fish vs red meats

[Dorothy]

Oopsy - just read that their wine sauce was "secret". I can't do that because if they added canola oil or some other nasty oil I could feel really sick. I have to be so careful about that. Cooked or even pasteurized dairy - a little and I'm ok - but just even a tiny bit of a nasty oil does a real number on me.

Darn those company secrets! 

[PaleoPhil]

Re: the thread topic, I seem to get more benefit from red meats than fish, but I don't see why it has to be an either-or. Why not eat both? Most of our ancient ancestors probably wouldn't have turned their noses up at either and there is plenty of science showing benefits from the highest quality versions of both.

[cherimoya_kid]

Re: the thread topic, I seem to get more benefit from red meats than fish, but I don't see why it has to be an either-or. Why not eat both? Most of our ancient ancestors probably wouldn't have turned their noses up at either and there is plenty of science showing benefits from the highest quality versions of both.

Yes, exactly, and I recommend both, too, as long as you can get good-quality sources of both. There are some organs/tissues of land animals that have excellent healing benefits.

[Löwenherz]

Nice to know what's working for you. 
What I noticed is that our needs change.

I agree.

Nevertheless it's interesting to notice that my reaction to raw beef didn't change since 1998/1999, the beginning of my raw food lifestyle...

Löwenherz

[cherimoya_kid]

I agree.

Nevertheless it's interesting to notice that my reaction to raw beef didn't change since 1998/1999, the beginning of my raw food lifestyle...

Löwenherz

Beef is probably one of our most natural foods. It's probably the least allergenic thing you can eat, and one of the easiest to digest, for most people.

[Joy2012]

Beef is probably one of our most natural foods. It's probably the least allergenic thing you can eat, and one of the easiest to digest, for most people.

What is the reason for what you stated?

[cherimoya_kid]

What is the reason for what you stated?

Well, humans have been eating meat since before we evolved into being human.  It makes sense that a food that we've been eating continuously for millions of years would NOT cause allergic reactions, or be difficult to digest.

Also, there's plenty of research showing that red meat has probably the lowest rate of allergic reaction of any food.  Also, it's difficult to find a raw whole food that's easier to digest than red meat.  Very few people have problems digesting it.

[Joy2012]

Thanks.

[CitrusHigh]

Most of the mods here can get away with eating some cooked food from time to time without major health problems.  In fact, most of the mods do, including me.  That's not the point.  The POINT is that you can either eat a mostly-raw diet, with some cheating, and be satisfied with that...or you can keep researching.

First this is doesn't make any sense in the context of your other accusations. The VAST majority of my diet is raw, most of that is raw animal foods. The relatively small amount of cooked foods I eat, I do so for the same reasons you probably do, because they taste good and so far I haven't found raw foods that could mimic those particular flavors. I NEVER stop researching and learning, I'm just not so biased about where the info comes from. I have the wisdom and brainpower to consider everything and determine what makes sense and what does not. That's why I can look at fantastic claims of flies manifesting on rock without feeling threatened.  If it's true, then that will become apparent eventually, if false, the same.

Also, with having double standards like those in the above comments (you can eat some cooked foods but I can't?) you are setting yourself up in your little kingdom here like a monarch, or the leaders of the catholic church (we can have riches, but you can't). Get over yourself, I'm not trying to become the alpha here, just raising some valid, highly pertinent ideas related to this discussion. You're thinking of health as strictly the biochemical, acute, physical, health of individual human beings (which is both speciesist and narrow sighted), but our health is tied to that of everything else on the planet. The fact that we have driven as many species to extinction as we have (will you deny this?) is the kind of evidence prosecutors love to have in court. This is where many of our species of fish are headed in less than the 20 years you're citing for your farmed frankenfish.

[cherimoya_kid]

Speciesist?
 
Frankenfish?

You know, I'm not even going to touch that.

And as for double standard, I've gone literally YEARS at a time without eating EVEN ONE SPECK of cooked food.  I don't think that's really necessary for the purposes of the experiment, but I've done it. However, I think you should at least try to go a few weeks or months at a time without, just for the purposes of the experiment, to see what it does for you.  In nearly every case, it's not whether or not you eat cooked, anyway, it's really the amount that you eat.  1 gram of cooked (say, moderately boiled) meat is not going to cause most people any real health problems, even if they eat it every day.  100 grams every day, on the other hand, might cause some problems.  1000 grams definitely would cause at least some health issues, for pretty much anyone.  That's just an example.


And to clarify, I've got nothing against eating farmed fish, as long as they are as healthy as the wild-caught.  However, freshwater fish do tend to have some nastier parasites, and all the farm-raised fish that I'm aware of are freshwater, with the exception of salmon and shrimp.  Neither farmed salmon nor farmed shrimp are fed particularly ideal diets, especially the salmon.  Show me a farm-raised saltwater fish that is as healthy as its wild counterpart, and I'll eat it happily.

