Eat better than a caveman ?

[TylerDurden]

I have also been frustrated at how often I have been denied any organ-meats from farms. As regards faeces-consumption, there are numerous reasons as to why animals eat them:- elephants need the bacteria in the faeces in order to properly digest some of the foods they eat, rabbits need to have their food pass for the second time  through their digestive system before it can be properly digested in full, while other species use faeces to hide their own body-scent from predators or use other animals' faeces in order to track them down via smell.

[cherimoya_kid]

 It seems like most of the mainstream paleo gurus other than AV may think that maggot meat is a bit too extreme.

Which is funny, considering how much fermented meat/fish many tribes ate in the past, and still do. The Eskimos are quite serious when they talk about the value of high meat/fish.  I eat high fish pretty regularly, and I definitely think it helps me stay warm in cold weather, and improves my digestion.

I do think a few people do better on completely un-fermented foods, because of allergic reactions to fementation by-products, but most people really would be healthier if they ate  more fermented raw food regularly.

[jessica]

i permanently borrowed a really excellent book from the library for one of my friends, its bill mollison's (super famous(to me?) permaculture guy) guide to human fermentation i think is the title, i has hundreds of recipes to ferment all kinds of grains, meats, organs, eggs, fish, pretty much fermenting and preserving all pieces and parts of many an animal

[KD]

and don't forget how eating special fungus in domestic cattle shit rapidly increased our human intelligence.... !

again I joke. sorta.

[zeno]

I would like to thank the creator of this thread because I had not heard of Matt Stone nor such criticisms of the Paleo Diet. After researching more of Stone's opinions I've come to realize there is plenty of value for people such as I who have been struggling with this diet and because of stubbornness I have not been able to realize that I have been starving myself.

Although on 180 Health Stone's writing is a bit sensationalist and evasive (he writes a whole bunch without offering sensible tactics), his guest posts on other websites are much more direct and informative. For those (such as myself) who have a low basal temperature due to starvation, Stone has simple suggestions:

1. Eat as much nutritious food as you can every day. Emphasize the more calorie-dense unrefined carbohydrates like root vegetables, fruit, and grains in particular, but also eat a satisfying amount of meat, fat, dairy products (milk is incredible for body temperature), and whatever else that you find enjoyable. But keep it as nutritious and unprocessed as possible.

2. Eat beyond appetite. This is key. Eating more than you want to eat is what forces your body to get out of its low metabolism rut.

3. Go at least 12 hours straight per day without food – you don’t want to be overeating for more than half the day. So if you eat dinner at 7pm, have breakfast at 7am. I believe this practice can make the body more responsive to the hormone leptin, probably the most important hormone in fertility (because it raises thyroid and progesterone).

4. Get as much sleep as possible. Sleep is an incredibly powerful tool for raising metabolism.

5. Avoid vigorous exercise. This is not a permanent recommendation obviously. You can resume getting more vigorous exercise once your body temperature is fully restored.

6. Emphasize saturated fats over unsaturated fats. Dairy products, red meat, and coconut products are the best source of dietary saturated fats. You should eat these preferentially over nuts, seeds, vegetable oils, avocado, and other plant fats – as well as pork and poultry, when possible.

7. De-stress. While eating a lot, sleeping a lot, and avoiding excessive exercise is inherently de-stressing, it also pays to spend time doing something that you find leisurely or enjoyable and mentally and physically relaxing, which is highly individual. Massage and sunbathing would be my two personal favorites!

A diet low in carbohydrates did not work for Stone and may not work for several people, however (as KD points out) some may actually thrive on this diet, as KD and Sabertooth both demonstrate.

I, for one, have had a terrible time during my experimentation with diet because it has lead to an even greater starvation than before. Whereas before I was starving myself of animal foods (while I was a vegetarian), I'm now starving myself of a list of other things as I continue to mow on pound after pound of ground beef and raw eggs. Even after eating the entirety of several animals (such as Sabertooth recommends), I still wasn't able to satisfy some deep hunger--a great sign of starvation.

