Small Raw Fish should be Eaten Whole

[goodsamaritan]

Lately I have been lucky at the nearby wet market to come across very fresh dilis (small, anchovy like fish). These small fish deserve to be eaten whole merely dipped for a few minutes in organic coconut vinegar or by adding some small slices of ginger and onions, a dish we call “kinilaw”.



Kinilaw na dilis“Kinilaw” means “kinain ng hilaw” or “eaten raw”.  It is chemically cooked, really.  You let the organic coconut vinegar, in our case, Lola Conching’s Vinegar turn the dilis fish from transparent to a little white.  Then you will know the fish is ready to eat.  This takes around 5 to 10 minutes.  Some people add lots of calamansi, a philippine citrus which acts like a lemon, but tastes better.

So at the meal I just photographed, our cook prepared a batch of dilis where she painstakingly removed the head and the bones so all you have left is meat.  And I asked for another batch which just used the whole fish.  I tasted both batches.  Guess which got scraped, finished off to the last fish?  The batch with the whole fish, eaten with bones and head!  I just found the tummy bitter to I remove the tummy intestines before I eat the fish though.

In my view, the batch without the head and the fish bones taste too acidic.  It’s like I can’t eat more than a few bites of them.  The dilis fish without the head and bones seems unbalanced.  But with the fish head and the bones, it had just the right crunch, and I could eat a lot of it, yummy.

My mother in law says it is because of the calcium in the bones.  I also think it could be that much fish fat and bones are also in the head.  Maybe this is what Dr. Hulda Clark is saying when Weston Price observed the healthy tribes living beside the sea had almost perfect teeth because of eating a lot of organic calcium from fish.  This is how you eat calcium from the fish, eat small fish whole!  What a great discovery.

From my blog at http://www.myhealthblog.org/2008/05/21/small-raw-fish-should-be-eaten-with-the-head-and-bones

[xylothrill]

I raise Endler's Livebearers - a type of tropical fish. I wonder if I can eat them. I feed them food from: http://www.almostnaturaltropicalfishfood.com/ They breed like crazy! They have live babies every 23 days. They're just like guppies and do not eat their own young. This food is the most natural I could find. They do add vitamins but none of the chemicals found in regular fish food.

We don't have coconut vinegar here. Would raw apple cider vinegar work?

Craig

[goodsamaritan]

I'm sure ACV will work.  It is vinegar.  I just highlighted in my post that the vinegar is natural, just like ACV.  There are commercial factory made vinegars that are more like chemicals and may not be safe for human consumption.

[Nicola]

How did you get on with digesting; the oysters you had once caused trouble...

I am always interested in the whole digestion - not just what we put in our mouth.

What about eating fish the way they are - vinegar is not paleo?

Nicola

[Satya]

That looks good.

We don't have coconut vinegar here. Would raw apple cider vinegar work?

You can get coconut vinegar at an Asian grocery store.  My Korean market carries it.

[goodsamaritan]

How did you get on with digesting; the oysters you had once caused trouble...

I have no problems digesting oysters.

Those oysters I had trouble with were grown in a dirty / polluted environment.  The problem with oysters is identifying a safe source.  When I eat oysters at an oyster restaurant, they serve them raw as well, but they know their sources will only sell them oysters from clean waters.

I am always interested in the whole digestion - not just what we put in our mouth.

What about eating fish the way they are - vinegar is not paleo?

One time we got much fresher dilis like the ones above, but much bigger.  They were so fresh we ate a couple of them plain without vinegar. 

I've seen the fishermen and people who live by the sea eat totally raw fish and shellfish without vinegar.  They just wash it in the sea water just as it is collected and then eat.

One time we were vacationing by a beach where the natives collected sea urchins in the morning.  We ate the sea urchin meat raw without vinegar just like the natives did.

We don't have that luxury of being beside the sea where I live, the seafood may have traveled some 24 hours in ice on the way to Manila, so it is hygienic for us to use vinegar at the minimum to disinfect sea food.

Even before I started eating raw paleo, much fresh sea food is traditionally eaten raw or just dipped in vinegar, especially if you lived by the sea.  A good percentage of sea side living Filipinos I see have no qualms eating raw sea food as long as it is fresh right out of the water.

I would tend to think that in the paleo days, humans who lived by the sea usually ate their sea food raw because there is absolutely no need to cook them.

[xylothrill]

That looks good.

You can get coconut vinegar at an Asian grocery store.  My Korean market carries it.

Ah! The Filipino store should have it. It would have occurred to me sooner or later. My Philippine friend goes there once a week.

[Raw Kyle]

I wasn't able to find whole small fish but I found some cleaned "sweet fish" at a Korean grocery store. I've been marinating them in lemon juice and will probably eat them today. Hopefully "sweet fish" is just a name for the fish and doesn't mean they put sugar or something like that in them.

[Za]

I thought that the "chemical cooking" process by which the vinegar or other acid turn marinated fish opaque-looking denatured proteins almost to the same extent that cooking did. Does someone have info on this? Isn't the point of eating fish raw to not eat the denatured proteins?
Thanks,
-Za
 

[xylothrill]

I thought that the "chemical cooking" process by which the vinegar or other acid turn marinated fish opaque-looking denatured proteins almost to the same extent that cooking did. Does someone have info on this? Isn't the point of eating fish raw to not eat the denatured proteins?
Thanks,
-Za
 

Good question! I'd like to know too. Also would this type of chemical "cooking" destroy enzymes as well?