[PaleoPhil]

Hoo boy, the price of one of my favorite fish, wild king salmon, is up to $29.99/lb at my local healthfood market (vs. $6.99/.lb for top-quality 100% grassfed ground beef, and $11.99/.lb for duck breast at the same market).  It has gotten out of my reach for anything but a tiny sample each week or two.

[PaleoPhil]

Wow, wild king salmon shot up again to $33.99/lb! However, the prediction for the catch this year is optimistic, so maybe the price will go down.

[Adora]

Mackerel is comparatively cheep. I just tried Shad fish and it was $7 fresh caught, and a little salmon like-ish!!! Eating a variety makes your favorites never get old.
I feel poor lately too. I just eat the best I can in tough times. I don't like the pinch but I could easily become extravagant, so it balances me. I've been eating 6-8 eggs a day. I lightly fry the whites in coconut oil or butter on the lowest setting it is warm but only to streaks of white, not all cooked.Then I mix the warmed/cooked whites back with the yolks and slurp it all down. I love it actually. I started cooking the whites for my dog then I wanted some. The whites are like egg drop soup, without the other stuff. I salt and pepper it. I have no stomach upset, which I still sometimes get from totally raw whites, and then I don't waste when I'm broke. When I'm working more hours, I'll eat more fresh fish and meat, but I'm enjoying this and its better than abandoning ship.

[PaleoPhil]

Shad are herring, right? I occasionally see and buy "fresh" and frozen raw mackerel at my main market--it was last at $12.23/lb. I haven't seen fresh raw herring there yet, unfortunately. They do have pickled (vinegared) herring, which I don't care for. I doubt I buy enough fish and don't have enough freezer space to make special trips for possibly cheaper fish worth it for me.

[Adora]

yes  Shad is herring, it is like salmon in that it lives in the sea and spawns in rivers. Not salmon, but not bad.

[CitrusHigh]

What is sockeye salmon priced at for you Phil? Here it volley's between 9.99/lb which is ridiculously cheap IMO, and 13.99, which is still too cheap IMO.

[PaleoPhil]

Generally $12.99-13.99, IIRC, mostly frozen. I was buying it a lot, but lately only frozen sockeye has been available, and not even that sometimes, so my purchases of it have dropped off somewhat. I used to like to buy king salmon too, which I find to be the best tasting salmon, but my purchases were somewhat limited by price and now it has gone out of my price range other than the occasional small morsel. One rarely reads in Paleo forums, raw or cooked, about high and rising prices of the best Paleo foods. Instead I mainly see "Eat ___, it's yummy." When I look for the most often praised foods (king salmon, cherimoya,  durian, raw dairy foods, etc.) I often find them to be much more expensive and/or difficult to obtain than many other foods, including even other Paleo foods. The cashier nearly had a fit when he saw the cost of a single cherimoya, for example. This probably generally affects those of us in cold, land-locked areas more than people living in warm seaports. Increasingly I've had to compromise on taste and variety to try to keep the food budget under control.

Like Lex, I also want to keep things relatively simple, so I'm not highly interested in going to lots more food sources than the four or five I currently use for expensive foods that aren't my staples.

[PaleoPhil]

Lately, the cheaper sockeye salmon hasn't been available at all at my main market, even frozen. Today the cheapest wild salmon was frozen Coho, $18.39/lb.

[Justin]

Mackerel is comparatively cheep. I just tried Shad fish and it was $7 fresh caught, and a little salmon like-ish!!! Eating a variety makes your favorites never get old.
I feel poor lately too. I just eat the best I can in tough times. I don't like the pinch but I could easily become extravagant, so it balances me. I've been eating 6-8 eggs a day. I lightly fry the whites in coconut oil or butter on the lowest setting it is warm but only to streaks of white, not all cooked.Then I mix the warmed/cooked whites back with the yolks and slurp it all down. I love it actually. I started cooking the whites for my dog then I wanted some. The whites are like egg drop soup, without the other stuff. I salt and pepper it. I have no stomach upset, which I still sometimes get from totally raw whites, and then I don't waste when I'm broke. When I'm working more hours, I'll eat more fresh fish and meat, but I'm enjoying this and its better than abandoning ship.

Fresh sashimi grade mackerel is fantastic, I could eat it along with salmon and yellow tail all day, everyday if I didn't have to take out a second mortgage to afford it.

