TOO MUCH protein bad for kidneys?

[Joy2012]

Below is  a quote from a medical doctor, which says that if more than 8% of one's diet is protein, one is likely doing harm to one's kidneys:
"Any protein more than 5-8% of the diet forces the body to convert protein back to carbohydrate. This causes the release of nitrogen compounds, mainly Ammonia. Your liver is then burdened with transforming the ammonia to urea so that the kidneys can excrete it. That's one reason why vegetarians have so much more kidney reserve capacity when we're older.

Once the system of conversion is highly active, your body craves more protein. It's the same basic mechanism as drug addiction. "

http://www.fastingconnection.com/forum/Posts-for-The-Fast-Doctor/10330-Corner-of-my-mouth-is-leaking-saliva

What do people in this forum think?

[goodsamaritan]

I had observed that too much protein is bad for kidneys whether cooked or raw.

I just don't know the exact percentages.

But I can feel it in myself intuitively.

[Isthmus]

I think it's absurd. You just have to consider our evolutionary past. Through large tracts of history, particularly in the glacial times, we would have been basically subsisting on meat. We are heavily adapted toward being carnivorous, the idea then that we can't properly process protein and use some of it for carbohydrates without serious health risk seems to me untenable.

[goodsamaritan]

The title should be TOO MUCH PROTEIN.

The thing is, how much is too much?

I'd rather follow the homo optimus diet proportions.

[Isthmus]

Sure, too much of X is bad for you applies to just about everything. In fact the sentence is tautological, because you've already said it's "too much", which implies that it's bad for you.

The numbers of 5-8% given by the poster are truly absurd though.

How much is too much is surely complicated. It is based on your activity levels, genetics, age, state of health etc. Whatever too much protein is however, you should just naturally feel like not eating any more protein when you've had enough, and want something else like fat, right?

[Joy2012]

Whatever too much protein is however, you should just naturally feel like not eating any more protein when you've had enough, and want something else like fat, right?

But this medical doctor said that eating much protein (over 8% of the diet) will mess up our body's natural biofeedback:

"Once the system of conversion (of protein to carbo) is highly active, your body craves more protein. It's the same basic mechanism as drug addiction."

[cherimoya_kid]

The WHO recommends around 20% protein of total calories, the last I heard.  Health problems start to occur at around 30% of total calories, so I'd say aiming for 25% is probably not a bad idea.

One of the good things about raw meat/fish is that the protein is much more absorbable raw, meaning you can eat less of it, and still meet your protein needs.

[goodsamaritan]

But this medical doctor said that eating much protein (over 8% of the diet) will mess up our body's natural biofeedback:

"Once the system of conversion (of protein to carbo) is highly active, your body craves more protein. It's the same basic mechanism as drug addiction."

That's his opinion.
Any raw paleo dieter want to make experiments with this?
8% of what?
- calories?
- volume?
- weight?

Take pics of your meals if you are experimenting to show the 8%
We need to be more visual.

[Muhammad.Sunshine]

Protein requirements should be measured in grams rather than arbitrary ratios. The average person needs about .8-1 gram of protein per kilogram of body weight. Athletes and manual laborers need around 1.4-2 grams of protein per kilogram.

Many bodybuilders inhale unholy amounts of protein, and from what I know they don't suffer higher rates of kidney or liver disease. However, people taking low amounts of protein usually develop deficiency problems. High amounts of carbohydrates exert a protein sparing effect on people eating low amounts of protein.

[Joy2012]

Many bodybuilders inhale unholy amounts of protein, and from what I know they don't suffer higher rates of kidney or liver disease. However, people taking low amounts of protein usually develop deficiency problems.

Will you give references (studies)  for these two claims?

[Isthmus]

Kidney problems linked with excess protein intake may be linked to not being hydrated enough, with protein digestion requiring water.

[HIT_it_RAW]

Most (if not all) research done on kidney damage from exces proteins are from cooked food sources. Cooked protein rich(animal) produce also have the highest level heat created toxins so imo it is very likely that those kidney problems are not from the protein per se but more from a lot of unwanted byproducts. 5% cals from prot would mean eating either very much carbs (fruitarian style) very much fat or quite a lot of both. al these 3 give me problems. For now i will stay with my usual 25%prot 65-70 % fat and 5-10% carbs.

[HIT_it_RAW]

Kidney problems linked with excess protein intake may be linked to not being hydrated enough, with protein digestion requiring water.

Raw meat has quite a lot of water in it. Eating cooked meat makes me crave lots of water whereas raw meat makes me feel hydrated.

[goodsamaritan]

I tried that ridiculous experiment of eating 1 kilo of raw meat a day someone posted on this forum.
That gave me kidney pain.
The only way I could consume that much raw meat was to reduce the proportion of raw fat I ate.

