Ray Peat podcast...interesting!

[invisible]

I think it would be difficult to tell if something is giving problems when eating such a large variety of food. If you're looking to test if orange juice/fruit is causing problems, you probably would have to consume a notable amount of it. Starch could cause mucus, but sugar causing mucus doesn't make much sense. Perhaps orange juice specifically is giving you an issue, but sugar or fruit in general is not something that should be causing mucus.  It could be a reaction with a different food - meat and solid fruits tend to work better than juices and meat. Have you considered trying to follow a Ray Peat type of diet to experiment? That is, if you have any issues at the moment, everything could be going perfectly for you, I don't know

[PaleoPhil]

Why would starch cause mucus but not sugar?

I actually also already have pastured butter, coconut milk and water, and Great Lakes gelatin and and started recently experimenting with them with no noticeable effects. I also sometimes have a cup of coffee in the morning. Instead of OJ, cooked tubers and table sugar, which all give me some negative effects, I eat raw fermented honey, carrots, parsnips and berries. So I'm already doing something very close to a Ray Peat diet.

[HIT_it_RAW]

Why would starch cause mucus but not sugar?

I actually also already have pastured butter, coconut milk and water, and Great Lakes gelatin and and started recently experimenting with them with no noticeable effects. I also sometimes have a cup of coffee in the morning. Instead of OJ, cooked tubers and table sugar, which all give me some negative effects, I eat raw fermented honey, carrots, parsnips and berries. So I'm already doing something very close to a Ray Peat diet.

Your re-introduced coffee in your diet after years of raw?? Brave! This stuff is addictive you know... I just cut it out completely and have a hard time keeping it out and I only drank 1 occasionally 2 cups a day.

[aLptHW4k4y]

Drinking green/black tea for the purpose Ray Peat drinks so much coffee (reduce iron absorption) is at least twice as effective.
But tea/coffee only block non-heme iron (found mainly in plants as far as I know), so it doesn't do much on our diet of largely animal food, nor on Ray Peat's diet which is similar. He's drinking liters of coffee thinking it will save him from iron overload or something..

[aLptHW4k4y]

Seems like in meats 60% of the iron is non-heme, so maybe tea/coffee do have some iron blocking effect after all.

[PaleoPhil]

Thanks, that reminds me that I'm back to drinking tea again too. I take breaks from tea and coffee and watch for any signs of withdrawal, to make sure I don't overload or build up plant toxins or any such thing. I don't drink a lot anyway. My main tea/coffee beverage is actually spruce tips tea either lightly heated or just allowed to soak in water. Yummy stuff. The tea itself is dried, of course, and therefore possibly heated, but I'm not currently a purist anyway.

[Aaaaaa]

Thanks, that reminds me that I'm back to drinking tea again too. I take breaks from tea and coffee and watch for any signs of withdrawal, to make sure I don't overload or build up plant toxins or any such thing. I don't drink a lot anyway. My main tea/coffee beverage is actually spruce tips tea either lightly heated or just allowed to soak in water. Yummy stuff. The tea itself is dried, of course, and therefore possibly heated, but I'm not currently a purist anyway.

I do the same with coffee and tea, and they don't seem to affect me negatively like the used to, and I never get addicted. :-)

[PaleoPhil]

I reviewed my health diary notes to see what foods appeared to trigger excess mucus in me (as always, YMMV), and see what I had found re: orange juice, given that Ray Peat is such a proponent of it, which makes it somewhat relevant here.

Here are my notes from years ago, with a few minor updates. This was accumulated over quite some time, so there's probably more detail here than most would be interested in, but here it is, for any who are interested.