[Adora]

      I don't get sashimi grade. I don't really know if that means the same thing all the time. I heard it refers to previously frozen, or a type of cut. Instead I go to the best fish market in town. They have fresh fish Tues. -Sat.  They are a family that has been in business a long time and they know an amazing amount about fish. I'm learning from them a little at a time. I go there often and they know me and what I like. I sometimes spend $15/lb on fish but I find nice fish for $9, or $12 most often. I usually buy the whole fish and clean and skin it myself. My point is to find a fish man who knows his fish, then he can tell you what is the best fish for your $$$$. I just bought a nice piece of tuna $12/lb that he said he liked better than the $28 sashimi. It was good. Anybody who lives near a city should find a good fish market. I hope you find better deals.

[PaleoPhil]

I just buy the best wild fish I can afford and notice that the best of the best tends to say "sashimi grade," for whatever reason. I don't really care about the label, so I don't think it's influencing me overly much. I think they tend to choose the preferred types and cuts as well as best quality of fish for "sashimi grade," which may all be factors. For example, king salmon is only sold in shashimi grade at my main market. It's expensive, so when people buy it they tend to want the best, I figure. I would think that coastal cities probably generally have more and cheaper and/or fresher fish markets than inland cities. There is a fish market in a nearby town, but they only list frozen wild salmon, none "fresh", which would probably have to be express-vanned on a lengthy trip from Boston or NY Harbour to their Vermont market for a high price, and apparently no king salmon, which may be too pricey for their clientele. Like my main market, they do also take special orders at an extra cost.

[Justin]

      I don't get sashimi grade. I don't really know if that means the same thing all the time. I heard it refers to previously frozen, or a type of cut. Instead I go to the best fish market in town. They have fresh fish Tues. -Sat.  They are a family that has been in business a long time and they know an amazing amount about fish. I'm learning from them a little at a time. I go there often and they know me and what I like. I sometimes spend $15/lb on fish but I find nice fish for $9, or $12 most often. I usually buy the whole fish and clean and skin it myself. My point is to find a fish man who knows his fish, then he can tell you what is the best fish for your $$$$. I just bought a nice piece of tuna $12/lb that he said he liked better than the $28 sashimi. It was good. Anybody who lives near a city should find a good fish market. I hope you find better deals.

It usually is suppose to be synonymous with fresh wild caught fish, the best cut, or high grade that sushi restaurants procure, at least that's what I've been told and what I can surmise. I think your right though in that may not be necessarily the case and it can differ substantially from one place to the next. That's great that you found a fantastic source, the best way to go for sure. I live more in the center of the U.S. in Colorado and it's been hard to try to find a good source for a decent price as most fish needs to be overnighted in since CO isn't coastal which leads to the expensive price tags.

[Lynnzard]

I just buy the best wild fish I can afford and notice that the best of the best tends to say "sashimi grade," for whatever reason. I don't really care about the label, so I don't think it's influencing me overly much. I think they tend to choose the preferred types and cuts as well as best quality of fish for "sashimi grade," which may all be factors. For example, king salmon is only sold in shashimi grade at my main market. It's expensive, so when people buy it they tend to want the best, I figure. I would think that coastal cities probably generally have more and cheaper and/or fresher fish markets than inland cities. There is a fish market in a nearby town, but they only list frozen wild salmon, none "fresh", which would probably have to be express-vanned on a lengthy trip from Boston or NY Harbour to their Vermont market for a high price, and apparently no king salmon, which may be too pricey for their clientele. Like my main market, they do also take special orders at an extra cost.

I was researching this recently as I was looking to source some high quality raw fish without having constantly to eat it at a restaurant. As far as labeling laws apply, there is no regulation whatsoever in the US, at least, as to what can be called sushi or sashimi grade fish. In general, seafood vendors call fish "sashimi grade" when it has been flash frozen on the ships shortly after catch and is then cut in ways preferred by sushi chefs for preparing the smaller cuts for individual servings.

[PaleoPhil]

Yeah, that's one reason why I go by what tastes the best, basically using the Instincto approach, rather than what the label says. It just so happens that the fish labeled "sashimi grade" tastes the best to me, but the label means nothing to me. My local market actually has the best quality food I've ever encountered anywhere on the East coast of the USA. They have very high standards. Unfortunately, they also have high prices. LOL

[raw]

My five yrs old son hates fish and all other sea food. He becomes ill before when I tried to feed them forcefully buying from whole food markets only. I remember the day I gave him 1st raw beef, after that he asked me to give him that again. I haven't given him any poultry yet, 'cause they are all hybrid  (chickens are originated from India).
So very high quality grass feed beef is our staple food and nothing else. My 5 months old daughter is eating raw beef too. I cure all my illness on beef only. When people complain about beef, I can see where it is coming from. My farmer is completely works against FDA. He has also such a small family farm that he can't give me enough sometimes what I want. He hand picked all organs for me and that takes hours. I order even placenta from him.

So, sea food is definitely not for everyone, but beef which is very high quality, anyone can be benefited by that.

I do agree that once upon a time, sea was the major source of energy and some points it is still like that, but we destroy already our water and we are selling the water now, how shameful!