Ray Peat podcast...interesting!

[TylerDurden]

Peat is one man.  The Inuit are an entire ethnicity.

I don't buy that either. After all, there are African tribes which happily eat cassava, a very low-nutrient food which needs to have its cyanide-content removed before it can be eaten. So, a unit of lots of humans can still be dead wrong.

As regards Ray Peat, he exaggerates and focuses solely on heavily refined PUFAs. For example, so-called "raw" olive oil appears to be created as a result of a lot of heat-generating pressure, and he also refers to studies on fish-oils to back up his anti-PUFA claims while studiously ignoring multiple other studies which show definite health-benefits for eating seafood. I'm sure that raw olives are perfectly healthy to eat. I never had a problem with those, only with raw olive-oil.

[wodgina]

My diet is different than any I've ever come across, so you could say that about any guru (and I use the term broadly to refer to any relatively prominent/popular diet proponent, it's not meant purely as a pejorative--sorry for not thinking to explain that), but Ray's diet comes closer to mine than the vast majority of them. If what I'm saying irritates you, then you wouldn't like the other couple diet forums and most of the blogs I peruse at all, because their diets differ much more from Ray's than mine differs from Ray's. I'm also friendly with Danny Roddy, who's a fan of Ray Peat (and even bought Danny's ebook that contains Peatatarian tips), so I even have an indirect connection to Ray.
Again, I didn't say that. Please stop putting words into my mouth/keyboard. Much of my experience jibes well with Ray's recommendations and I pointed out early on that Ray's diet is not that dramatically different from raw Paleo, and could be relatively easily converted into raw Paleo with some simple changes (see my post). Just because I shared where my experience doesn't seem to fit well doesn't mean I'm claiming that his whole package of recommendations don't work for me.

As I pointed out in my second post, "Ray Peat may provide some useful info on some things, which is why I listened to the interview. I peruse a wide variety of sources." In addition to Danny Roddy's stuff, I've also read small bits of Ray's own writings, sometimes shared by others like Danny.
Who is this majority of others? The few in this thread? At any rate, it's irrelevant, because I never claimed that my experience was common. If it was common I probably would already know the answers and wouldn't have to ask the questions.
Of course I lack a complete physiological explanation, that's why I said I was puzzled by it and asked questions. The growing sense I'm getting is that your responses seem to be more about defending Ray Peat's guru status than answering my questions or attempting to understand or explain my personal experience.

So who is PP?

4000 post's

[PaleoPhil]

Sorry in advance for the lengthiness of this post, but it seems like there may be some doubt regarding my experience, and I also found plenty of evidence that suggests that mucus/phlegm from OJ is not as uncommon as I thought, so I'm sharing it.

That's not the issue, the issue is the problems of sugar. I said that because the diet as a whole is important to gauge how sugar is reacting. Eating sugar won't simply stop excess mucus if there are other things in the diet that could be promoting it.
If something is causing you excessive mucus, it would appear that it's not working for you.

Do you mean that you think that eating sugar will stop excess mucus? By sugar do you mean the refined table sugar, Coca Cola and OJ that Ray Peat recommends? What are all the foods that you think do promote mucus? You mentioned starch, so presumably starchy tubers would be one type of food that would promote mucus, correct?

80-10-10 followers don't seem to report the issue either.

Not many, true, and please remember that I never claimed that my experience was common, though at least one did 811er did report the mucus/phegm issue in a forum I peruse now and then:

Mucus flem
Posted by Hamish Quinney on October 7, 2009 at 5:33am
http://www.giveittomeraw.com/profiles/blogs/mucus-flem

Hi there, I have been getting mucus flem for a long time now along with other stuff, since I have been on 811 all the other stuff has gone and im truly grateful, will this mucus flem go in time or maybe I need some other good foods for it.
I do eat about 20 bananas a day, I love them, but if I have to introduce something else I can knock some bananas out.
Any suggestions?

