Would Any Raw Vegans Do Better on Cooked Paleo?

[PaleoPhil]

By standard cooked Paleo/Primal diet, I'm thinking along the lines of Mark Sisson, Loren Cordain, Ray Audette, Robb Wolf, Kurt Harris, Stephan Guyenet, Paul Jaminet, Chris Kresser, etc. Whichever you think is healthiest.

[jessica]

http://frankgiglio.net/

i worked at a raw vegan low glycemic jibbajabba farm with this kid when he was running ultra marathons on bananas alone.......now he eats cooked paleo and seems all the healthier and more grounded for it......i know for myself i would much rather eat cooked paleo over vegan any day

[cherimoya_kid]

How cooked?  What foods are eaten before and after? 

If someone is eating the 80/10/10 diet and having basically nothing but grocery-store bananas and low Brix greens, and they start including some lightly steamed wild-caught fish/shellfish, and/or some grassfed organ meats (and for some people, grassfed raw dairy) then yes, nearly always.

[TylerDurden]

The poll is all wrong. The option of "little" and "very little" should have been added as well.

It all depends on how long someone has been raw vegan. I mean, someone who has been only 6 months on raw vegan diets(not 80-10-10 presumably) would very likely feel worse off on a cooked, palaeolithic diet.

[PaleoPhil]

How cooked?  What foods are eaten before and after? 

The cooking types and foods common to the popular Paleo diets that raw vegans would be most likely to adopt (such as those I listed).

The time frame would also be whatever time frame raw vegans would likely make the switch at. I'm talking real world actuality rather than theoretical ideals/possibilities.

I don't understand the "all wrong" comment. The level of detail seems sufficient for such a small sample size. I doubt adding more levels would tell us much more.

[cherimoya_kid]

I think a lot depends on the quality of the meat and seafood, and how heavily it is cooked.  Also, the quality of the raw vegan diet, and exactly what foods are being eaten, makes a biiiig difference.

I'm speaking as a former raw vegan and 80/10/10er, Phil.  You are kind of a noob to that world, so I don't expect you to have as much awareness of all the possible factors that go into the bottom line of how well someone does on a raw vegan diet.

Are the eating nuts and seeds?  Are they digesting them well?  How high-quality/high-Brix are the fruits/veggies they eat?  How ripe is it?  Are they taking Terramin or dolomite, or some other calcium/magnesium/trace-mineral supplement?

How long have they been doing raw vegan?  How deficient in protein/B-12/fat are they?

These really are the big questions.  I've seen raw vegans run the gamut from some of the healthiest people I know, to some of the sicker ones.

[PaleoPhil]

I think a lot depends on ....

If it depends on what the individual does, then that sounds like your answer would be either some, 50/50 or many. So all I'm asking for is your rough guestimate of about what proportion of raw vegans do better on cooked Paleo when they switch. It sounds like you're still talking about hypotheticals and individual details, rather than a rough overall sense of what's actually happening to actual raw vegans, about whom you state that you know more than me, which means you could answer all your questions better than I could (which is why I'm asking the question). I'll change the title from "Would Any Raw Vegans Do Better on Cooked Paleo?" to "Do (or would) Any Raw Vegans Do Better on Cooked Paleo?" to try to make that clearer.

Because I'm a relative noob about raw vegans (though maybe not as much as you think, given my participation at the Give It To Me Raw vegan forum and all the wonderful info that Dorothy filled me in on there), that's why I wanted to do this poll to get a better sense from others, and then maybe do some searching to see if I can find any examples of raw vegans who switched to cooked or partly-cooked Paleo. I seem to recall reading about some in the past, and perhaps I'll look for some interesting ex-cooked vegan/vegetarian examples too, and maybe ask the same basic question at other different sorts of forums.

If we have any ex vegan cooked/semi-cooked Paleos here, your input about how you're doing on it vs. raw vegan would also be interesting.

These really are the big questions.  I've seen raw vegans run the gamut from some of the healthiest people I know, to some of the sicker ones.

