have been dodgy(or not). As far as conspiracy theories go, some are correct, some are partially correct, some are not at all, it all depends on the evidence provided over the years. Only a very blind fool could ever state that all conspiracy theories were false. As regards  excessive Israeli influence in the US, that is not a conspiracy theory, anyway, but a fact, since there are already plenty of official reports with solid data behind them on the subject, such as this one in the mainstream media:-
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Israel_Lobby_and_U.S._Foreign_Policy

I suspect you would if they conquered your country. Few people mind when their own country conquers and rules others, its when the reverse happens that they tend to be not so keen on empire.

No, I'm descended from people in those countries. It wouldn't be an issue.

Still, you don't think they should have given a baronetcy to the Rothschilds, do you, given your views? After all, the Rothschilds are largely regarded amongst the anti-Jewish conspiracy theorists as the worst of the worst.

All noble titles are first given due to money being handed over or political favours being given in the past, so nobody should be a noble. I dislike the whole concept. I prefer a flexible aristocracy based on Christopher Anvil's short story "Philosopher's Stone":-

http://up-ship.com/blog/?p=8496

[PaleoPhil]

If we stop sending Israel money and stop backing them up whenever they ask then theres no way they will survive for long.

That is not a selling point to me. I support Palestinian self determination but I do not wish for the Israeli people to be destroyed and I hope you don't either.

The original khazars are mostly mixed with the natives of wherever they went after defeat by svyatoslav. I believe that most of their DNA is from wherever they went after. It has been shown however that even though they are extremely mixed, ashkenazi jews have a genetic marker showing a common heritage in central asia, not the middle east.

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/09/27/science/27GENE.html

over 50 percent have this central asian marker according to this study which i found through the khazaria website.

The 50+ percent was regarding Levites only. Even that 2003 Hammer et al study conceded that, "neither the NRY haplogroup composition of the majority of Ashkenazi Jews nor the microsatellite haplotype composition of the R1a1 haplogroup within Ashkenazi Levites is consistent with a major Khazar or other European origin" (http://www.familytreedna.com/pdf/400971.pdf) and the remaining hope for Khazar ancestry was "one cannot rule out the important contribution of a single or a few founders among contemporary Ashkenazi Levites," with one of the Ashkenazi haplogroups, R1a1, being speculated upon as possibly coming from a Khazar ancestor(s). Plus, even these study authors did not dispute the evidence finding Ashkenazi and Sephardic Cohanim and Israelites to share a genetic signature originating in the Middle East ~ 2000 years ago. They instead only speculated that the descendants of Levites might have some Khazar ancestry.

Also, doesn't it give you any pause that even the authors of the Khazaria website you point to as evidence expressed a different conclusion than what you have been expressing, which I shared in this earlier post: http://www.rawpaleodietforum.com/off-topic/total-proof-that-usa-is-a-lapdog-of-israel/msg88420/#msg88420 ?

Besides, if a Khazar link of any size is eventually confirmed it won't change the minds of Zionists in the slightest (see http://www.zionism-israel.com/zionism_issues.htm), and I doubt that it would change most Palestinians' minds about anything. So it's more of a question of interest for Turkish and Jewish history than of political relevance.

If the Jews were mainly Khazars, one nice side effect would be that it would make reported statements by Hitler about the Jews as a single degenerate Semitic race of people who had murdered a Roman Jesus even more ridiculous, which may be why David Duke has argued vehemently against the Khazar claims.

Here's an interesting recent liberal Jewish counterpoint to the militant wing of Jewish and Israeli politics:

"No First Strike Against Iran" Says NYT Ad
Rabbi Michael Lerner: Obama is wrong to reject a policy of containment
March 14, 2012
http://therealnews.com/t2/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=31&Itemid=74&jumival=8083

... "No, Mr. Netanyahu, No, President Obama: NO war in Iran and NO first strike!"

Actually, there have been a lot of conspiracy theories about  Catholics in the past,

Of course, and I was the first to point out the anti-Catholic conspiracies, and you apparently missed my point that they support what I've been saying:

There are some anti-Catholic conspiracy theories (http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Anti-Catholicism), but they tend to become a factor only in nations or regions where Catholics are at a disadvantage in either numbers or power, as with the Jews.

Again, the papal conspiracies tended to thrive in nations and regions where Protestants had the upper hand, thus serving as examples that support what I've been talking about.

Only a very blind fool could ever state that all conspiracy theories were false.

Which I never did. This is the umpteenth straw man you've created.