Favorite Raw Food or Recipe?
paw paw and banana smoothie yum

As have other former and current plant-heavy dieters. These posts by one of the nicer fellows at the GITMR forum stuck in my mind, because they matched my own experience:

Reply by DOA, MFD [Tsurugi] on August 21, 2011 at 11:04pm
http://www.giveittomeraw.com/xn/detail/1407416:Comment:1758786
 -How does mucus = paleo??  I eat fruits and get mucus.  Mucus is caused by a lot of things, bacterial, allergenic, viral, intolerance, or otherwise.  Mucus increases / decreases are not exclusive to any overgeneralized dietary umbrella.
 
Reply by DOA, MFD on September 6, 2011 at 8:21pm
http://www.giveittomeraw.com/xn/detail/1407416:Comment:1782081
Lots of fruits and veggies give me problems.  Like one glass of orange juice and I get insane mucus n sinus pressure.  More than if I drank a Coca-Cola or an energy drink.

[I think he posted this one too:]

Anyone Get Mucus from Orange Juice?? - Give it to me Raw
www.giveittomeraw.com/xn/detail/1407416:Comment:1569325
Mar 5, 2011 – I know for a fact I do from commercial orange juice and apple juice. Tonight I had a whole raw orange after sushi and I got immediate mucus

 
And here's some others that were easy to find with a little Google searching:

Mucus Forming Foods
Mark R
http://www.giveittomeraw.com/forum/topics/mucus-forming-foods-1
Which foods are mucus forming and which are not? I'm trying to keep my sinuses and nasal passages fairly mucus free and am tweaking my diet accordingly.

Dates ruined my day.
Posted by sugar nutrition on September 20, 2010 at 3:17pm in Meet & Greet
http://www.30bananasaday.com/forum/topics/dates-ruined-my-day?commentId=2684079%3AComment%3A724064
 I ate 10-15 zahidi dates yesterday and it seemed to clog my intestines the same way i imagine cooked food would if I were to eat some now. Also my nose was clogged shut. I got a really bad mucus problem already but at least 10-30 percent of the air that should pass through can leak/sneak its way in and out.
Reply by sugar nutrition on September 21, 2010 at 6:30pm
...The apple bananas here are locally grown and I would think theyd be the least chemically touched because farm to store is like a 1 hr or less drive.... Ate 5 today and the lymph nodes under the two corners of my jaw were swollen rock hard and even sore to the touch, loads of thick yellow mucus too- from locally grown apple bananas! ....

Mucous
Posted by GrapeNut  [a raw vegan who eats "lots of grapes, bananas, oranges, celery,spinach"] on February 7, 2012 at 3:50am in Beginners in a fruitarian/raw vegan lifestyle
http://www.30bananasaday.com/group/beginnersinafruitarianrawveganlifestyle/forum/topics/mucous?commentId=2684079%3AComment%3A2232294&groupId=2684079%3AGroup%3A369472
Ive been doing High fruit for about 3-4 days.  I got  case of dates and  ate about 20  of them yesterday.  I love them. This morning I made a smoothie of dates romaine and oranges.   NowI have  terrible  gas and mucous   coming out the other end.  Ive had detox before but this is pretty extreme.
  Reply by GrapeNut on February 7, 2012 at 3:56am
I usually get serious sinus problems. I'm guessing my body doesn't have a need for it anymore.

Reply by Jessica Brown on February 7, 2012 at 3:57am
Acid and sweet fruit are not a good combination there are some exceptions but dates and oranges are one of the worse as far an upset stomach goes. Also i have found when i have that many dates without them being blended with water it makes me feel like i just had a cooked food meal.

{{Warnings 
Oranges are citrus fruits with high acidic content. The citrus acid in orange juice can be irritating to your sore throat and may exacerbate your discomfort. Also, orange juice thickens the mucus in your body. Thickened mucus is more difficult to expel from your body, which is required for you to get better. Heavy mucus in your throat can also result in laryngitis, according to Harvard Medical School. In addition to a sore throat, laryngitis interferes with your ability to swallow and speak clearly. Other symptoms include coughing and post-nasal drip. (Is Orange Juice Good for a Sore Throat? Jan 5, 2011 | By Barbara Aufiero,
Read more: http://www.livestrong.com/article/350123-is-orange-juice-good-for-a-sore-throat/#ixzz1o3hvFNsE)}}

How come when you drink orange juice, you generate some mucus in your mouth afterwards?
Everytime i drink orange juice, i just want to hawk a loogie like 10 seconds later
how come?
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20091221233426AAbkEhd
Leanna89
its probably the sugars reacting with the acid in your mouth. either that, or the pulp.