Foods and stimuli that cause (me) mucus, sinus congestion, runny nose and sinus drip and/or stomach upset
(BEFORE GLUTEN-FREE DIET YEARS AGO)

Strong reaction:
Orange juice (regular acid; low-acid OJ was much less of a problem)—throat mucus, acid stomach
Lemonade--throat mucus
Raw onions--acid stomach, heartburn
Fish oil tablets and gels—indigestion, gas (fish-flavored belches)
Cold weather—runny nose and sinus congestion, throat mucus, face mask helps
Beer, especially Sam Adams Boston Lager (high in acidic hops): acid stomach, reflux, heartburn, gas, flatulation, hangover headache from just a couple beers (whereas some other beers don't seem to have this effect with even more beers consumed)
0 – 3% fat milk (pasteurized cow's)--throat mucus
Ice cream--throat mucus, especially colder
Tomato sauce: acid stomach, stomach gas, reflux
Welshire Farms Hot & Spicy Tom-Toms Turkey Snack Stick (spices & lactic acid starter culture): burning stomach
Vegetarian "everything" pizza: stomach gas, belching, nausea, flatulation, and diarrhea
Red and green bell peppers (raw or lightly cooked)—stomach gas, especially green peppers
Cruciferous vegetables like cabbage and cauliflower—difficult to digest, stomach gas and belching
Caffeine—excess resulted in increased frequency of bloody noses and aggravation of stress, irritability, insomnia, anxiety and panic
Colas and root beer—throat mucus, anxiety
Milk-based yogurt  (pasteurized cow's)--throat mucus
Cheese (pasteurized cow's)—throat mucus

Moderate reaction:
5% unsaturated fat soy milk--throat mucus
O.S. Cranberry juice from concentrate—throat mucus
Soy yogurt--throat mucus
3% "low fat" soy milk--throat mucus
0% "nonfat" soy milk--throat mucus

Mild reaction:
Cold beverages, including water--throat mucus (cold water causes throat mucus, hot water does not)
Pear juice--throat mucus
Grape juice--throat mucus
Cape Cod Cranberry juice (apple, grape, cranberry and lemon juice concentrates)--throat mucus
Recharge Tropical Thirst Quencher (concentrated white grape juice, hibiscus tea, orange extract, sea salt)—very mild throat mucus reaction
Cornmeal mush and fried cornmeal mush—runny nose
Power Bar: Banana (grape and pear juice concentrate, milk protein isolate)—throat mucus
Fruit sorbet—throat mucus (likely due to the coldness, maybe somewhat due to the fruit acid)

Foods that did NOT seem to cause throat mucus, sinus congestion, runny nose and sinus drip and/or stomach upset, or seemed beneficial

Apples—feel less malaise and nausea and more energy after eating; they seem to help bowels a bit
Low-acid fruits
Lean meats
Fish
Non-dense and low-acid vegetables
Soluble fiber
[and later on I found that raw meats, animal fats, and organs were very beneficial and raw fermented honey was quite beneficial in moderation, even though honey is generally highly acidic, though too much on an empty stomach does cause a burning sensation in my stomach]

It looks like acidity and coldness were two big factors for me in triggering mucus and other issues. Given that I'm handling lemon juice much better, I'm curious how well I'd handle OJ now and whether it would taste any better to me now, but I'm not sure I want to tempt myself, given the problems it caused me in the past.

I can drink ice cold water now without any throat or sinus mucus and cold weather triggers little or no mucus/congestion as long as I keep the raw animal fat intake high and the carb intake low (especially easily digestible carbs).

One of the interesting things about my health diary was that it pointed me away from modern foods and to Paleo foods other than acidic and sugary fruits/juices even before I learned the basic evolutionary nutrition hypothesis.

BTW, I should also note that all orange juice except fresh squeezed tended to give me a bad aftertaste that made it more and more unappealing to me, especially once I found much tastier foods that I also fared far better on. Fresh-squeezed OJ didn't have as bad an aftertaste.

[invisible]

Why would starch cause mucus but not sugar?

I actually also already have pastured butter, coconut milk and water, and Great Lakes gelatin and and started recently experimenting with them with no noticeable effects. I also sometimes have a cup of coffee in the morning. Instead of OJ, cooked tubers and table sugar, which all give me some negative effects, I eat raw fermented honey, carrots, parsnips and berries. So I'm already doing something very close to a Ray Peat diet.

The simplest reason would be that simple sugars are more easily digestible than complex carbs, and will digest entirely in the small intestine.

It is also necessary to eat protein with sugar on a Ray peat diet, i.e., do not mono eat meat. Sugar should be able to be eaten alone.