Right, use those folks you're familiar with to help you in filling out the poll. I'm not asking for exact percentages or numbers, just your rough estimate based on what you know. This is a "big picture" poll, not a detailed analysis. This is the starting point of my research--though feel free to offer any individual stories you know about, or to discuss why you made your poll choice, if you wish. The more info, the better. I'm seeking first to understand before I seek to be understood.

Those who don't know any raw vegans will need to rely on their best guess if they want to participate, which is why I originally gave the poll a hypothetical type title, but that seems to have given the wrong impression to those in the know. Those who DO know raw vegans can of course use that knowledge in filling it out.

[PaleoPhil]

Just realized that my wording was a bit imbalanced at the ends--none on one end vs. most or all on the other end. Maybe that's what Tyler was reacting to. I corrected it. The poll allows you to change your vote if you wish.

[There were 3 most or all votes at the time of the switch, now down to 2, so those 2 votes might have been intended to be "Many" votes" instead of "All or nearly all".]

[aLptHW4k4y]

Probably most of them. Nuts seem like the only option as a protein source, and they are pretty damn hard to digest.

For me the limit on nuts is something like 60-70g, before I get diarrhea. Even with less than that and a lot of chewing they still don't seem to digest well, nor does grounding, blending, etc. help much. So on a vegan diet I'd be a skeleton pretty fast, due to lack of protein and calories. Unless I invest a lot of time in sprouting and basically spend every day worrying about food.

[cherimoya_kid]

Well, If I have to ballpark a figure, I'd say 50% of raw vegans in their first year of raw veganism would feel better on cooked Paleo.  At 2-3 years, I'd say it's more like 60-70%.  At the 5 year mark, 80-90%.

Majorly rough numbers, based entirely on the raw vegans I've known IRL and online.

[spitfiredd1]

Well, If I have to ballpark a figure, I'd say 50% of raw vegans in their first year of raw veganism would feel better on cooked Paleo.  At 2-3 years, I'd say it's more like 60-70%.  At the 5 year mark, 80-90%.

Majorly rough numbers, based entirely on the raw vegans I've known IRL and online.

I think if nothing else ALOT of raw vegans would benefit from taking a little krill oil or cod liver oil.  I've talked to a lot of vegans and ex-vegans that saw a dramatic change when they added fish or fish oils to their diet.

[cherimoya_kid]

I think if nothing else ALOT of raw vegans would benefit from taking a little krill oil or cod liver oil.  I've talked to a lot of vegans and ex-vegans that saw a dramatic change when they added fish or fish oils to their diet.

I think that's mainly because fish live in such a mineral-rich environment.  I think the fat of land animals can be as good, but they'd have to be eating a diet of similar quality as fish.  Few soils are that rich.

[PaleoPhil]

It's just an online "Diet Wars" poll, so it doesn't mean a lot, but for what it's worth, Cordain's cooked Paleo Diet book beat out a raw vegan book, and a cooked near-Paleo book (Fit2Fat2Fit) beat Cordain's book to win:
http://ebookstore.sony.com/diet/?in_merch=MainPromo_DietWars

[cherimoya_kid]

It's just an online "Diet Wars" poll, so it doesn't mean a lot, but for what it's worth, Cordain's cooked Paleo Diet book beat out a raw vegan book, and a cooked near-Paleo book (Fit2Fat2Fit) beat Cordain's book to win:
http://ebookstore.sony.com/diet/?in_merch=MainPromo_DietWars

Not surprising.  The general population is able to see that a paleo diet is superior to a vegan diet.  They're not COMPLETELY stupid, just ignorant and addicted to grains/sugar/dairy.

[Chris]

I voted for: All, or nearly all. I think meat is too important to omit from one's diet, even if it's cooked. Fish/eggs would be a much better choice for raw vegans. IMO

[cherimoya_kid]

I voted for: All, or nearly all. I think meat is too important to omit from one's diet, even if it's cooked. Fish/eggs would be a much better choice for raw vegans. IMO

I don't see any difference between lightly-steamed meat/fish and raw meat/fish, EXCEPT for the lack of bacteria.  The lack of bacteria in cooked meat is not good for your immune system. 

HEAVILY-cooked meat, OTOH, is pretty bad, depending on just how heavily-cooked it is.