Why do drinks like orange juice and coffee produce phlegm/mucous?
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20090621235935AAQjBeX

UNDERSTANDING AND TREATING SORE THROATS, Michael A. Klaper, M.D., http://www.vegsource.com/klaper/qa01.htm
Do not burn your inflamed throat membranes with ACID LIQUIDS! Avoid orange juice, citrus fruits, pineapple, cola drinks or any liquid which is acidic in nature until your throat is pain-free.

Orange Juice and Phlegm, Jade Tree Wellness Center Inc., http://www.jadetreewellness.com/var/4365/193141-Orange%20Juice%20Pros%20and%20Cons.pdf
In Chinese medical terms, orange juice tends to create “phlegm.” When we talk about phlegm, we don’t just mean mucous, but also energetic types of phlegm. Still, it is not that difficult to see this. Many people will tend to notice a feeling of phlegm or stickiness in the back of the throat after drinking orange juice. Ordinarily, the health benefits of orange juice far outweigh the small amount of phlegm that it tends to produce.

Orange juice & mucus?  by  seven_souls  7 year  2,442  Ask Barefoot
http://curezone.com/forums/am.asp?i=190889
I apologise if this has been asked before. When researching the orange juice fast I noted a lot of sources saying that oranges are mucus producing.

Respiratory Therapist/snotty nose/phlegm all my life
http://en.allexperts.com/q/Respiratory-Therapist-3303/snotty-nose-phlegm-life.htm
I am almost forty and I have had excess mucous all my life. Nothing has made any difference, although I've never known anything else so it is just normal to me. It gets worse whenever I drink a sweet drink. Dark red grape juice, red wine, beer, any soft drink, even pure orange juice or fresh carrot juice all have an IMMEDIATE effect. Within the first few gulps my body will start to produce phlegm at the back of my throat.

Obviously, I try to avoid those things, but it makes life pretty boring. I thought "it must be the sugar" however a sweet desert doesn't seem to have any effect.

So who is PP?

Please refer to discussion points in my signature, especially 2 and 3. Your comment motivated be to tweak them to try to make them clearer, but here are the originals, to show I have long thought this:

Discussion aids:
1) I do what works best for me, informed by science, personal experience, traditional knowledge and other tools, not pure emulation or "noble savage" notions.
2) YMMV. Don't imitate me--find what works for you. To each their own.
3) When I report positive or negative health results, it doesn't mean I think they apply to anyone else. I’m not prescribing.
4) It may improve discussion if you speak for you and I speak for me and neither of us tries to speak for the other.

It's interesting how if someone reports less than splending results from just one of Ray Peat's tips, it must be due to stress or other factors and can't possibly have anything to do with the food Ray recommended, but when Storm experiences benefits after changing to a more Peat-style diet from raw Paleo, no one challenges the notion that it must be because the more Peat-style diet is superior to true raw Paleo, at least for Storm. It seems like a double standard. I think it's this sort of thing that Tyler is referring to when he warns against guru worship. It's probably not intentional guru worship, but I can see how Tyler might get that impression.

As I mentioned before, I'm currently experimenting with some of the non-raw-Paleo things that Ray Peat happens to recommend, though not because I worship him as a guru or anything like that. I decided to try them independently of Ray Peat and there were plausible reasons to try them even without his recommendations. Also, just ignoring everything Ray Peat says just because he's a "guru" wouldn't make a lot of sense to me either.

[invisible]

You can easily remove orange juice from the diet and try other fruit. I would avoid any type of dried fruit.

Do you mean that you think that eating sugar will stop excess mucus? By sugar do you mean the refined table sugar, Coca Cola and OJ that Ray Peat recommends?