All noble titles are first given due to money being handed over or political favours being given in the past, so nobody should be a noble. I dislike the whole concept. I prefer a flexible aristocracy based on Christopher Anvil's short story "Philosopher's Stone":-

http://up-ship.com/blog/?p=8496

So then that's apparently one aspect of the British Empire you don't care for?

[TylerDurden]

I support a meritocracy, which has never existed even now. As regards anti-Jewish/anti-Zionist conspiracies, I assure you that they exist aplenty in areas with Jews in a majority, such as Israel, which, after all, also includes many Israeli Arabs and the Palestinians in the West Bank. So your argument falls apart.

[TylerDurden]

That is not a selling point to me. I support Palestinian self determination but I do not wish for the Israeli people to be destroyed and I hope you don't either.

He didn't mean that they would be destroyed, just that they would have to be a State that combined the Palestinians with the Israelis  as equal citizens. It's like when Ahmadinejad stated that the Israeli "regime" would be destroyed, not all the citizens per se.

[personman]

What about freemasonry?

[PaleoPhil]

As regards anti-Jewish/anti-Zionist conspiracies, I assure you that they exist aplenty in areas with Jews in a majority

Good grief, I didn't say they don't exist, I said they aren't much of a factor. I don't see any pogroms against Jews in Israel, for example, and I don't sense that such theories are popular there with the Jewish majority. It tends to be those who are weaker that the pogroms are carried out against and it's much easier to make conspiracy theories popular when they target a hated minority, even an elite minority, than a major part of the population, and it's much easier to act effectively on the theories when the target isn't more powerful (so, for example, it would have been difficult to accomplish anything with a conspiracy theory about a white apartheid government during the early days of apartheid, because they had most of the power, though it's possible there could have been some conspiracy theories about them).

He didn't mean that they would be destroyed, just that they would have to be a State that combined the Palestinians with the Israelis  as equal citizens. It's like when Ahmadinejad stated that the Israeli "regime" would be destroyed, not all the citizens per se.

That's good, I could condone something like that, or perhaps a two-state solution, or whatever peaceful solution they could work out.

What about freemasonry?

Yeah, I mentioned that's the closest example to a conspiracy theory about all Protestants I could come up with, but it doesn't quite match, because it's only about a small elite minority of them, whereas the conspiracy theories about Jews, such as the blood libel, often smear them all. It does match the case when people only claim that a small elite of Jews are actually behind the conspiracy. So conspiracy theories about powerful militant Zionists as a small elite not representative of all Jews or all Ashkenazim would match.

[TylerDurden]

Good grief, I didn't say they don't exist, I said they aren't much of a factor. I don't see any pogroms against Jews in Israel, for example, and I don't sense that such theories are popular there with the Jewish majority. It tends to be those who are weaker that the pogroms are carried out against and it's much easier to make conspiracy theories popular when they target a hated minority, even an elite minority, than a major part of the population, and it's much easier to act effectively on the theories when the target isn't more powerful (so, for example, it would have been difficult to accomplish anything with a conspiracy theory about a white apartheid government during the early days of apartheid, because they had most of the power, though it's possible there could have been some conspiracy theories about them).

I am truly amazed at your lack of integrity and village-idiot-liberalism - you are no genuine Libertarian.  The simple fact that many anti-Jewish conspiracy theories exist in Israel and the West Bank proves my point. And, further to my point, there are indeed many pogroms/ethnic cleanses by Israeli Jews (a majority) against Arab-Palestinian settlers in the West Bank, not to mention more subtle  so-called "legal" successes aimed at depriving the Israeli Arabs within Israel proper from having any real rights. I have to admit you are a total scumbag in that you have no real morality whatsoever.

[PaleoPhil]

I am truly amazed at your lack of integrity and village-idiot-liberalism - you are no genuine Libertarian.

For the last time, I never claimed to be a Libertarian, I said I was libertarian-leaning, just as you said you're not a libertarian but are sympathetic to Ron Paul. Why is that so hard for you of all people to understand?

The simple fact that many anti-Jewish conspiracy theories exist in Israel and the West Bank proves my point.

Again, I never said they don't exist, apparently you refuse to even acknowledge the point I was trying to make and instead prefer to rant on against the imaginary straw man you've created.

And, further to my point, there are indeed many pogroms/ethnic cleanses by Israeli Jews (a majority) against Arab-Palestinian

I meant the opposite, pogroms against Israeli Jews. Pogroms against the weaker Palestinians only makes my point--thank you for making my point yet again.

[TylerDurden]

For the last time, I never claimed to be a Libertarian, I said I was libertarian-leaning, just as you said you're not a libertarian but are sympathetic to Ron Paul. Why is that so hard for you of all people to understand?

