shaolin monks

[svrn]

How do we explain these people in relation to their diet? Is it the fact that they have incredible control of their minds literally spend their entire life on nothing but training?

Shaolin Kung Fu (exploding the meat myth)

[cherimoya_kid]

Before they became Buddhist, the Chinese had been eating a rice-and-veggies diet for thousands of years.  The amount of meat they were eating during that time was very, very small.  As a result, they had many generations to gradually adapt to it.  One of the adaptations is a larger pancreas and salivary glands to help digest all the starch.

[svrn]

But shouldn't the cooked foods be killing them either way?

[Projectile Vomit]

There are a lot of people on this website who believe that cooked foods kill. I personally think this is silly. There are people who live to be over 100 years old and live healthy lives eating cooked foods. What more proof is needed to show that cooked food isn't necessarily harmful? Industrially processed Franken-foods, well now that's a different issue...

[TylerDurden]

What more proof is needed that cooked food is harmful than the fact that most people on cooked diets end up with appalling, nasty health-problems such as alzheimer's etc., despite not eating frankenfoods? People tend to forget that people in the Middle-Ages suffered from appalling health-problems and died young etc., despite not eating any frankenfoods.

Now, it is reasonable to state that modern medicine can, to some extent, help people to live longer via drugs, surgery, lowered stress-levels etc., but these are not "healthy" per se, they just, to a limited extent, make up for the fact that cooked foods are harmful.

[superja]

Another thing to note is that many people who are currently living to be very old in my area, would have began their lives on farms eating plenty of raw dairy, wild meat that grazed on land free of pesticides, in an environment free of man-made chemicals. Starting one's life in such a condition has to be beneficial.

[raw-al]

Another thing to note is that many people who are currently living to be very old in my area, would have began their lives on farms eating plenty of raw dairy, wild meat that grazed on land free of pesticides, in an environment free of man-made chemicals. Starting one's life in such a condition has to be beneficial.

The oldest person I knew was in that category. He grew up on a farm. He used to walk to work at incredibly high speed over a distance of probably 5 miles.

I think diet is part of the issue but obviously these young lads were in peak physical as well as spiritual condition.

Thanks for this one Tyler.

[PaleoPhil]

What more proof is needed that cooked food is harmful than the fact that most people on cooked diets end up with appalling, nasty health-problems such as alzheimer's etc., despite not eating frankenfoods?

You mean like this 80 year old Shaolin monk?
80 year old shaolin monk doing gymnastics at the 2009 TCAAT Wushu tournament.
Apologies about the chair.

[cherimoya_kid]

Cooked food, like almost anything, harms some people more than others.

However, I think cooking food is the main reason humans rarely live to 120, even in pretty ideal conditions.  For some people grains/dairy are also significant life-shorteners, I am guessing.

Environmental toxins and poor-quality livestock-feeding are also part of the problem, in some cases more than others. But yeah, I think the single biggest contributor is cooking, especially excessive cooking.

I would also say that low Brix and poor quality soil also make a fairly big difference too.

Phil, it is not at all fair to post that video as if it somehow wins the argument.  That monk probably eats a very simple diet, not heavily cooked, and has been doing health practices, healing herbs, etc. most of his life. Not only that, he may have some genetic adaptations that give him good health into old age.  Come on, man, you're better than that.

[raw-al]

Sedentary life is what does it.

[PaleoPhil]

Phil, it is not at all fair to post that video as if it somehow wins the argument.

And it's not at all fair to suggest that I was trying to imply that when that thought didn't cross my mind. All I did was ask a question about something that doesn't appear to fit neatly into Tyler's model.

That monk probably eats a very simple diet, not heavily cooked, and has been doing health practices, healing herbs, etc. most of his life. Not only that, he may have some genetic adaptations that give him good health into old age.

Where did I say otherwise? You've apparently read WAY more into that video than I ever dreamed, much less intended.

You made some guesses as to why and how that monk doesn't seem to fit Tyler's model. Your guesses may or may not be right, but at least the video and my question seem to have helped you think about why and how that monk doesn't fit.