I second KD's opinion, quoted here:

My guess is, a fairer view of what he says is if you fall below the line of what are obvious indicators of poor health, your purism, naturalism, localism, spiritualism, etc... Isnt working. Period. The key problem is, no matter how impossible it is to actually diagree with that, people will simply choose to disagree with that and just cite more of their dogmas and swear all sorts of reasons why others are wrong. But ultimately he's like every other diet, film, or social critic. He - like most people- has some masive bias against diets that did not work for him, and thus "don't work" (sound familiar?) for anyone even when they do. This part is totally false, if your actual version of paleo/healthy eating fulfills your known needs in actual analysis, and gives optimal results, or at least fares better than others without excuses.

[cherimoya_kid]

I think you probably were fat-starved.  Also, you may not have been getting enough minerals. Eating enough fat and minerals (like calcium and magnesium from natural sources) is very good for sating the appetite.

[KD]

Seems more now like 'savage-y' caveman vs.  'pansey' caveman convo above, but it is - for me - about not cutting these corners on nutrition or lifestyle, or eating certain diets due to shoulds. In fairness, I don't think people absolutely require organ meats or glands or even exercise or know how to skin an animal, if what they do actualy improves their health, which is the whole point really. Paleo diets are already technically restrictive though in terms of what we have access to today to provide nutrition (in some shape or form :/) and manipulate our health. No matter how crazy that sounds to some, its true albeit with more unknowns, so picking reliable stuff rooted in nature can be a good move. 'Diets' are fine in my book as long as people don't think their decisions in the very abstract save their souls (health, whatever), and ignore other realities in themselves, or others' contradicting info based solely on those principles.

!?

Similarly, even if the paleo diet since proto-humans was confirmed to be LC, I wouldn't see that as a reason per se to eat LC...due to ^. A lot of people have a lot of info and reasons to not eat LC, including antho stuff. Just not alot of folks around in nature that eat the way people wish they did to rationalize their schtick... Although, the Inuits who actually ate glands and such didn't have problems people associate with LC, which also can occur on HC raw or otherwise..to bring it full circle.

So, there is tons of evidence against neolithic and modern stuff, but you still need to look at how various things work out today or don't work for you or in others, whether they themselves are old things or new.

as for sex, I can say that when doing LC or 'beyond' my way, this has caused 0 cases of impotence, but I've noticed different shifts in quality of sex doing differnt things diet-wise which I havn't set yet what is what. Who knows though as i've been involved in monogamy, and that is anti-paleo as i've learned on this website, so who can really say.

Seems like every last scrap of flesh, connective tissue, skin, etc has been put to good use!

I wrote a bunch of stuff on this, but somehow I got talking about Aryans in pre-civ India in the forests, and dairy products, and it was like three pages long.

[CitrusHigh]

I wrote a bunch of stuff on this, but somehow I got talking about Aryans in pre-civ India in the forests, and dairy products, and it was like three pages long.

Lol, the more the merrier!

Also yeah zeno, you're only eating muscle meats? Whether or not anyone else agrees, I have found it pretty much essential to get those quality organs if I'm consuming mostly meats. I have a pretty varied diet typically. But when it is mostly flesh, I've got to have the organs to be feeling satiated.

[jessica]

and don't forget how eating special fungus in domestic cattle shit rapidly increased our human intelligence.... !

again I joke. sorta.

have you been reading my journal? honestly i do believe this, that these are my teachers and have helped me on some great emotional, spiritual, social and instinctual(necessary for survival!) levels.  some of us are perhaps more sensitive, although not to such satirical depths, to being lost in this super civilized world.  ive never done well in most of the institutions we are supposed to try and live through, but have thrived in nature and by being honest to my own human nature. 

[CitrusHigh]

KD's a bit cynical J, probably a byproduct of excessive exposure to Raw Paleo Dogma, or dietary/spiritual dogma in general.

But the bottom line is what works for you right. And mushrooms shook me violently out of my sheeple stupor. That is all the proof I need of their benefit. Obviously lots of people take mushrooms or other entheogens and don't have life changing experiences, or don't really seem to change at all. But then again, they probably didn't have a terrifying, depths of hell experience, like some of us for which this was the result of such consumption.