If a particular fruit or sugary product is causing a poor reaction regarding mucus, it is likely that it is not the sugar, but something else in the product. A dry mouth is a complication that occurs to some people when eating sugar, perhaps as a result of nutrient deficiency. A dry mouth with thick saliva could be mistaken as mucus.

The idea isn't necessarily that eating sugar controls mucus, but that controlling stress hormones and improving thyroid function will stop excess mucus. Eating sugar is a way to achieve those goals. Even simple pure white sugar should be able to be effective in the short term, but would lead to nutrient deficiencies if overused.

[PaleoPhil]

You can easily remove orange juice from the diet and try other fruit.

A very reasonable suggestion.

I would avoid any type of dried fruit.

Yes, I found that out the hard way. I was addicted to dried fruits for a while, and they did a number on me.

If a particular fruit or sugary product is causing a poor reaction regarding mucus, it is likely that it is not the sugar, but something else in the product.

Any idea what?

A dry mouth is a complication that occurs to some people when eating sugar, perhaps as a result of nutrient deficiency.

I do think that there's one or more malfunctions in my system that are not enabling me to digest carbs well. Any idea on what the nutrient deficiency is? I have identified some likely candidates (zinc and potassium and maybe magnesium), and take supplements (horrors!) to keep the levels up when I consume carbs. People tell me that carby foods like potassium-rich bananas cannot possibly contribute to deficiencies in minerals like zinc and potassium and accuse me of lying and so forth, but I tell you honestly that I experience it. I don't know how to convince people of this. It's very frustrating. I even make sure to eat only bananas that are nicely rotted, in accordance with the advice of Danny Roddy, DurianRider and other fruit eaters, but I still get foot cramps and other symptoms from them (though I suspect less than if I ate the fruits while unripe). Curses!

A dry mouth with thick saliva could be mistaken as mucus.

I know of no way to prove it to you, but I can assure you that I do get throat and nasal mucus/phlegm when I eat certain foods (though much less than I used to, thank goodness). I used to have to stand over a sink and spit for 5 minutes or so after drinking OJ (why I insisted on drinking OJ now makes no sense to me--I guess it was in part because I enjoyed it and more because I wanted to fit in, and in part because I didn't really think things through, I just acted). For whatever reason, almost no one will believe me on this, but I'm not lying. Honesty is one of my most treasured virtues. I would rather die than be very dishonest (aside from joking around).

The idea isn't necessarily that eating sugar controls mucus, but that controlling stress hormones and improving thyroid function will stop excess mucus. Eating sugar is a way to achieve those goals. Even simple pure white sugar should be able to be effective in the short term, but would lead to nutrient deficiencies if overused.

I don't notice any benefits whatsoever from pure white sugar, but I do notice some amazing benefits from raw fermented honey, though I suspect they may be largely due to the microbiota, because unfermented honey doesn't give me the same benefits. I suspect that I cannot digest well plain sugar on my own, and that the microbiota in fermented honey help me to digest the sugars. Someone who digests table sugar well might indeed experience benefits from it, but I do not appear to be one of those people. Besides, heated and refined table sugar wasn't part of our ancestors' diets, nor of any wild animal, yet many of them fared well, healthwise, so it seems likely that there are wild equivalents, such as wild honey.

Thanks so much for your input! It is highly treasured.

[invisible]

I don't notice any benefits whatsoever from pure white sugar, but I do notice some amazing benefits from raw fermented honey, though I suspect they may be largely due to the microbiota, because unfermented honey doesn't give me the same benefits. I suspect that I cannot digest well plain sugar on my own, and that the microbiota in fermented honey help me to digest the sugars. Someone who digests table sugar well might indeed experience benefits from it, but I do not appear to be one of those people. Besides, heated and refined table sugar wasn't part of our ancestors' diets, nor of any wild animal, yet many of them fared well, healthwise, so it seems likely that there are wild equivalents, such as wild honey.

