Loose stools from Lex-style diet?

[sun_hunter]

Hi. My name is Jeff. I am new to posting on this forum, though I have been perusing the archives and journals for months now, educating myself on the way of eating raw. I have been following a Lex-style diet for about a month now; I eat only 2 lbs. 78% lean ground beef mixed with 0.5 lb. of the primal ground beef, and some beef suet or marrow thrown in for extra fat (All from Slanker's). I eat it all within usually about a 4 hour window, but if my schedule permits, I will eat it all in a 1-2 hour sitting.
    This diet has been very liberating. The intermittent fasting factor of the diet allows my mind to stay sharp and focused, and the hypoglycemia I was experiencing prior to zero-carb eating has practically vanished. I feel that my internal organs are finally receiving the nutrition they need to repair themselves from all of the damage that I am positive was done to them through the standard way of eating, i.e. eating all the time, wrong types of foods, combinations, chemicals, etc.; as well as following the traditional medical symptom-treating paradigm. However, as of about 2 weeks ago, I have had extremely loose stools. Virtually every time I go to the bathroom, it is diarrhea. Sometimes I experience stomach cramping that coerces me to take 5-6 bowel movements a day. I know that I did not develop IBS or something similar from this diet, so I am posting here for any suggestions to what might be causing this. I do have a few ideas.
    I have been leaving the concoction of meat and fat out at room temperature for about 7-10 hours everyday before I eat it. Maybe this is a little too intense for just beginning the diet, and my intestines are just not used to ingesting the level of bacteria that builds up as a result of this? I have had many digestive problems in the past, mainly from as stated above, eating combinations of food in large quantities that I know the body is not acclimated to consuming on a consistent basis. However, this problem was mainly chronic-constipation and severe stomach cramping. So, perhaps this loose stool problem is a result of my digestive system trying to restore homeostasis.
    Any input from experienced raw-carnivore dieters would be much appreciated. PaleoPhil and Lex, if you have time to respond, I would be much obliged. For now, I am going to only leave the meat out of the fridge for a couple of hours before I eat it and see if that makes a difference. Thank you for the support and to all who participate in this forum. This is truly a splendid outlet for facilitating self-experimentation to those looking for alternative explanations to the ways things are.
    Peace and Love, Jeff

[PaleoPhil]

Maybe this is a little too intense for just beginning the diet, and my intestines are just not used to ingesting the level of bacteria that builds up as a result of this?

Bless up, Jeff. I suppose it's possible, though I would be surprised by a dramatic difference. You could test it to find out, by leaving the meat in the fridge instead of out.

If you're eating a lot of fat, another possibility is that you're not "fat-adapted" yet and much of it is passing through you. I think that may be one reason why my stools loosened for me in the early weeks of doing raw ZC (which was a blessing because it normalized for a time the chronic constipation I had, before I became fat-adapted and it started worsening again). About what % of your intake is fat, would you say? Has your saliva become sweet at all (excess ketones produce a sweet taste in the saliva)?

Any dramatic dietary change can produce GI symptoms, so it could be just a matter of time for adaptation, but if you're frustrated you could also experiment with Paleo foods you ate in the past that you think may have helped your GI function, preferably one at a time so you can more easily discern what produces benefits.

I don't advocate that anyone eliminate most or all Paleo plant foods from their diet the way Lex is currently doing if it results in any longer-term problems, nor does he, to my knowledge (though a Lex-style diet turned out to be a good base for me to start from). So if it isn't working for you, I see no reason not to experiment with plant foods the way I have been doing. I haven't noticed significant problems from certain plant foods, despite being more sensitive to plant foods than most here.

[TylerDurden]

(I'm not an RZCer, but I have a few notions re the above)

First of all, I seriously doubt that leaving the raw meats out for a few hours more would make a difference. In fact, aging raw meats for days/weeks usually means the food gets predigested by the bacteria, so that digestion etc. is much easier as a result. When I eat "high-meat" only, my stools are almost nonexistent.

Also, I and a few others have noted that we had more frequent visits to the toilet after consuming any suet, with the stools turning yellow from all the suet expelled from the body. For some reason, suet seems to be an inferior fat that some of us just can't digest properly. Try just eating raw marrow and raw muscle-meat fat instead.

[PaleoPhil]

Oddly enough, suet seems to benefit me more than marrow, though most of it is harder and therefore probably harder to digest. I noticed some undigested suet bits in my stool early on, but not recently, except for the occasional bit of connective tissue. The suet I buy now is high quality, low in connective tissue, so I don't have to deal with a lot of that.

