PORKY

[rawlion]

I would be grateful if anyone could help me here with my dilemma. The thing is that I am not certain with my meat choices. So I need a kind of advice.

I’d like to start that I live in Ukraine. We don’t have the term “grass-fed meats” here. It is just non-existent. Don’t even mention the grass-fed or wild meats itself. The animals are well cared after and are fed a good mixed diet. It changes seasonally.

In general, I can get beef, pork, lamb, chicken and rabbit. Sometimes, goat, horse and different fowl are available. Cows, lambs and rabbits are mostly herbivorous, grains are not the part of their natural diet. Pigs are omnivorous, i.e. starches and grains are their natural forage. The distinction is clear and obvious.

The whole problem comes down to feeding issue. I know that wild meats are best, grass-fed come at second and natural grain fed at distant third. As I mentioned above, in my country the diet of animals is mixed one and varies seasonally. The question arises, what meat would be better, one that comes from animals fed on grains and little grass, whereas their natural diet is herbivorous, or one that is absolutely starch and grain fed, but comes from omnivorous animals?

You see, when I first started raw paleo diet, I decided that I wouldn’t eat pork meat because pigs are fed grains, corn, swill, potatoes and other domestic waste. Moreover, they are contained in pigsty for life and never see the light of the day. This decision was harsh, especially because until the age of 20 pork meat was the only that I ate. Sometimes I may have had some domestic chicken, but I NEVER consumed any beef, lamb etc. I was so used to the pork’s taste that initially it was rather hard to get used to the new flavours.

So yes, it was about two years ago when I tried beef and lamb for the first time in my life. I knew that cows were on mixed diet, composed mostly of beet-chips (a leftover from beets after sugar is extracted), grains, corn and some hay, but I was thinking that this meat was still better because cows graze in the season and eat grass when available. The situation with lambs and rabbits is a bit better, but not significantly.

Now I am not sure at all that the mentioned decision was right from the start. What do you think, if pigs are genetically adapted to eating such mixed diet, maybe their meat would be nutritionally superior to that which comes from cows, which are forced by circumstances to live off the forage, which is unnatural to them?

Some time ago I have found in the live-food group archives an interesting suggestion. A certain Daniel Kane claimed that his “blood chemistry indicated that he needed to eat turkey and pork and cut back on chicken and beef. He believed it was because all the raw beef was overactivating his adrenal glands and the pork contains Thresine (an important amino acid in adrenaline function).” He also said that “proponents of all-raw diets attributed his unsatiated appetite for beef to anemia, however, according to blood chemistry it was his body desperately trying to get the amino acids it needed from red meat, which it couldn’t, no matter how much he ate. Whatever Thresine, if any, is found in other raw meats is miniscule compared to pork or compared to its utilization in pork.”

It would be nice to know what you think in this regard.

[TylerDurden]

The animals least likely to be fed grains in a country where the notion of grassfed meat is nonexistent are lamb and horse. In Italy, a country where one can only find organic, free-range chicken and organic, free-range eggs and virtually no other organic foods(at least in my provincial area), I've found it best to either rely primarily on horsemeat(which is almost wholly grassfed- horses are only fed a few oats, and then not always, and otherwise left out to graze in the fields), and, to a much lesser extent, on rather expensive wildcaught seafood - the place is a tourist-trap which relies on affluent French tourists to visit their cheaper Italian markets, so they deliberately hike up the prices of seafood from the beginning of May till the beginning of October, in order to rip off the tourists.

I've eaten wild boar and can tell you that the taste is far superior to that of domesticated 100%-grainfed pigs. The natural diet of wild pigs only consists of a little grain not 100% grain, so I doubt Ukrainian pork is of good value(unless you have a garden somewhere big enough to handle a few pigs).

[rawlion]

You are right Geoff.

These local pigs are all domestically grown, i.e. they don’t come from rather big farms. As I said before, they eat mostly swill, potato peels, beets, squash, corn and everything else that grows in the garden. Grains compose only small part of their diet, if at all.

The main difference between the cows/lambs and pigs is that the former do eat some grass and roam in the season, when the latter are contained locked up forever. But I thought that if pigs are genetically adapted to such foods, they may derive greater benefit from it, be healthier (it is believed that grain fed herbivorous are prone to E.coli) and as a result have superior meat in terms of nutrition.