[Haai]

I tried that ridiculous experiment of eating 1 kilo of raw meat a day someone posted on this forum.
That gave me kidney pain.
The only way I could consume that much raw meat was to reduce the proportion of raw fat I ate.

I can easily eat 1 kilo of raw meat per day, especially when having been physically active. Whether my body actually requires that amount though is another matter. I have noticed that eg. 5 kg of deer meat (venison) will last me a couple of days longer than beef. The venison gives me a much clearer stop signal, and more importantly a stop signal that I don't seem to have the urge to ignore. In my experience domestic meats can easily be over-eaten and wild game meat not so easily. Maybe the reason for this is the differing fat content.

[Muhammad.Sunshine]

Joy, following are the links which you requested.

Protein and kidney health
This link is by researchers who reviewed the scientific literature concerning protein intake and renal function. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1262767/
The researchers conclude that a high protein intake (>1.5g/kg) is fine for people with healthy kidneys.

Low protein and deficiency symptoms
The following link concerns body composition changes during overfeeding. The subjects who ate a hyper caloric- low protein diet (42-50g), gained fat but actually lost lean body mass. http://jama.ama-assn.org/content/307/1/86
This shows that even with surplus calories protein deficiency symptoms occur. Loss of lean body mass is not as dangerous as kwashiorkor syndrome, but it is still a protein deficiency symptom.

[Joy2012]

Thanks, Muhammad.

And thanks to all who have posted posts which relieve my comprehension about eating a good quantity of raw animal food.

[Joy2012]

Thanks, Muhammad.

And thanks to all who have posted posts which relieve my comprehension about eating a good quantity of raw animal food.

I meant my "apprehension" (not "comprehension")  about eating a good quantity of raw animal protein.

[Muhammad.Sunshine]

Thank you Joy,

Your questions are important to us, keep on asking! Providing evidence and support keeps us thinking critically and raises our collective intelligence. 

[Justin]

I can easily eat 1 kilo of raw meat per day, especially when having been physically active. Whether my body actually requires that amount though is another matter. I have noticed that eg. 5 kg of deer meat (venison) will last me a couple of days longer than beef. The venison gives me a much clearer stop signal, and more importantly a stop signal that I don't seem to have the urge to ignore. In my experience domestic meats can easily be over-eaten and wild game meat not so easily. Maybe the reason for this is the differing fat content.

Likewise, I can easily consume 2-3lbs of meat in a day, I think my record is 5lbs and that was after some extremely arduous activity and as far as I can tell, have suffered no issues. Granted, we have no idea what's happening internally at any given moment, all we truly have are our senses to guide us and give us information.

[LePatron7]

Hello everyone.

I know this thread is about the dangers of to much protein. But what about to little protein?

I'm trying to calculate my protein, fat and carb needs. But I'm having trouble.

I was thinking 3.5 oz of suet per day is good. And 8 oz of meat/organs per day is good too.

But when I checked how much protein is in 8 oz of meat, it's only like 40 grams of protein. Don't we need more protein than that? It just seems a little low.

[goodsamaritan]

I observe peoples needs fluctuate over time.  There's that bit of instincto that is useful in this regard.

[LePatron7]

I observe peoples needs fluctuate over time.  There's that bit of instincto that is useful in this regard.

I made the mistake of thinking one ounce of meat is 100% protein (1 oz meat = 28 grams protein) lol

Rookie mistake.

It turns out I need about 1 lb of meat/organs a day to get about 80 grams of protein.

[Iguana]

I observe peoples needs fluctuate over time.  There's that bit of instincto that is useful in this regard.

Sure, and not only over time but also from person to person. Everyone being different and dynamic (as opposed to static), the needs vary widely and only our instinct can tel what is exactly the actual and momentary amount of every different nutrients we need.

We don't need any doctor, professor or guru to tel us what we should eat and in which amount.

[Pumkin]

Many bodybuilders inhale unholy amounts of protein, and from what I know they don't suffer higher rates of kidney or liver disease. However, people taking low amounts of protein usually develop deficiency problems. High amounts of carbohydrates exert a protein sparing effect on people eating low amounts of protein.

I've assumed Traditional bodybuilders  end up with kidney issue bc they eat Poor quality and prepped foods.
cutting (low -carb, salt, fat) & bulking (eating poor quality fatty "in and out burger" meat and dounuts) over and over season after season going to extremes including how much they workout?  All meat is cooked & muscle meats only, processed preoten powders and bars too.  How would a raw fish and raw meat diet with the same amount of protein react in that same guy's body? Would there kidneys suffer as a result? That would be the truer test if protein does in fact damage kidneys or if it's the cooking processes that changes the game completely?