Suet didn't give me diarrhea, though, even early on. Also in contrast to several people here, I prefer to eat suet more than marrow, probably in part because suet makes me feel so good. I have to basically force myself to eat marrow, which is puzzling, because I know it's supposed to be yummy, according to both hunter gatherers and people here, and I buy both the suet and marrow from the same 100% grassfed farm. My guess is that suet is particularly rich in something my body has long-term deficiencies in. I don't get as much euphoria from suet now as I did early on, so whatever it is I may be missing, it seems to be gradually building up in my body, perhaps.

[cherimoya_kid]

Oddly enough, suet seems to benefit me more than marrow, though most of it is harder and therefore probably harder to digest. I noticed some undigested suet bits in my stool early on, but not recently, except for the occasional bit of connective tissue. The suet I buy now is high quality, low in connective tissue, so I don't have to deal with a lot of that.

Suet didn't give me diarrhea, though, even early on. Also in contrast to several people here, I prefer to eat suet more than marrow, probably in part because suet makes me feel so good. I have to basically force myself to eat marrow, which is puzzling, because I know it's supposed to be yummy, according to both hunter gatherers and people here, and I buy both the suet and marrow from the same 100% grassfed farm. My guess is that suet is particularly rich in something my body has long-term deficiencies in. I don't get as much euphoria from suet now as I did early on, so whatever it is I may be missing, it seems to be gradually building up in my body, perhaps.

Do you not even like the soft marrow from the femur? 

[PaleoPhil]

No, I like that even less, oddly enough. It's not for lack of wanting to like it and I know that others do. I actually prefer the firmer, drier, chewier nature of suet.

Incidentally, I've seen marrow of wild African animals and that looks somewhat different from even the soft marrow from the femur of domestic beef cattle. It looks more appealing--pure white and dry, not damp or bloody, and it holds together well, so that they can pull the whole thing out of a long bone, at least with the one or two animals I saw them doing this with on videos.

With all the praise of marrow I figured I'd prefer it by now, but I still don't.

[sun_hunter]

Hey, thanks for the responses guys!

So, from these posts, one would conclude that I am probably just not fat adapted yet. How long does this usually take do you think? I was eating an anti-candida Bee Wilder diet for a while. I ate mostly raw egg yolks, coconut oil, butter, and a little bit of cooked ground beef or chicken for about three months. This was seriously a mostly fat diet, probably 90% or so and I did not have frequent diarrhea, though, I was eating closer to 2000-2500 calories a day. I just calculated how much I eat now and it is closer to 4000 (about 77-8% from my calculations)! I had no idea. This might be a bit much? haha. If I stop adding suet or extra fat, I could get my total intake to around 3000 calories, and ~72% fat. I think I will do this and see if it makes a difference. This would also take care of Tyler's theory about suet being an inferior fat.

Also, PaleoPhil, I appreciate your suggestion to try eating plant foods too, but ultimately I like just eating a meat/organ diet right now because of its simplicity, i.e. the mono-eating philosophy. Oh, I should mention that I eat about 2 tsp. of celtic sea salt with my meat, but I have been ingesting that much salt since September.

As a side note, I really like marrow too, but I find that when I order it, it usually comes in one of two forms. The most common one has a chalky texture and is hard, much like suet; and the second becomes soft, almost liquid-y at room temperature. The latter is far superior to the first one! imo

[van]

So it does look like you've probably adapted to the fat amounts. You may want to look at how much protein your ingesting. Looks like a lot.  undigested protein is toxic and can cause irritation to the bowels.  And also, why so much to begin with.  My guess is that it was a big jump in protein from your experiments with Bee's suggestions. 

[PaleoPhil]

I think it took 4 weeks or so for me to become relatively fat adapted. Most people become fat adapted by 3 months, so that's a puzzler.

If you didn't have diarrhea on the Bee Wilder diet, why did you change it? Maybe you can find some mix between that and raw Paleo that won't give you diarrhea?

Also, PaleoPhil, I appreciate your suggestion to try eating plant foods too, but ultimately I like just eating a meat/organ diet right now because of its simplicity, i.e. the mono-eating philosophy. Oh, I should mention that I eat about 2 tsp. of celtic sea salt with my meat, but I have been ingesting that much salt since September.

I would be surprised if a little salt would cause diarrhea for most people. While Lex does a "monotonous" diet, he's doing well on it and he has said many times that if he develops problems on it he will change. If you continue to have problems longer term it may be worthwhile to try some changes one at a time to see if it helps at all. You know your own body better than anyone, so it's your judgement call.

As a side note, I really like marrow too, but I find that when I order it, it usually comes in one of two forms. The most common one has a chalky texture and is hard, much like suet; and the second becomes soft, almost liquid-y at room temperature. The latter is far superior to the first one! imo

Yeah, Tyler says the same thing. For some reason I like the soft marrow even less than the harder stuff, despite liking soft duck fat. I don't know why.