From a human physiology perspective (yes, I know, this is speaking for everyone, but I do feel that there are some things that can be made as "across the board" statements, as we do share human anatomy) I think that pure white table sugar would be an extremely easy food to digest (hence its ability to quickly raise blood sugar) . My initial inclination is that the issue is something else - such as metabolism, hormones and not digestibility

In order to control the release of stress hormones, one would have to consume a significant amount of sugar. 50% of calories from sugar (preferably fruit) could be a starting point. I'm not aware what amount of sugar or honey you consume, but it won't have much effect if it's just a teaspoon here and there. It's recommended that one switch to a glucose burning metabolism, and avoid using fatty acids for fuel as much as possible.

[cherimoya_kid]

In order to control the release of stress hormones, one would have to consume a significant amount of sugar. 50% of calories from sugar (preferably fruit) could be a starting point. I'm not aware what amount of sugar or honey you consume, but it won't have much effect if it's just a teaspoon here and there. It's recommended that one switch to a glucose burning metabolism, and avoid using fatty acids for fuel as much as possible.

Sounds great in theory, but anybody who's done low-carb or zero-carb, and also tried very high-carb,  can tell you that it's way easier to get stressed out about things while eating a high-carb diet.  When you're burning fat for fuel, you tend to be much more even-tempered.

[cherimoya_kid]

Phil, if you're interested, I'd like to see the results of an experiment where you try

1. a teaspoonful of white table sugar

2. some fresh-squeezed high-Brix OJ

3. some fresh-squeezed LOW-Brix OJ

4. some fresh-squeezed OJ with plenty of the the white pith blended into it

I suspect we'd have a much better idea of what's going on after trying each of these several times, by themselves, on different days.

My first guess is that you're just having a reaction to some natural compound in the orange, not the sugar.  However, I could be very wrong.  Assuming that, I doubt the high-Brix OJ would make much of a difference, but I think it would be an interesting experiment.

[invisible]

Sounds great in theory, but anybody who's done low-carb or zero-carb, and also tried very high-carb,  can tell you that it's way easier to get stressed out about things while eating a high-carb diet.  When you're burning fat for fuel, you tend to be much more even-tempered.

Peat, myself, Danny Roddy, his blog followers, and a lot of ex low carbers tend to disagree, but there are of course different view points. Danny has looked at a lot of blood work as well. Rather than going by how even-tempered someone feels, testing cortisol and other hormone levels etc is a much more sound and precise way to measure and gauge the effects of a diet on stress responses. People can often unintentionally mislead themselves; I did.

[cherimoya_kid]

Peat, myself, Danny Roddy, his blog followers, and a lot of ex low carbers tend to disagree, but there are of course different view points. Danny has looked at a lot of blood work as well. Rather than going by how even-tempered someone feels, testing cortisol and other hormone levels etc is a much more sound and precise way to measure and gauge the effects of a diet on stress responses. People can often unintentionally mislead themselves; I did.

I seriously doubt that someone who feels much calmer on a particular diet has MORE stress hormones on that diet.  However, you're right, it deserves testing.

[PaleoPhil]

I have an interesting and encouraging development to report. When I checked my notes and saw that lemon juice in the past triggered plenty of mucus, whereas it doesn't today, I decided to test orange juice for the first time in quite a while and it generated very little mucus  (and it wasn't even fresh-squeezed!) --some nasal mucus, yes, but much less than it has in many years (though when I went out for some of my frequent running and playing in the outdoors, I did get more mucus than usual, as the combination of OJ plus slightly brisk weather plus exertion was apparently enough to generate significant mucus). Within a year or so of doing raw Paleo I have experienced a dramatic drop in mucus secretion from drinking OJ. Hoorah!

So please don't recommend OJ to all. I can report from experience that it did not do me well in the past, including my early Paleo and raw Paleo days, but it can be a useful indicator of where one is at on the spectrum of healing. Based on my experience, the stress/damage that OJ apparently can do to sensitive systems may not be a good idea, at least not until the person has been allowed to heal for a while.

And let me take this opportunity to thank the people of this forum for making it possible and helping me to achieve this fabulous progress!

[cherimoya_kid]

Good, Phil.  Of course, we still don't know if it was the sugar or not. 

