raw vegetarians/vegans - allies or enemies?

[Raw Kyle]

For fun I was just watching some youtube videos of raw vegans. I like to just watch videos sometimes even if I'm not looking to get some particular knowledge from them; it can be relaxing.

So I'm watching these videos and people are always trashing meat and dairy and eggs without making any distinction between cooked and raw. I used to do the same thing, the (I believe) false information given out about how bad meat is for you tends to convince you that all meat is bad rather than that the particular meat that is available today and the way it is prepared today is what's bad. The information is designed to lead people to these conclusions.

The raw vegetarian/vegan movement has a lot of things going for it such as celebrity endorsement, a growing following, some very nice restaurants (mostly in NYC and California) etc...

Is there any way to some bridge the divide? It seems that from the people I've met over a 3 or so year stint on that diet and watching videos and everything else very few people even think about the idea of eating raw meat. It's like they've removed the conditioning that you need to eat cooked food but not that raw meat will hurt you, which is interesting because it seems like the same thought process of having to cook things and sanitize everything and all that leads to both of those ideas, that you need to cook your meat and that you need to eat cooked plants as well. Or perhaps not need to, but that the cooking doesn't harm plant foods and make them less valuable nutritionally.

It seems like raw vegans are much more dogmatic and (for lack of a less harsh term) insane about their dietary convictions. It is rather common to see very thin and sickly looking people talking about how good they feel and how stupid everyone around them is. I thought Juliano looked ok in person the one time I saw him in his restaurant and also in the pictures in his book, but some videos I was watching today made him look less good. It seems women do better on raw vegan, or perhaps it's just more socially acceptable for women to be skinny than men. But I find that men tend to be even more thin on the diet and some women can (at least for a while) keep their attractive curves and appear healthy and attractive. Perhaps this is hormonal, or maybe it's that mens bodies are formed from a greater ratio of muscle curve vs. fat curves while women are in comparison more fat to muscle than men and that fat is easier to maintain on raw vegan than muscle; hence a womanly figure could be maintained as minimal muscle mass (as compared to a man) is necessary for today's idea of what healthy attractive women look like.

On a lot of videos too they are always talking about "super foods" and saying "best ever" about everything ala David Wolfe. The whole thing is pretty space cadet-ish and the people I've met IRL and on forums from that diet tend to be much more "out there" than the people I've met at the AV lecture I went to and on this forum.

So what do you guys think? Any of you from the raw vegan diet like I am? Is there any hope for them losing their rapid anti-meat stance in terms of raw meat? I think I read somewhere that David Wolfe said meat is a super food but then gave a reason why not to eat it, either environmental or the standards it's raised and prepared or something. If someone like that switched over that would be almost as big as if Tom Cruise got Oprah Winfrey to become a Scientologist.

[boxcarguy07]

before discovering raw paleo, but after deciding to go raw, I went on some raw vegan message boards because they were the only raw boards I knew about. I wasn't myself a raw vegan, as I would have some raw eggs or fish every once in a while, but most days I ate plant foods only.

Anyway, most of these boards did not even allow discussion of animal foods at all; it was a bannable offense.
The raw vegan community does seem to be extremely dogmatic, and I agree it would take a lot of work to stop the misinformation spread. Not that I'm terribly interested in converting people, but still.

[goodsamaritan]

I went raw vegan for 2 months last year.
I was never dogmatic about anything.
So it was always a wait and see thing.
Many raw vegans are dogmatic... blind until they are faced with nutritional deficiency realities.

Since I wasn't dogmatic to begin with and I'm sensitive to my needs, 2 months was enough for me to quit on raw vegan and I added back cooked starches and cooked meat. Later on I tried raw fruitarian, but that led to other problems.  And later on Wai Diet which led to RPD.

I view the resources on raw vegan communities as useful.  Since they are stuck in that paradigm, they point out good fruits and good vegetables.  So that is useful information for us in Raw Paleo.