[PaleoPhil]

But if carbs are part of the cause of the mucus, then wouldn't carbs that are more easily and therefore quickly digested cause a stronger mucus reaction?

[PaleoPhil]

If Ray Peat is right that lean whitefish is healthier to eat than omega-3-rich wild salmon and tuna, then Instincto must not work at all for me, because I don't care much for most whitefish, especially raw, and FAR prefer salmon and tuna. My instincts tell me to eat the salmon and tuna.

[invisible]

But if carbs are part of the cause of the mucus, then wouldn't carbs that are more easily and therefore quickly digested cause a stronger mucus reaction?

carbs aren't part of the cause of the mucus, poor digestion and inflammatory stress hormones are.

[invisible]

If Ray Peat is right that lean whitefish is healthier to eat than omega-3-rich wild salmon and tuna, then Instincto must not work at all for me, because I don't care much for most whitefish, especially raw, and FAR prefer salmon and tuna. My instincts tell me to eat the salmon and tuna.

Seafood rich in vitamin D could help protect against the PUFA damage (my own thought, not Peat's).

Supplementing with extracted fish oil would not be advised.

[PaleoPhil]

carbs aren't part of the cause of the mucus, poor digestion and inflammatory stress hormones are.

Remember, I've been talking about MY mucus reaction here, not yours. Your assumptions don't necessarily match my experience.

[invisible]

Remember, I've been talking about MY mucus reaction here, not yours. Your assumptions don't necessarily match my experience.

I was mainly just explaining Ray Peat's views more so than my own.

The Ray Peat viewpoint that "carbs aren't part of the cause of the mucus, poor digestion and inflammatory stress hormones are" is, as far as I'm aware, referring to human physiology and not just isolated cases of individuals where YYMV etc. It's not just an assumption; sugar’s effect on stress hormones has been studied. Mucus, excess sebum, oil are side effects of elevated stress hormones. Those with mucus problems on a Ray Peat diet could be a result of dairy consumption, lacking minerals, not enough fruit.

If someone is finding that simple sugar/ripe fruits are causing mucus or oiliness, I'm inclined to think the problem lies elsewhere in the diet, and it's not sugar that needs to be removed, but something else (unless you have a deeper explanation as to why you believe the simple carbs are an issue?).

If you're convinced that sugar is inherently detrimental (which, understandably, many people are), nothing can really be done to make your views compatible with Peat's fundamentals.

[PaleoPhil]

Mucus, excess sebum, oil are side effects of elevated stress hormones.

Thanks for the idea. So does drinking OJ elevate my stress hormones?

If you're convinced that sugar is inherently detrimental....

I didn't say that. Remember, I eat raw fermented honey and benefit from it (though not from unfermented raw honey, at least not yet; maybe some day).

You appear to be speaking mostly about something much different than what I am. It sounds like you're mainly talking about theories about what works for everyone, whereas I have tried to be careful to speak only about my own personal experience. None of what I've said was meant to necessarily apply to anyone else. Theories about why starch causes mucus don't do a lot to explain why some starch-free foods have that effect on me, whereas other foods do not. Stress could be a factor, though it doesn't seem to explain why one food has the effect but another does not, unless the trigger food increases stress hormones, perhaps.

[invisible]

So does drinking OJ elevates my stress hormones?

It shouldn't. Scrap the orange juice, try a different fruit.

I didn't say that. Remember, I eat raw fermented honey and benefit from it (though not from unfermented raw honey, at least not yet; maybe some day).

You implied that you believe sugar causes your mucus.

I'll rephrase and say that if you are against consuming a relatively high sugar diet , then you can't  eat inline with Ray Peat's fundamentals.

Theories about why starch causes mucus don't do a lot to explain why some starch-free foods have that effect on me, whereas other foods do not. Stress could be a factor, though it doesn't seem to explain why one food has the effect but another does not, unless the trigger food increases stress hormones, perhaps.

Food combinations, the diet as a whole, nutrient status etc are potential issues.

Ultimately, there's nothing that can really be said to someone who just insists that it doesn't work for them.