[sun_hunter]

Hey Van, I think you might be right about the level of proteins that I am consuming. I just went over Lex's calculated amounts of protein and fats when he did his 80/20 diet and he said he was consuming ~1.5 lbs. a day, 102 g protein, and 182g fat. I have been consuming about 2.5 lbs. a day, and 173g protein, and 233g fat. I am going to cut down to 2 lbs a day at about a ratio of 70/30, with 141g protein and 178g a fat. This will be a total reduction of calories by 700-1000. I will see if this makes a difference.

Honestly, I do not know why I started eating so much when I started this diet. I think I had the concept of the warrior diet in my head, in which the author states to "overeat" during that one meal a day. Also, I though the more the better I guess.

PaleoPhil, I was not feeling very well on Bee's diet. A diet of mainly egg yolks, coconut oil, and butter is rather disgusting. Also, I did not have the amount of energy I wish I could have. My levels of energy and alertness grew exponentially when I fist started this diet and have kind of tapered off since then. Also, I think I am pretty sensitive to dairy, even butter. I have much less mucous and bouts of my eyes tearing up and such since eating only meat/organs. I would also usually get dizzy and nauseous upon consuming my meals under Bee's regimen. True, it did not occur to me to eat only once a day, I was eating about 2-3 times a day and after about 5-6 hours I was starving and couldn't concentrate on anything until I ate. So, I think this is a much better fit for me.

[van]

great,  let us know how it works for you.  I'm curious.

[prowler]

With such a big protein load, I am wondering did you become  fat adapted or not? Maybe it would be useful to slow down protein to about 50-80 grams and check for spilling ketones after a few days.

[sun_hunter]

I better have become fat adapted. For the past six months or so I have not consumed more than 30 grams a carbs in any given day. haha.

I think I will actually cut my protein consumption down to about 110 g (this is 1 lbs. of high fat ground beef and 0.5 lbs. primal) and add extra fat to make up for the loss of calories. How would I go about 'checking for spilled ketones?"

[prowler]

Good idea!

Ketostix strips during protein restriction will help you figure our ketones availability for your body systems.

Also, fasting for a 1-2 days without side effects like lightheadedness would be a good indicator too.

I'am currently adapting at 0.8-1g protein per lean body mass with the intension to increase to 1.2-1.3 once my body is fully fat adapted (I'am still spilling ketones at moderate amounts, unfortunately).

Dmitry

[sun_hunter]

ok. thanks prowler. I will look into that. maybe i can pick up some ketostix at work.

how long have you been trying to adapt to a high fat diet?

[prowler]

I was LC for about 2 years (30-100G carbs/day) and went zero carb Feb 01/2012 for the purpose to finally become keto-adapted instead of keto-adjusted

[HIT_it_RAW]

The huge amount of salt you eat is probably  the problem. Salt pulls water into the intestines. I would dramatically reduce or preferably remove it entirely for a few days, see what happens. I cannot garantee it will work off course but i'm fairly confident it will.

I know you have been eating that much salt for longer. I think your body absorbed the salt before. You're body has had so much that at some point it stopped absorbing the salt leaving it in the intestines where it started pulling water.

[HIT_it_RAW]

@paleophil
I have the same preference for suet. I eat marrow(dry kind) but don't enjoy it. The soft kind I find rather disgusting.

[PaleoPhil]

Thanks for letting me know I'm not the only one, Hit_it_Raw.

[sun_hunter]

Hey thanks for all of the replies guys. I have been really busy lately; I work and go to school full-time. The diarrhea went away pretty much the day after I cut down my meat (and subsequently protein) intake. I do not think it was due to the salt, but thank you for the suggestion hititraw.  I am still consuming a teaspoon a day with my meat and organ mix and have not had any problems.

However, I am worried that I have still not adapted to high-fat diet yet, and I've been pursuing this for about six months now. I had so much energy when I was eating that much protein. I was consuming about 250 grams a day, which I now know is way, way too much. Now that I have diminished down to about 150  grams a day, I feel weaker, but it is nice to not have to worry about being close to a bathroom 24/7. Also, I ran out of suet so I also have been running on about only 100 grams of fat a day. I am hoping it is this low fat intake which is causing the lack of energy and the lowered protein intake, for if it is the latter than that would suggest that I am not fat-adapted; If I was consuming 250 grams a day and was converting 58% to glucose, then I would have had 150 grams of glucose a day, which is enough I think to keep you out of ketosis and not encourage fat adaptation. Any responses to my analysis of what was going on whould be greatly appreciated. Thanks