I feel that we need to extend a helping hand, open arms to some 90++ percent of people who are eventually going to fall off the raw vegan dead end... instead of them reverting to cooked starches... show them a path through cooked meat paleo diet... moving on to the ULTIMATE... which is raw paleo diet.

I view RPD as the ultimate.   Let majority of the raw vegans explore and find us.  They eventually will find cooked meat Paleo Diet their bridge and Raw Paleo Diet the ultimate destination.

Maybe we should have a thread or a section for transition diets.  Help the lost souls transition say from cooked meat paleo diet to raw paleo diet.

[xylothrill]

I was surprised when Tyler said that he teamed up with some raw vegans to let some of his wikipedia articles stay. So, working together is possible.

They don't tend to make a distinction between raw and cooked animal foods and yes, I've also seen people get banned for discussing eating meat. We just have to get the message out there that raw meat, fat, and organs are actually very good for you. I wonder if they'd consider a cooked vegan diet better or worse than RAVF.

They also tend to get more parasites due to the organic fertilization methods of the foods they eat. They are always discussing parasite cleanses for their parasites but I don't see that complaint too often, if at all, from RPDers despite the fact that some of them can actually help cure some intestinal diseases.

[TylerDurden]

First of all, I think it's a  bad idea to view Raw Vegans as "the enemy". Like Craig said, one of the main reasons why the anti-raw fanatics were unable to block my contributions to the Raw Foodism Wikipedia page was that there were several raw vegans continually making contributions on other non-RAF-matters, thus creating a distraction. I only came across 1 Raw Vegan who was so angry as to delete all mention of raw animal food diets in the first half of that article, and that edit was, thankfully, swiftly reversed (by a non-rawist?). And there are some Raw Vegans on the Web who do admit that raw meats are healthier than cooked meats, being free of toxins, but they do still harp on about the bacteria/parasites issue, of course.

Basically, we're a fringe group, loathed by many, so we need all the friends we can get. And, besides, a large majority of people who turn to RAF diets are former Raw Vegans(due to nutritional-deficiencies while Raw Vegan), so they are a welcome source of recruitment. I don't agree that Raw Vegans commonly go cooked-palaeo and then go rawpalaeo. Usually what happens is that there are three groups from which RAFers come from(listed in descending order, according to numbers):- 1 is the Raw Vegan/Fruitarian camp, another is from the cooked-low-carb/zero-carb/Atkins/cooked-palaeolithic-diet camp, and the last one consists of those looking for greater sprituality.

Anyway, Aajonus was a former Raw Vegan, and there are now several raw-omnivore gurus and chefs who used to be Raw Vegan but now recommend raw dairy, raw eggs and a little raw meat, so there's always progress, somewhere.

I used to be Raw Vegan and then Fruitarian, but never for ideological reasons, though I've always been an animal-lover. I only turned to Raw Veganism because of the agonising stomach-aches I had from any cooked-animal-food - but the whole thing scared me so I turned to supplements to try to prevent any nutritional deficiencies.


Technically, we do have celebrities who follow RAF diets but they aren't fanatical about being RAF. Mel Gibson has mentioned in 1 or 2 interviews that he follows the Tiger Diet(raw meat plus raw olive-oil, mainly), and there's also Uma Thurman. Also, one ex-Raw Vegan chef seems to have provided Val Kilmer with a Primal Diet meal.  There are raw-food restaurants focusing primarily on raw animal foods(ie Japanese Sashimi restaurants, though they offer some cooked seafood as well, and there are always raw oyster bars). So, we're slowly geting there.

[goodsamaritan]

Daniel Vitalis was a former raw vegan.
He was doing great the first 2-3 years as raw vegan.
Then after 7 more years on raw vegan he gave it up, suffered nutritional deficiencies
He added raw animal foods to his diet.
He is now on raw paleo diet, has been so for 5 years.

Daniel was interviewed as a resource export on One Radio Network.