I eat a high raw diet myself, so no one has to convince me about the benefits of raw, but don't you think it's also possible to go overboard in attributing harm to cooking or benefits to rawness? Aren't there other potential factors and gradations of harm/benefit to consider? Isn't it possible that there's an ounce of truth in what Eric said?

[TylerDurden]

CK is quite right. Showing one example is merely a case of an exception proving the rule that cooked foods are harmful.

In the case of this monk, a sedentary life would have helped, along with considerable training. I mean I have heard of 80-year-olds in one study who regained the muscle-mass they had at the age of 40 solely through weight-lifting, for example. Plus, there is the issue of mind over matter. I recall Tony Robbins in one book mention how a particularly famous pianist had developed very severe arthritis which cripples his hands completely so that he could barely move his fingers - however,  when the musician was placed in front of a piano, his fingers would suddenly dance around the keys, making it seem as though he had no such problems.

There are other issues. A Buddhist-type monk would usually be eating a largely cooked vegetarian diet, and I have pointed out many times, via studies, that cooked plant foods produce far fewer heat-created toxins than cooked animal foods. Plus, I have also cited studies which showed that people who exercised or fasted a lot(which is what those monks all do regularly) also had their levels of advanced glycation end products(a heat-created toxin derived from cooking) reduced as a result.

Plus, without a medical test, we don't know whether his liver, for example, is about to conk out, or whatever.

[PaleoPhil]

I have pointed out many times, via studies, that cooked plant foods produce far fewer heat-created toxins than cooked animal foods. Plus, I have also cited studies which showed that people who exercised or fasted a lot(which is what those monks all do regularly) also had their levels of advanced glycation end products(a heat-created toxin derived from cooking) reduced as a result.

Thanks for answering my question about gradations. In other words, there's a continuum of harm with cooking, rather than all cooked foods being pure poison.

[goodsamaritan]

My good friend Sifu Jen Sam is a kung fu master and did those monk things and plans to live a very very long time.  He is essentially a raw paleo dieter.  Because not only is he a kung fu master, he is a well accomplished holistic healer.  And he knows raw food / raw paleo diet is the best diet.

Tai Chi Form Tong Gi Kun - Warming up the joints by Sifu Sam

Sifu is not vegetarian at all.

He enjoys with me raw shrimp, raw clams, raw oysters, raw fish.

And he eats very little.  And fasts regularly.

And he does get laid quite often.

[cherimoya_kid]

I eat a high raw diet myself, so no one has to convince me about the benefits of raw, but don't you think it's also possible to go overboard in attributing harm to cooking or benefits to rawness? Aren't there other potential factors and gradations of harm/benefit to consider? Isn't it possible that there's an ounce of truth in what Eric said?

Sure, but it's a slippery slope.  People are addicted, and lie to themselves "well, one more taco won't kill me", etc.. and so forth. 

I'm not saying that's true in your case or mine, but a lot of people are weak-willed and self-indulgent, as well as having addictive tendencies.

[Löwenherz]

What more proof is needed that cooked food is harmful than the fact that most people on cooked diets end up with appalling, nasty health-problems such as alzheimer's etc., despite not eating frankenfoods?

Therefore I'm happy that I got sick from "healthy" cooked foods at early age.

Löwenherz

[PaleoPhil]

Sure, but it's a slippery slope.  People are addicted, and lie to themselves "well, one more taco won't kill me", etc.. and so forth.

It's also a slippery slope in the other direction to the extreme of acting like the slightest bit of cooked is poison. I'm not saying anyone is necessarily doing that, just that I read other diet/health forums/blogs and some people at those other sites report perceiving this from raw Paleos and super-strict cooked Paleos and I can see at times how they would get that impression. When we tilt too far that way I suspect we turn off potential newbies and influential people. I know the super strict comments are well intentioned, but I think they unintentionally may backfire at times.

I could be wrong, of course, but when I first joined this forum I recall being a bit turned off by some of the more extravagant or quackish unsupported claims, extreme criticisms of even traditional cooked foods/diets (including cooked Paleo), and other outlandish comments and finding Lex's very reasonable journal to be one of the most enticing parts of the forum (and it's the main reason I joined). Even though Lex's approach is super-restrictive, I've never seen him suggest or even seem to imply without evidence that the foods and cooking techniques he avoids are all pure poison, or that there's only one right way for everyone, or that his experience is hard evidence that applies to the whole human race. He seems to strike about the right rhetorical balance, and I say that even though I disagree with him on some points.