[TylerDurden]

Well, if pigs in the Ukraine really do have such a varied diet, then it should be fine to eat them.

[goodsamaritan]

From your description, beef, lamb and goat sound good.  Most probably fed grass.

I would go and investigate where the live animals are raised, how they are slaughtered, and how they are handled at the market.

For example, in my country, I have personally witnessed how the pork and beef industry work, how the slaughterhouses work, and how the butchers do their trade.  I know the scheduled time of slaughter of beef and pork slaughter is at 12 midnight and the carcass gets to market at 3 to 4am.  I usually purchase around 7 to 8am.

You might also look into fruit and vegetables. 

The shortcut way is to find people who are already in the "organic" mindset and get their contacts and connections so they can guide you.

[rawlion]

In general, grains are fed from 300 to 500 g per head of cattle daily and from two to two and a half kilo of hay per head daily. By estimate, one sheep for the year’s time requires 500 kg of hay (from legume and grain crops, motley grass etc.), 150 kg of straw, 300 kg of fodder root crops (beets, carrots, potatoes, cabbages, silage, pumpkins) and 50 kg of food concentrates (mixed fodder, oats, barley, corn). Percentage-wise during the stalled keeping of cattle (winter time) they require 35-40% legume and grain crops, 20-25% root crops and 40-45% concentrates. From early spring till late fall, as sheep is a pasturable animal, significantly increases the consumption of fresh green grass I suppose.

I live in the capital and all the meat comes from countryside, so I can only guess how animals are kept and slaughtered. These are the rough figures which I remember from my life in the village, as I was able to closely observe the process of growth, feeding and slaughtering of animals.

[Raw Kyle]

I would say that if the pigs and cows are given about the same diet that pigs would be better. It reads like the cows diet might be a little better though, with them getting a decent amount of grass? Other than that I don't know how to quantify the difference between them getting fresh air or being locked in a cage all the time in terms of the health quality of their meat.

You could always experiment, eating just pork for a couple of weeks or longer and then switching to beef and seeing which you enjoy more and feel healthier with.

Also what's the price difference, if any?

[goodsamaritan]

You could always experiment, eating just pork for a couple of weeks or longer and then switching to beef and seeing which you enjoy more and feel healthier with.

I concur.  I did this experiment myself.  I concluded the pork I got in my area sucks really bad.  I felt really bad.  Beef in my area is good.

[rawlion]

I would say that if the pigs and cows are given about the same diet that pigs would be better. It reads like the cows diet might be a little better though, with them getting a decent amount of grass? Other than that I don't know how to quantify the difference between them getting fresh air or being locked in a cage all the time in terms of the health quality of their meat.

You could always experiment, eating just pork for a couple of weeks or longer and then switching to beef and seeing which you enjoy more and feel healthier with.

Also what's the price difference, if any?

Cows usually get enough grass from spring till fall, but their diet is always supplied with other stiff which I mentioned before.

There is practically no difference in prices between pork meat and beef. This just lambs, rabbit and beef tongue which cost at least twice as much as regular pork or beef.

[rawlion]

I concur.  I did this experiment myself.  I concluded the pork I got in my area sucks really bad.  I felt really bad.  Beef in my area is good.

May I use your words? I concluded ALL MEATS I got in my area sucks really bad...

That is it, I just have to choose the lesser of evils...

[goodsamaritan]

May I use your words? I concluded ALL MEATS I got in my area sucks really bad...

That is it, I just have to choose the lesser of evils...

Does Cooked Paleo Diet make the meat any better?

Try raw ocean fish / sea food.  Try raw organic / fertilized eggs. 

[rawlion]

Well, to be honest, I don't have any problems taste-wise. It is just the issue of it being healthy or not.

There are no such recognized standards as organic, grass-fed etc. in my country. There is just food. It may be either of domestic origin or commercial.

There is still a big risk you may be cheated when you try to buy something of superior quality, aka domestic. Since there are no regulations, nobody is going to be responsible. The seller may convince you thousand of times that the eggs are fertile or dairy is clear from any additives, but, as practical experience shows, you cannot trust anybody.

I didn't mention seafood because it is simply not available.