I am actually an individualist anarchist which is very close to Libertarianism(rightwing that is). I worship chaos more than most but have at  least some integrity in that I support most of RP's views. You are just a hypocrite. Please, in future, just admit to who you really would vote for, such as Obama or  Romney or worse.

Again, I never said they don't exist, apparently you refuse to even acknowledge the point I was trying to make and instead prefer to rant on against the imaginary straw man you've created.

Your point was bankrupt and contradicted my own facts, so your point was debunked completely.

I meant the opposite, pogroms against Israeli Jews. Pogroms against the weaker Palestinians only makes my point--thank you for making my point yet again.

You retarded moron! You can't win against my points, so arbitrarily change your stance as soon as I debunk it. You pathetic hypocrite! Amusingly, there is very bad treatment of Jews even in Israel, at least  as regards those Jews who flout Zionist rules. Even Jews outside Israel who are "anti-Zionist" are odiously  labelled "self-hating Jews". There was that recent law, for example, which banned any Arab spouse of a Jewish Israeli from getting any State benefits whatsoever, something that would indeed, indirectly, affect the spouse. Plus, I have heard reports of sick Orthodox Israelis insulting/spitting at Israeli Jews who had married Arabs:-

http://jewishproblem.wordpress.com/2012/02/01/anti-racist-mass-immigration-advocating-jews-feel-marriage-to-an-arab-is-national-treason/

In short, your argument is dead. What amazes me is that you feel you can carry on, despite your dishonesty.

[LePatron7]

My personal belief is that people of different ethnicities, background, and religions need to accept each other's differences peacefully.

Nobody has to accept various religious beliefs, or even call any of them logical.

The real problem is when you side with an ethnic group or religion and have the belief they can do no wrong.

You can't say Jews, Catholics, Muslims, or people of any race are perfect.

Everyone's obsessed with the same ideals they get from their parents.

Once people realize that wealth isn't something you use for material gain, and that it's beneficial to use technologies that don't damage the atmosphere or environment. While also supporting better food practices to heal sick populations.

You actually see that financial prosperity can be something beneficial that's used to imrpove the world.

Imagine using technologies like solar panels, water powered boats, cars, air planes etc. Wind powered buildings.

Getting back to making soil nutrient rich, eliminating pesticide run off into the ocean. Banning all nuclear power altogether.

We CAN reduce pollution world wide. We can be peaceful with everyone regardless of the differences between us.

When you realize that virtually every single human fights other humans over literally all the same things. You kind of start to appreciate that you don't need to partake in the needless onslought of human on human violence.

Humans, present day. Are out to ruin various communities of people.

In the ghetto. Gun store, liquor store, smoke shop.

In various more economically stable areas. Fast food chain, fast food chain, starbucks, movie theatre.

The real issue is distractions seperating humans from seeing the bigger picture.

There's people dying and starving world wide. Feeding them nonsense is only going to escalate the disease rates world wide. Subsidising farms and feeding animals gmo grains and other garbage only further destroys human health.

We've seen WWI. We've seen WWII. World War III could be devestating. With most nations having nuclear weapons at their disposal.

Currently, humans are only concerned about profit. It's what big gov wants, which is why politicians protect big business.

When another country has less military force, America always finds some way to step in and put a military base there.

It's gone to far. Intimidation doesn't bring togetherness. Some people can't be bought, they really do live by their morals and prefer to die that way.

To be honest, if your moral code is refusing to kill other humans unless in self defense. Then you're OK. But even then, that can only go so far.

Once you kill that one person, their friends go to get you. Then your friends go to get them. Before you know it were witnessing the onslought of entire generations of people over nothing.

The basis of war is always power. One peoples want power over another people. The two fight endlessly to get their power back.

War can never be the solution. It always results in more fighting.

The solution is common sense. OK, you like god, I like no god. Let's get over it and be friends.

You like specific foods, I like specific foods. Let's get over it, and eat our different foods together.

I like traveling to your country and not getting killed. How about everyone gets over it.

Human on human violence is just plain stupid.

Moral rules people live by are important. The whole problem is when someone finds some more rules they like, they start enforcing it on other people.

They get extremely passionate about it and start teaching it to other people.

Before you know it these people are trying to force people who could care less to like it. Then you have internal conflict.

Religion shouldn't be something people are so hard core about it. Just being like that is stressful and extremely annoying.

I can't stand hanging out with a Christian and all they can tell me is I'm going to hell for smoking, drinking or liking sex.

You don't like using your body for natural enjoyment, I do. Get over it. Preach to someone who wants to hear what you have to say.

Don't think you can save the world through religion, cause it can't be done. We've seen many people take the route and fail consistently.