[PaleoPhil]

You implied that you believe sugar causes your mucus.

If you get to know me you'll learn that I'm pretty literal. I rarely mean to imply anything more than what I actually say.  Please note that I was even careful to put an "if" at the front of my question regarding carbs:

if carbs are part of the cause of the mucus, then

I think easily-digested bursts of sugar without the context of microbiota that help me consume it could indeed be a factor, but IF it is, I've established pretty clearly that it isn't the only one. I'm not condemning all sugar-containing foods for everyone or anything like that. I'm not into dogma, just puzzling out my personal experience and asking questions and reporting how my experience correlates with the assumptions made.

In reviewing my notes, two factors that I had identified before still stand out pretty strongly--acidity and coldness. Regular acid OJ gives me more mucus than low-acid OJ and ice-cold water used to give me throat mucus (though not any more), whereas room-temperature to hot water did not. High bursts of easily digestible sugar, such as in a variety of fruit juices, including even fresh-squeezed, could also be a factor, though seemingly less so than in the past and they are often accompanied by acidity and/or coldness, so it's hard to tell for sure. Perhaps it's a combination of all three factors--acid, cold, and bursts of easily-digestible sugar, and maybe stress exacerbates it, thus potentially adding a fourth factor.

Ultimately, there's nothing that can really be said to someone who just insists that it doesn't work for them.

Luckily I haven't done that, or at least didn't intend to give that impression. I probably eat more like Ray Peat than most members of this forum, much of which I've pointed out in this very thread. When personal experience varies slightly from what the guru says and this causes this sort of reaction, it gives the impression that we're slipping toward dogma territory here, which is common whenever diet gurus enter the topic of discussion. Heck, Tyler has been way more contrary about Ray than I have, even going to the point of seeming to ridicule Ray at times.

Don't get me wrong, I do appreciate the different viewpoint. It's why I ask questions about issues with carby foods at this forum with plenty of carb-lovers and share the positive info I find on carby foods at a forum full of low carbers. I'm not interested in yes-men just "amen"ing what I say. People who have different experiences and thoughts tend to give me more insights and put my own guesses through the toughest tests.

And if I'm looking for info on what the best fruits are and the best way to eat them, say, I take a very different approach and go to the forums where they are beloved to learn. So for fruits I go to the fruit experts, including a fruit-heavy raw vegan forum. From them I learned something I had pondered as a possibility--the best way to eat at least some fruits seems to be overripe and slightly fermented, with the bacteria perhaps aiding in the digestion. This also fits well with my experience regarding fermented honey.

[invisible]

Luckily I haven't done that. I probably eat more like Ray Peat than most members of this forum, much of which I've pointed out in this very thread.

From my impression, your diet seems to be rather different to that of a Ray Peat diet.

When personal experience varies slightly from what the guru says and this causes this sort of reaction, it gives the impression that we're slipping toward dogma territory here, which is common whenever diet gurus enter the topic of discussion.

That's fair, however, when someone is claiming that it doesn't work for them and their anecdotal evidence is different from the majority of others, and they are lacking a sound physiological explanation for why it's not working, it's only natural that I suspect various other issues.

Ray Peat is also not necessarily a diet guru. Through his research he has highlighted what he believes to be causes of health issues in the human body. That's his starting point. Foods can then be used to control these conditions within the body (stress hormones, thyroid output, estrogen etc). It's a very undogmatic approach, even if, like Tyler, you disagree with some of his conclusions.

Don't get me wrong, I do appreciate the different viewpoint. It's why I ask questions about issues with carby foods at this forum with plenty of carb-lovers and share the positive info I find on carby foods at a forum full of low carbers. I'm not interested in yes-men just "amen"ing what I say. People who have different experiences and thoughts tend to give me more insights and put my own guesses through the toughest tests.

And if I'm looking for info on what the best fruits are and the best way to eat them, say, I take a very different approach and go to the forums where they are beloved to learn. So for fruits I go to the fruit experts, including a fruit-heavy raw vegan forum. From them I learned something I had pondered as a possibility--the best way to eat at least some fruits seems to be overripe and slightly fermented.