[PaleoPhil]

I suspect there are multiple factors.

[invisible]

I suspect there are multiple factors.

Possible factors

1) You are of allergic to something in the orange juice.
2) The orange juice is not strained, the pulp and fiber are giving you problems.
3) The juice mixed with the saliva in the back of your throat and made it thick.
4) Low carbing has destroyed your thyroid and your ability to digest nutritious, healthy food.

[PaleoPhil]

1) You are of allergic to something in the orange juice.

That's possible, yes.

2) The orange juice is not strained, the pulp and fiber are giving you problems.

I've gotten mucus from both high pulp and no pulp OJ.

3) The juice mixed with the saliva in the back of your throat and made it thick.

This hypothesis doesn't explain why I get some mucus (and used to get a lot more), while other people get none

4) Low carbing has destroyed your thyroid and your ability to digest nutritious, healthy food.

the mucus effect occurred decades before I ever tried low carb. I don't ever remember not getting mucus from OJ, though it worsened in later years, so gradually that I didn't notice it until someone pointed it out to me.

[TylerDurden]

I seriously doubt that someone who feels much calmer on a particular diet has MORE stress hormones on that diet.  However, you're right, it d eserves testing.

   My experience was that I was very stressed out on diets extremely high in plant foods(95%+) and that I felt a LOT calmer on low-carb diets. That said, after I did raw, zero-carb for more than 2 weeks, I started getting far more stressed out.

[storm]

People can often unintentionally mislead themselves; I did.

You make a good point. People get so wrapped around that something is healthy even if its not working they continue to do it. They do it because it becomes who they are, the usually feel great after a few months than get worse overtime and don't even see it. They are so hooked in the community and what they have been preaching. I see this all time on vegan diet, very carb diets, raw diets, etc

[PaleoPhil]

For the Peatatarians who eat oats or rice, another alternative to cooking them is to soak and ferment them.

[Raw Kyle]

Ray Peat is also not necessarily a diet guru. Through his research he has highlighted what he believes to be causes of health issues in the human body. That's his starting point.

What research? Everyone ignored my post before that there are no scientific articles in the world with his name on them, even as a junior author (ie student).

[Raw Kyle]

Could someone please show me one?

[PaleoPhil]

When no one responds, that's how you know they've conceded defeat. Almost no one ever says, "Gee, you were right, you win, good job."

[Paleo Donk]

Peat also has no known age. He apparently finished his phd in 1972 making him at least mid 60s though he sounds like he's in his early 100's. I'm not sure anyone could identify him if he were in a lineup of fellow centenarians. 

[invisible]

When no one responds, that's how you know they've conceded defeat. Almost no one ever says, "Gee, you were right, you win, good job."

Or it could be the fact that I (and others) don't visit the forum daily, or that studies don't have to be personally conducted by Peat for one to say Peat has researched the topic. I'd say that people here are researching raw paleo diets, though certainly no scientific articles are being produced from the people here.

For the Peatatarians who eat oats or rice

I don't think those are Peat foods, or at least not to be eaten often.

[invisible]

Peat also has no known age. He apparently finished his phd in 1972 making him at least mid 60s though he sounds like he's in his early 100's. I'm not sure anyone could identify him if he were in a lineup of fellow centenarians.

He's apparently in his 80's.

[KD]

From what I gather, I'm pretty sure he's considered by his followers to be fringe + holding advanced degrees and scrutiny, and not put on a pedestal of a highly respected published scientist within academic circles. Kurt Harris mentioned something recently about them both being on PubMed.

but yeah Sisson, Kesser, AV, Minger, and Guyenet, totally discount those unpublished assholes too. Particulary since, what......99.9% of the medical/scientific establishment is poo-pooed by 99.9 % of raw foodists that leaves very litle breathing room for acceptable material done in an independent lab with zero agenda to consider.. oh well, at least we can assume if we leave out dairy and grains this will surely solve all health problems if we believe hard enough.


Also that Art De Vany guy, who is way outside of his area of expertise to have anything remotely of value to share...