Craig

P.S. Welcome to the forum Za!

[Raw Kyle]

I'm confused about the denaturing aspect of cooking and chemical cooking. As we all know, the stomach acid denatures proteins in the stomach, so is citric acid marinated meat any different?

I thought the problem with cooking was that novel chemicals are created, the proteins and fats and sugars react in certain ways to create toxic by-products.

Acid cooked meat may not be as good as fresh, but I'm 99% certain it's better than heat cooked meat, by a large margin better.

[TruthHunter]

I thought that the "chemical cooking" process by which the vinegar or other acid turn marinated fish opaque-looking denatured proteins almost to the same extent that cooking did. Does someone have info on this? Isn't the point of eating fish raw to not eat the denatured proteins?
Thanks,
-Za
 

: The"chemical cooking is very similar to the what happens in your stomach with hydrochloric acid. The "denaturing is not the same as what happens  with  heat.  Acetic  acid is naturally produced in  the krebs cycle,  metabolizing glucose.  The bacteria that can survive in a acidic environment  are relatively benign.

I have a whole pond full of Mosquito fish. Its hard to get many with a scoop net as the get wary rather quickly.  I could make a small trap and get almost unlimited quantities. The seem to be the only fish in the pond. The largest are only 75 mm. If they weigh 10 grams I'd be surprised! That's 50 to the lb The females are loaded with eggs.  Maybe  I will try eating a few.  I like the idea of "disinfecting" them  with vinegar or lemon juice.  They are very soft, but I think I would clean them first.  I don't want  to eat shit 

John

[avalon]

Raw Kyle, good call on the lemon juice. I love ceviche which if anyone doesn't know is marinated raw fish- sometimes in lemon, lime or both. It's delicious!

Over at Wai Diet they talk of denaturing the proteins, but I now believe that if you want to eat some this way, eat some this way. You're not going to eat vinegar or lemon juice at every meal. Some people people feel vinegar is a poison  What to do?

Like the controversy over eating whole eggs raw- the Biotin/Avidin thang. Some believe you shouldn't eat the whites, AV says eat the whole package. I say do both. You can't go wrong that way.

Best wishes,
Avalon

[Satya]

Raw Kyle, good call on the lemon juice. I love ceviche which if anyone doesn't know is marinated raw fish- sometimes in lemon, lime or both. It's delicious!

Over at Wai Diet they talk of denaturing the proteins, but I now believe that if you want to eat some this way, eat some this way. You're not going to eat vinegar or lemon juice at every meal. Some people people feel vinegar is a poison  What to do?

Well, just think about what happens when that fish hits the hydrochloric acid of your stomach.  Just a bit stronger than lemon juice.  So, enjoy ceviche!

[boxcarguy07]

Yeah, it's not really the denaturing of the protein that worries me about cooking. Like Kyle said, the stomach acid denatures the protein anyway. All denaturing means is really the molecule unfolds. It doesn't get destroyed, and as far as I know it really makes no difference.

I'm much more concerned about the chemicals created and the oxidation of fat, etc.

[Raw Kyle]

I say do both. You can't go wrong that way.

Except half the time 

[Raw Kyle]

I'm much more concerned about the chemicals created and the oxidation of fat, etc.

I've seen info on the lowering of vitamins and minerals after drying and cooking before for foods, but I don't believe I've ever seen data from experiments looking at fat oxidation levels of novel chemicals created after a food processing procedure. Sounds like a good experiment.

[xylothrill]

I've seen info on the lowering of vitamins and minerals after drying and cooking before for foods, but I don't believe I've ever seen data from experiments looking at fat oxidation levels of novel chemicals created after a food processing procedure. Sounds like a good experiment.

That would be a good experiment. The more saturated the better concerning oxidation and free radicals but I think those who cook their food should be especially concerned.

http://www.second-opinions.co.uk/temperature-of-oils.html
https://www.westonaprice.org/knowyourfats/skinny.html

[avalon]

Avalon wrote:

I say do both. You can't go wrong that way.

Raw Kyle wrote:

Except half the time 

I'm sorry, did you miss read what I wrote?

YOU CAN'T GO WRONG THAT WAY!

If you want a good argument that's down the hall. This is being hit on the head lessons in here 

[Raw Kyle]

I'm just speaking mathematically. You have two options, you don't know which one is correct, so you do both. Well if one is still correct and the other is incorrect then you're still wrong half of the time. If you choose to do only one of them then you have a 50% chance to either be right all of the time or wrong all of the time.

[avalon]

I'm just speaking mathematically. You have two options, you don't know which one is correct, so you do both. Well if one is still correct and the other is incorrect then you're still wrong half of the time. If you choose to do only one of them then you have a 50% chance to either be right all of the time or wrong all of the time.

If you don't know which one is correct, and they both might be correct, then you might be right 100% of the time.

And if perchance the avidin does bind with the biotin half the time while eating the whole egg, because you are eating half as yolks only, you're not a complete failure- and in this case shouldn't suffer a biotin deficiency which makes this exercise a complete success.

This is still being hit on the head lessons in here.

Sincerely,
The Management

[yon yonson]

does anyone eat sardines often? i just bought some and am not quite sure what to do with them. should i gut them or just eat them whole? do i need to remove the skin? any insight would help

[coconinoz]

"As we all know, the stomach acid denatures proteins in the stomach, so is citric acid marinated meat any different?"

in my current understanding:
lemon = a fruit, it contains both glucose & fructose
stomach hcl = none of the above