That makes a lot of sense, but it's critical to remember that the context of a food in the diet as a whole is important.

[PaleoPhil]

From my impression, your diet seems to be rather different to that of a Ray Peat diet.

My diet is different than any I've ever come across, so you could say that about any guru (and I use the term broadly to refer to any relatively prominent/popular diet proponent, it's not meant purely as a pejorative--sorry for not thinking to explain that), but Ray's diet comes closer to mine than the vast majority of them. If what I'm saying irritates you, then you wouldn't like the other couple diet forums and most of the blogs I peruse at all, because their diets differ much more from Ray's than mine differs from Ray's. I'm also friendly with Danny Roddy, who's a fan of Ray Peat (and even bought Danny's ebook that contains Peatatarian tips), so I even have an indirect connection to Ray.

That's fair, however, when someone is claiming that it doesn't work for them

Again, I didn't say that. Please stop putting words into my mouth/keyboard. Much of my experience jibes well with Ray's recommendations and I pointed out early on that Ray's diet is not that dramatically different from raw Paleo, and could be relatively easily converted into raw Paleo with some simple changes (see my post). Just because I shared where my experience doesn't seem to fit well doesn't mean I'm claiming that his whole package of recommendations don't work for me.

As I pointed out in my second post, "Ray Peat may provide some useful info on some things, which is why I listened to the interview. I peruse a wide variety of sources." In addition to Danny Roddy's stuff, I've also read small bits of Ray's own writings, sometimes shared by others like Danny.

and their anecdotal evidence is different from the majority of others,

Who is this majority of others? The few in this thread? At any rate, it's irrelevant, because I never claimed that my experience was common. If it was common I probably would already know the answers and wouldn't have to ask the questions.

and they are lacking a sound physiological explanation for why it's not working

Of course I lack a complete physiological explanation, that's why I said I was puzzled by it and asked questions. The growing sense I'm getting is that your responses seem to be more about defending Ray Peat's guru status than answering my questions or attempting to understand or explain my personal experience.

[PaleoPhil]

Tyler, I think I'm getting a better and better sense of why you generally aren't fond of guru discussion and generally seem to go to great lengths to try to discourage guru worship here. I still wouldn't go as far as you do in criticizing diet leaders like Ray Peat and their followers, and I already had some inkling of what you meant, but I think I can empathize with you more on it in the time since we discussed it last (and I'm not singling out this thread or any one person; I've noticed this general tendency across multiple threads and within most forums). I can imagine you've had to deal with quite a bit of it in your more lengthy presence at and moderation of this forum.

On a related note, I've also been noticing more and more dogmatic-type talk in Gary Taubes' verbal and written communications, though I don't think he does it intentionally or even fully, consciously realizes it.

On the other hand, I still learn stuff from threads like this one, so it's not like there isn't any value. Isn't it at least interesting how easy it is to convert Ray's diet into a raw Paleo diet and how Ray is one of the few voices speaking out in favor of sugary raw Paleo foods like sweet fruits?

On another related note, one thing I liked about Lex Rooker's posts early on was that he came across as an anti-guru, with think-for-yourself sort of language.

[invisible]

My diet is different than any I've ever come across, so you could say that about any guru (and I use the term broadly to refer to any relatively prominent/popular diet proponent, it's not meant purely as a pejorative--sorry for not thinking to explain that), but Ray's diet comes closer to mine than the vast majority of them.

That's not the issue, the issue is the problems of sugar. I said that because the diet as a whole is important to gauge how sugar is reacting. Eating sugar won't simply stop excess mucus if there are other things in the diet that could be promoting it.

Again, I didn't say that. Please stop putting words into my mouth/keyboard.

If something is causing you excessive mucus, it would appear that it's not working for you.

There are reasons why someone who is following something that would be considered a Ray Peat diet could still get excessive mucus; sugar just shouldn't be the cause.

Much of my experience jibes well with Ray's recommendations and I pointed out early on that Ray's diet is not that dramatically different from raw Paleo, and could be relatively easily converted into raw Paleo with some simple changes (see my post). Just because I shared where my experience doesn't seem to fit well doesn't mean I'm claiming that his whole package of recommendations don't work for me.