My first mushroom experience was an accidental high dose of P. cyanescens all by my lonesome at age 17. And I have not been the same since. It truly was an awakening, and caused an !extreme! shift in the way I looked at the world. Has played a huge part in shaping who I am and how I perceive the world.

The recharge I felt afterwards was indescribable, like I *knew* everything would be ok, like I wanted to inhale or embrace the whole world. The first time I really felt like I loved the world, like it was something truly good, as my life up to that point had been chaos, physical and verbal abuse and alcoholic parents.

But it also depends on how you view these teachers too. I was very respectful of them and was trying to do my first experience right, intending to low dose for self titration, and be in a good mindset and setting (though obviously it's not recommended to solo trip your first time, I ignored that because I didn't trust anyone else at that point in my life). And even though the experience was terrifying, I would not trade it for the world. But a lot of my friends at the time were taking whatever they could get ahold of to get 'high'. And they were doing it purely for recreation, not for any inner exploration or insight, which is what I valued these substances for. That's not a judgement, to each their own, but that has a definite impact in most cases on what your experience is like or what you glean from it.

[KD]

have you been reading my journal? honestly i do believe this, that these are my teachers and have helped me on some great emotional, spiritual, social and instinctual(necessary for survival!) levels.  some of us are perhaps more sensitive, although not to such satirical depths, to being lost in this super civilized world.  ive never done well in most of the institutions we are supposed to try and live through, but have thrived in nature and by being honest to my own human nature. 

I haven't been reading your journal. I've got through a number of books on the subject, so for sure I don't believe this particular idea is nonsense. In fact the very idea that we havn't evolved/changed drastically in 10,000 years certainly seems more the fantasy to me, even though I'm open and of the opinion to certain other 'de-volvements', physical stuff or spiritual etc...

So, basically I don't know what to believe, and therefore always entertain a number of possibilities. I just think its funny how alot of these subjects go from on topic, to guts and bones and feces, to this type of thing.

I did write some other things that were making fun of some of this 'how do we be paleo in the modern world'. I just often see people present ideas as if they create superhumans, then its all like, terrible burdens or other excuses to thriving, and questioning why the twinkie diet didn't kill that guy, and how the world is going to hell. I mean, we all live on planet Earth in 2012, so we should be certainly choosing the diets and lifestlyes that actually work to create robust forward thinking people, and part of this is re-examining the past. Seems possible to include trippy funguses and such that we know for certain many folks did use...or perhaps that is a part we dont need/can discard. I don't know. So I apologize if it offended you personally, you wern't who I was thinking of.

[zeno]

I think you probably were fat-starved.  Also, you may not have been getting enough minerals. Eating enough fat and minerals (like calcium and magnesium from natural sources) is very good for sating the appetite.

I was mainly eating yolks, ribs and tongue the last few days before I started to collapse to ice cream. The fat just wasn't as satisfying as dairy. I think I wasn't absorbing it well even though I was eating ample amounts. My experience supports the belief that fat in dairy is one of the most readily absorbed fats--much easier than the fat of meat that has been frozen.

All I know is that I've been eating a shit ton of conventional, processed shit and for the most part I feel better then when I was when I was starving myself because I thought these foods to be more damaging than beneficial. Starve yourself enough and ice cream will be beneficial. If you don't think so, check out the similarities of French Vanilla soft-serve yogurt and human breast milk. Granted, I understand the flaw in using this website, but the similarities are pretty impressive considering the differences of these two foods, no?

[zeno]

And mushrooms shook me violently out of my sheeple stupor. That is all the proof I need of their benefit.

So, I should trip on some 'shrooms then give RPD one more go?  He-he

[jessica]

trip on schrooms, listen to alan watts..!!!!!!!! dodododo, there is plenty of research both institutionally as well as heart-felt(literally) stories that date far back to the beginning of us as human being beings that describe the relationships we have with fungus...in fact, i feel as though we are just priming the earth for a fungal take over...they can digest plastics and radiation, you know:)!

honest kd i was being a bit facetious....doesnt translate over the computer very well. and really i dont get offended by much, especially nothing here.  i think its humorous often times how feral i am at heart and really appreciate myself and the dynamic relationships i have with others.....all types of beings

[RogueFarmer]

No...