Daniel Vitalis is not a vegan any longer.  Why not? Daniel has been researching the best water to drink and is an ardent student of getting the best nutrition to reach his goals.  He is the creator of ElixirCraft, he has been deeply immersed in Raw Foods, SuperFoods, Herbalism and Live Food nutrition for more than 14 years.  We think you'll hear some interesting and unique ideas from Daniel on how to reach your health goals.  Please pass this link on to everyone you care about.

http://www.oneradionetwork.com/content/blogcategory/912/113/

[TylerDurden]

Thanks, I'll post this on the rawpaleodiet yahoo group, once I've checked it through.

[Raw Kyle]

I myself came from the raw vegan camp.

I agree that calling someone an enemy is not a good idea because it can be a self fulfilling prophecy, but here's what I'm saying: There are two main groups of anti-RAFists, the largest being the normal population afraid of bacteria/parasites and who don't really care or care to know about toxins in cooked food, as in SAD eaters or eaters of quasi healthy cooked diets; the second group is hardcore vegetarians/vegans who will go out of their way to spread disinformation in addition to real facts about health/environmental/economic/moral reasons as why to not consume any animals foods raw or cooked. This second group is smaller simply because the mainstream SAD eaters are most of the population, but their hatred of healthy diets that are not vegetarian is many times stronger than the general/mainstream population fear of bacteria/parasites.

In fact some of the animal activist oriented vegetarians would probably hide or slander information pointing to meat (raw or cooked) being healthy even if it was sound scientific fact based information. For the most part your normal SAD eater will not go out of their way to lie about what is healthy or not, they just eat what they like and believe mainstream health officials telling them to worry about biological contaminants in RAF's.

To sum it up, raw vegans have a lot more in common with RAFists (mistrust of mainstream health information, alienation by those groups, interest in organic/wild/environmentaly friendly food and products, etc) than with the general population of SAD eaters or mainstream dieters, but the differences they do have (moral position and strongly held health/environmental beliefs against eating animals) are such strong convictions that they more vehemently oppose the movement than average people. I believe this is an effect of the average vegetarians health views being more intimately tied with their moral views than any other dietary group. The average vegetarian will cite animals rights or moral reasons in addition to health ones for their diet while the average SAD dieter or follower of most health non-vegetarian diets will either not cite moral reasons or do so with less frequency than vegetarians. This leads to their diet being more directly associated with their opinions on right and wrong, good and bad than others and will make their emotions such as fear and anger run higher while debating or trying to spread their message. Also another factor is that raw vegans are (other than us, that is to say we are equally) the most dire believers of their diet. Whereas SAD eaters have little to no belief in their diet being optimal and even cooked vegetarians sometimes just being junk food eaters who readily admit their diet of burritos and fries isn't healthy raw vegans believe to their very soul that they are eating the true and most healthful food for humans. You can see it in all the videos, so many of them are brainwashed into calling what they're eating the best ever constantly, it would take quite a bit to convince them otherwise. You don't see people on the Atkins or Mediterranean or low fat diets claiming their food to be the perfect food for humans, they just say more specific things like "this lowers cholesterol" or "this nutrient in this food abundant in this diet is good for this," and whether or not those claims are true, they are a much easier place to begin a discussion than the raw vegan position of "what I'm doing is the only and best way and everyone else is wrong, toxic and brainwashed."

[TylerDurden]

I see your point. But, while we are hardly going to convince the animal-rightists in the raw vegan movement, those who just turn to raw veganism for health reasons can be persuaded. And, while raw vegans do spout all sorts of rubbish about the dangers of meats, they find it more difficult to argue that nutritional deficiencies don't develop on their diets.

[Sully]

I came from raw vegan. I was doing what evrybody told you to do. Six meals a day. i was also sprouting. I had very very low energy. i had more enrgy on cooked vegan.

The funny thing is, i don't think i knew about raw paleo when I started to eat raw meat. Or maybe I did....I don't know....

I kinda do see them as a big part of putting the scare on people about animal foods in general.

Although the truth hopefully will be spread about RAF vs Cooked AF.