I'm aware it can work on Raw Paleo. I did, afterall, register on this forum around 3 years ago, so I was able to see that a diet of fruit, meat and dairy has a very clear similarity.

If you're looking to stay raw and paleo, a high carb/lower fat raw paleo diet without mono eating is an excellent way to combine the two, imo.

Who is this majority of others? The few in this thread?

The majority of Peat followers or others following high sugar, virtual starch free diets don't report the issue. 80-10-10 followers don't seem to report the issue either. Dental issues and emaciation concerns are common, but not mucus.

Of course I lack a complete physiological explanation, that's why I said I was puzzled by it and asked questions. The growing sense I'm getting is that your responses seem to be more about defending Ray Peat's guru status than answering my questions or attempting to understand or explain my personal experience.

I'm just presenting the reasoning behind some of Ray Peat's recommendations and also alluding to how this conversation appeared to be reaching a dead end. I attempted to explain your experience when I said "Food combinations, the diet as a whole, nutrient status etc are potential issues." What more would you like? I think they are key issues.

[TylerDurden]

Ray Peat's idiotic condemnation of PUFAs makes him about as anti-rawpalaeo as one can get. We rawpalaeos are mostly, after all, in favour of PUFA-rich raw seafood/grassfed meats etc. The trouble with Ray Peat is that he ignores the fact that raw, unrefined PUFAs are perfectly healthy.

As regards gurus, I find that they all have major flaws due to hubris. There is an annoying tendency among most dieters to worship a particular guru in a monotheistic way. The trouble is that no guru can possibly be 100% perfect since perfection does not exist in Nature. So it makes far more sense to depend on a 100+ other scientists, gurus etc. and just depend on those ideas of theirs which fit in with one's experience, and ignore the rest.  No wonder I dislike being labelled as a guru.

[invisible]

Ray Peat's idiotic condemnation of PUFAs makes him about as anti-rawpalaeo as one can get. We rawpalaeos are mostly, after all, in favour of PUFA-rich raw seafood/grassfed meats etc. The trouble with Ray Peat is that he ignores the fact that raw, unrefined PUFAs are perfectly healthy.

With regards to Raw fish, some could infer that the fat is dangerous because polyunsaturated fats, without the presence of saturated fats for protection (which is why beef is fine), go rancid at human body temperature - thus even if they are raw they could still be problematic.

However, raw fish as a whlole food could have components within it that protect the body from possible damage. Fatty fish is a particularly good source of vitamin D which perhaps is in the fish for a reason.

More studies would definitely be needed to make a conclusive decision, the above are just ideas. Raw food diets are unlikely to be really studied extensively to get this information though (although perhaps there has been some research on raw PUFA that I haven't seen), so Peat isn't necessarily ignoring the fact that they are healthy (if they are).

To say that raw fish is completely healthy  because the inuit ate raw fish and were healthy, or that raw unprocessed food is always healthy isn't the way Peat operates, and in my opinion Peat's way is less dogmatic. However, we can get a lot of insight from both an inside out and outside in way of thinking, especially because the quality of scientific research into diet and human health is relatively poor.

[cherimoya_kid]

Peat is one man.  The Inuit are an entire ethnicity.

And yeah, I'm pretty anti-guru.  They're all wrong about SOMEthing. I can tell you WHAT they're wrong about, too, usually.

The difference between the mods here and gurus is that we don't get paid. We found this knowledge through hard work, just like the better gurus, but we have absolutely no interest in anything other than simply getting it right.

We, therefore, have the ability to change our opinions more easily than someone who has already written books, papers, etc., and perhaps fears looking foolish (and losing followers and money) if they are caught changing their opinions.

So feel free to be aware of the gurus.  Recognize, however, that this is probably the single best place on the internet for nutrition information, because we are more than willing to criticize absolutely anybody, including each other. Gurus have blind spots.  We, as a group, have few, because we constantly force each other to prove things well with facts, or give up on preaching a particular opinion.   

We have no mercy.  It hurts, but it's a gooood hurt.