Milk, honey and veggy juice lately.

I am not sure if I am doing good.

I am not sure if there is anybody out there I can get along with it's true.

Where is there a cool farm in need of cows haha?

[sabertooth]

I saw a reference to it in an article on lions, years ago. Can't remember where I got it from, though. They stated that lions routinely grabbed the bowel with their teeth and removed it from the rest of the corpse without eating it.

Lions have different nutritional requirements than carnivorous human beings. Our need for fat to fuel our large brains far exceeds that of felines who seem to be able to thrive on lean meats.

I also rip out the guts in one piece with my bare hands and separate it from the rest, but then I will strip of the fat from the intestinal lining and pick out the adrenal glands, as well as other tasty tid bits. Then I will squeeze the droppings from the lower bowels and save a small portion. The small intestine is a bit gross with digestive juice and grassy slime, but the lower track has digested grass pellets that are easy to discard. FYI

Also like sabertooth said, he wasn't implying anyone should eat feces. More a commentary, which I feel pretty strong about, on the waste that goes on in western countries. Here most of what he's talking about get scrapped and, though I've searched high and low here in MN/WI, no one will give me the head/brains of a grassfed cow. So instead it gets scrapped and they PAY someone to dispose of it, WTF!!?!?!?!!? Nevermind there are people without food all over the world!

It is astonishing how the best parts end up in the trash, or gets rendered into dog food. I am lucky to find whole animals for a reasonable price. My friend the butcher gives me an unlimited supply of lamb belly fat, and also sells me sheep heads for 5 dollars a piece. I often forget that not everyone is so fortunate.

 I have noticed real benefits from eating brains regularly.

KD tell me more about this cow fungus.

Could this fungus, if eaten at certain intervals along with a balanced paleo diet that includes an ungodly amount of lamb brain, rotten meat and coconut, give rise to an awakened man of exceptionable wisdom and vitality?

[KD]

its one of the 'how we got big brain' theories

basically how alot of people associate cooking and such with bigger brains, or at least more capable ones. This one if accurate - associates it not with the structure or products of the neolithic, but pastoralism. Specifically in the sense that herding animals, and more specifically the development of cattle, led to a particular fungus that only grows in cow shit (I believe?), Psilocybe cubensis, which supposed opened various lines of communication and knowledge and spirituality and such. Far deeper into the paleolithic (100,000 B.C.) than some people generally promote with the other theories.

so.

yes

[PaleoPhil]

Terence McKenna's entheogen-triggered evolution hypothesis
Terence McKenna - mushrooms and evolution

[jessica]

our brains used to be "larger" because we are such a multi sensory species, the lack of full use of all senses, our species is hugely and primarily reliant on language, voice, and sight is a huge reason we are becoming dumb and dull.  i think the lack of entheogens, which are the ultimate connector and communicator between each cell within out bodies and all of space and creation is the reason our brains are so small..........john hopkins university has many studies on their uses for depression there is also www.maps.org Multidisciplinary Association for Psychedelic Studies

[sabertooth]

Far out man.

There is so much we don't know about human development, it does seem feasible from my own observations , that certain factors such as psychoactive fungus could be a catalysis for the development of higher syntax.

There are people I know who come from backward uneducated communities that are dramatically changed by using fungal substances. They see the world in a different light than those who are uninitiated , and I find much insight and delight in their altered views of reality. I am often amazed at the depth of conversation I am able to engage with in people who have be altered by psychedelia. Tim leery was just an egg headed professor who rediscovered and brought to the modern western consciousness something that had been known by primitive peoples for eons.

Here is a newly hatched alternative theory on the evolution of higher consciousness.

There is also special properties within the organisms that are found in rotting meat. Perhaps mushrooms were only one of many elements that shaped human consciousness. I find that high meat has a dramatic effect on metal focus. Even vision and other senses seem heightened. Using high meat triggers in the mind newer and more clear imagery of consciousness. Our cave man ancestors may have had to eat large amounts of rotten meat from scavenged kills in order to survive. If there are mind altering substances produced by the bacteria and fungus within the rotting meat eaten by our ancestors, then perhaps, that could of been the more likely catalyst for higher thinking.