I'm not saying that's true in your case or mine, but a lot of people are weak-willed and self-indulgent, as well as having addictive tendencies.

Sure and I of course disagree with the critics who say that raw Paleo and even cooked Paleo is more restrictive than necessary for anyone. Some people like me need to be more strict than most to avoid negative health symptoms and if someone wants to eat a super-optimal diet and the health benefits and other positives from it outweigh any negatives, I don't see why they shouldn't do it.

[TylerDurden]

It all depends on the person.Many people find that cooked-palaeodiets do not help them at all re regaining health. I am one such person. Indeed, I am honest enough to admit that raw vegan diets were more helpful as regards my health than cooked, palaeolithic diets.

[PaleoPhil]

Agreed.

[Raw Kyle]

What more proof is needed that cooked food is harmful than the fact that most people on cooked diets end up with appalling, nasty health-problems such as alzheimer's etc., despite not eating frankenfoods?

I think it would be a mental exercise to figure out what kinds of things you couldn't prove with that type of logic.

[Raw Kyle]

My good friend Sifu Jen Sam is a kung fu master and did those monk things and plans to live a very very long time.

He does all that crazy monk s%$t? I wish I had kung fu parties at my place.

[cherimoya_kid]

It's also a slippery slope in the other direction to the extreme of acting like the slightest bit of cooked is poison. I'm not saying anyone is necessarily doing that, just that I read other diet/health forums/blogs and some people at those other sites report perceiving this from raw Paleos and super-strict cooked Paleos and I can see at times how they would get that impression. When we tilt too far that way I suspect we turn off potential newbies and influential people. I know the super strict comments are well intentioned, but I think they unintentionally may backfire at times.

"You can please all of the people some of the time, or some of the people all of the time...but you can't please all of the people, all of the time."--John Lydgate

ROFL

[svrn]

I wasnt on a bad or chemically diet at all before I got sick. I was 100 percent organic for at least a year before I got sick and started doing raw paleo. Going raw is what began to reverse my problems. After 4 months I still have some pain but compared to the pain I was feeling before which would regularly keep me up at night regularly, I am improved by a huge extent and Im sure I will reach 100 percent health or almost eventually. So from personal experience, I know that being healthy isnt just about not eating chemicals because I wasnt doing that and I still got fucked up, as soon as I went raw it reversed.

This almost leads me to believe the health and extreme vibrancy of these monks must come from extremely high level of spiritual and mental strength which i suppose translates into perfect health. Healing on a quantum physics level perhaps. Theres nothing else which can explain these guys to me since based on my experience all that rice really should have a highly damaging effect on them.

It must be the intense spiritual practice and highly trained mind.

[goodsamaritan]

I wasnt on a bad or chemically diet at all before I got sick. I was 100 percent organic for at least a year before I got sick and started doing raw paleo. Going raw is what began to reverse my problems. After 4 months I still have some pain but compared to the pain I was feeling before which would regularly keep me up at night regularly, I am improved by a huge extent and Im sure I will reach 100 percent health or almost eventually. So from personal experience, I know that being healthy isnt just about not eating chemicals because I wasnt doing that and I still got fucked up, as soon as I went raw it reversed.

This almost leads me to believe the health and extreme vibrancy of these monks must come from extremely high level of spiritual and mental strength which i suppose translates into perfect health. Healing on a quantum physics level perhaps. Theres nothing else which can explain these guys to me since based on my experience all that rice really should have a highly damaging effect on them.

It must be the intense spiritual practice and highly trained mind.

In the video it also says that being a monk is about attrition too.
Some are monk material and some are not.

[cherimoya_kid]

Theres nothing else which can explain these guys to me since based on my experience all that rice really should have a highly damaging effect on them.

It must be the intense spiritual practice and highly trained mind.

From what I've read, East Asians have enlarged pancreas and salivary glands, to help them digest all that starch.