The deffinition of insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.

Seems like humans not learning from their mistakes fall into this category perfectly.

History constantly repeats itself. A WWIII is preventable. But with nobody willing to back off and give people space to breathe, what can you expcet?

Duh people should practice their religions peacefully. But forcefully trying to overthrow governments when the various governments, dictatorships, and kingdoms can all get along peacefully and enjoy trade world wide.

While slowly making changes to use technologies that aren't damaging for the planet.

We have the opportunity to really fix the planet. But if greed prevails, as it usually does, there's little to no hope for humans. Let alone the planet

[LePatron7]

I don't know if you guys have seen the beatles movie Help!

But it portrays humans exactly as they are.

They admit religion is the basis for all war.

The movie starts in a budhist temple where they can't perform a sacrifice to get a new king because the woman being sacrificed isn't wearing the sacrifial ring.

Scientists, the war driven religious, and all others go all out to steal Ringo's ring.

They insult humans saying that as artists they need protection. So they play George Harrison's classic "I Need You" near an acient building.

With tanks everywhere, military men everywhere. And the budhists trying to invade to get the ring from ringo.

You may not get it. But religion is extremely offensive. And it's a sure way to only make friends within your culture of religion.

Religion is the epicest fail of all time. Religion is the problem, it's never going to be the solution.

[PaleoPhil]

I am actually an individualist anarchist which is very close to Libertarianism(rightwing that is). I worship chaos more than most but have at  least some integrity in that I support most of RP's views. You are just a hypocrite. Please, in future, just admit to who you really would vote for, such as Obama or  Romney or worse.

I already voted for RP and donated to his campaign. I'm not going to bother responding to your insults and arguments as you are you're own best refuter of your own points and credibility with your bizarre, contradictory rants and straw men and you seem to be getting out of hand. In most forums you'd probably have been warned or censored by now.

I don't know if you guys have seen the beatles movie Help!

But it portrays humans exactly as they are.

They admit religion is the basis for all war.

Yes, I did see the movie and religion is a major factor in war and friction between people, though not the only one. Sometimes it can be just an excuse or an added layer on top of other reasons. There's a joke in Ireland that explains it well. Here's a version of it:

A journalist, researching for an article on the complex political situation in Northern Ireland, was in a pub in a war-torn area of Belfast. One of his potential informants leaned over his pint of Guinness and suspiciously cross-examined the journalist: "Are you a Catholic or a Protestant?" the Irishman asked.

"Neither," replied the journalist; "I'm an atheist."

The Irishman, not content with this answer, put a further question: "Ah, but are you a Catholic atheist or a Protestant atheist?"

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Protestant_vs._Catholic_atheism

[svrn]

Religion may be a problem sometimes but I find the most problematic religion of all to be atheism. The communist atheists are making it really hard to live freely right now all around the world right now.

[TylerDurden]

I'm not going to bother responding to your insults and arguments  In most forums you'd probably have been warned or censored by now.

What you really mean by that is that if you were in  absolute control, you would censor me - after all, you are not telepathic so cannot speak for most others' opinions - (besides, forums differ greatly, some allow full freedom of speech, others insist on endless rules to be followed, usually leading to the demise of that forum or at least inactivity to a large extent). You're not a fan of the 1st amendment, it seems. But I agree, I went over the top re specific insults.  Anyway, thanks for not attempting to provide a rebuttal of my last point about discrimination against Jews in Israel. It proves my point and , anyway, you would have lost:-

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/books/bookreviews/4838496/Israels-humiliating-discrimination-against-Arab-Jews.html

(excerpt from the above re Israeli-incited pogrom):-"In many cases, Shabi points out, the migration was reluctant, imposed by Zionist pressure and even, she suggests, acts of sabotage in the Arab Jews’ native lands. In several of these, Jews had long been part of the social fabric and had no wish to leave")

Protest against discrimination of Ethiopian Jews in Israel.wmv

This event is an example of Israel's actions directly causing a pogrom against Jews in Arab countries:-

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_exodus_from_Arab_and_Muslim_countries

[PaleoPhil]

What you really mean by that is that if you were in  absolute control, you would censor me

No, what this appears to mean is you have an arrogant habit of acting like you can read people's minds and pretend they think what you want them to think to justify your own views via ad hominem undercutting of the other person's credibility when you fail to refute their points.

Anyway, thanks for not attempting to provide a rebuttal of my last point about discrimination against Jews in Israel. It proves my point and , anyway, you would have lost:-

It just means that I'm letting you have the last word, because you always insist on getting it anyway and this would go on forever otherwise.