The development of higher syntax is likely to have been caused by a combination of a multitude of factors that included better brain building nutrition such, along with psychoactive substances in rotting flesh. Large amounts of high meat may of triggered increased brain activity along with overall improved metabolic function, that allowed the mind body and spirit of our cave man ancestors to reach new heights.  Once the human brain became acclimated to these substances then perhaps the discovery an use of certain mushrooms may have been what took things to the next level.

Food for thought.

This is me with what is left of my renegade lamb. It is rotten and starting to fester with maggots. Yum, yum.

[KD]

yea, people just frame 'big brained' with our increased refinement/knowledge, and incorrectly so. Although technicaly we do have bigger physical brains than monkeys, and that likely has its own evolution way previously with animal food or whatever other theory. Or that maybe monkeys are just de-evolved proto-humans that insisted on fruit and laziness . Anyway, it seems more in the development as Jess says of language and technologies and so forth that like it or not do 'advance' a species. Even some chimps have primitive technologies and such that they use to smoke out termites and things that some other apes cannot.

I see no reasons to doubt we had abilities we do not have today, but I guess I would see those things as trade-offs. Most technologies and developments seems to have trade-offs and consequences, yet some may have none or little. Overall less winners and more losers maybe. The traps with the caveman thing would be cutting off certain thigns without bothering to replace them with others, or saying flat out that things can't be improved, often being buttressed by other even modern things. Probably better to frame these all as bad subjectively I guess, as opposed to saying humans don't change in terms of what they can do, use as food etc... just a matter of weighing the consequences. Technically with the brain its more a issue of increasing knowledge than capabilities, but knowledge isn't exactly not useful.

I still see no dolphin/bonobo joint space station. So if we have trashed the globe i'm sticking with the scientists.

---
sweet pics

Nevermind what I said before.,'Savage-y' caveman FTW!

err. + coconut products

[Inger]

Looking good Sabertooth!

There are people I know who come from backward uneducated communities that are dramatically changed by using fungal substances. They see the world in a different light than those who are uninitiated , and I find much insight and delight in their altered views of reality. I am often amazed at the depth of conversation I am able to engage with in people who have be altered by psychedelia.

Yes. I have the same experience with my brother. He is 20 yo and have totally changed over time.. he used psychedelich mushrooms. The last half year no more mushrooms though - but he has changed. He has gotten so much more aware of others needs and presens. It is very beautiful as it comes so naturally from within, nothing forced. He is so much more capable of respect and love now than before.
It is a joy to witness, indeed.
We feel very deep connection and he is able to think amazingly deep and spiritual, much more than I at 35.
We very much enjoy each others company and often he helps me a great way with the wisdom of he's heart.
I have not tasted the mushrooms yet. I do feel my food helps in the same direction though. I do hope so.
My brother eats regular food, on the healthier side. He still lives with my parents. But he always wants to try what I am eating, raw Lambshearts and fresh slaughtered chickenhearts, livers and such..

Inger

[Adora]

My butcher asked if I want a specific cut of the beef we will have next week. I want to leave it open in my fridge. I have a wooden bowl and I will fold a towel on top to "protect the innocence" of my cooked family. He suggested top round and asked how many pounds. What do you all think? I want to pick at it for a couple of weeks so I'll need a lot. I have some organ meet I might not finish. If I set the liver on an open dish in the fridge will it be a healthy aging product too? My butcher said to not eat any fuzy mold but I doubt he has any experience. Am I supposed to cut off what fat I can? Does fat not cool dry store well?
      It looks like saber just eats whatever part with no concern for healthy storage ( open air is impirtant i presume - thats a compliment not an insult). If this is so than is that what you suggest? I'm not wanting to hang it in my garage just yet but are there any things I should do to improve my open air fridge beef storage? I can just eat off of it whenever I want right?

[goodsamaritan]

This is me with what is left of my renegade lamb. It is rotten and starting to fester with maggots. Yum, yum.

Festering with maggots is yummy?  I've never tried that.
How many days you left that carcass outside?
What's the temperature and humidity in your area?

[jessica]

you also dont see dolphins trashing to globe.....our divergence from the dolphins was out first mistake...im sticking with the dolphins