In order for something to live, something has to die. Plant or animal. Plants don't feel pain, but you still kill them when you eat them. Its in our nature to kill and eat other animals.

[JaX]

Raw Kyle you talk about how vegetarians/vegans talk about their hatred to cooked food and meat.. Its probably because there are many who have experienced healing from disease and feeling a lot better when switching from the SAD diet, so they have strong emotional convictions that its the right thing for themselves - and for everyone else for that matter. That's the nature of human beings, when we are convinced of something because we have experienced it ourselves and have strong emotions associated to it, we tend to want to spread our beliefs to the people around us

There are probably hundreds of diets or diet variations out there and some people do better on one diet others do better on another.  We all look different on the inside, just as we look different on the outside. This is a fact. Organ sizes and shapes can vary enormously between individuals. Amounts of nutrients people need vary. People's metabolic pathways even differ. This is biochemical individuality. There are many books written on this topic..

So why have raw vegans as enemies? At least they are not main stream as SAD eaters who haven't even given the health/diet issue a thought.Who are obese and have no idea why.

I think some people can do well on a no meat diet. I've seen many vegans who look good, have strong bodies, good physical condition. More than SAD eaters that's for sure. And who cares if some of them look think?

I agree that there is a lot of dogma going on but it again depends on the people. There are dogmatists following every diet.. Many say they are doing well on a diet when they actually aren't.. I think this might be the main problem in raw veganism, there are too many people who lack self-honesty. Some are eventually honest, but often only years down the road. The worst people are those who have only learned/read about a topic and then are preaching it like crazy even though they haven't tried it or it isn't working for them. I guess the problem is a failure to realize and accept that we are all different people with different bodies. One prescribed diet will never work for an entire population exactly because of this reason.

[Raw Kyle]

I disagree about some vegans looking better than SAD eaters. Lots of models and actors are SAD eaters and I could find a dozen very healthy looking SAD eaters for every one vegan that looks that healthy.

Which is probably because there simply are more SAD eaters than vegans, but still...saying a diet is good because a few people look healthy on it is probably the worst litmus test you can come up with. I looked very healthy on SAD, very healthy on cooked vegetarian, was looking too thin on raw vegan until I changed some stuff around then looked passable, and when I started adding animal foods things got better until I'm coming basically back to how I looked on SAD.

Also the "we're all different" idea gets thrown around a lot, but using it in defense of raw vegans is probably the biggest perversion of it I've seen yet. Of all the "one diet fits all" people I'd say raw foodists (including vegans and RAF'ers) are the worst offenders. And of rawists definitely the vegans are the worst, I've seen plenty of raw vegans on forums saying meat is poison and cooked food is poison and that people would be better off not eating anything etc...you don't see anything like that here or on any other diet forum.

Let me be clear, saying that they are "enemies" is not some kind of war declaration or that I hate them, simply that their work is on a near diametric opposition to our work. What word would you use? Antithesis? Nemesis? I decided to be less wordy.

[goodsamaritan]

Hi Seeker,

You are right on the money about vegan honesty and dogma.  I tried vegan too while helping a cancer patient, I did the same raw vegan diet. Raw vegan is a good temporary thing while healing or detoxing... but I soon discovered, it's a temporary thing, it is not for the long term... I was honest... raw vegan didn't taste good and I was getting too thin.  I only lasted for 2 months because I was honest?  I wasn't dogmatic?

Also did fruitarian.  My teacher was great... but even from his point of view, if fruits vanished, he would eat raw meat... not cooked meat.  I only lasted 2 months on fruitarian... got too cold and too thin.

Within raw paleo I'm still tryin out things... beginning with wai diet... it was getting boring so I added raw animal foods... cooked homo optimus diet and pork got my interest but the experiment turned out bad bad pork and bad cooked food... I went back to rpd... tried cow, carabao and goat raw milk bad too... now gunning for low carb high fat on raw paleo... let's see...

no dogma, no pride, just straight forward experimentation and honest reporting... something raw vegan does to you... I felt that convinced dogma when I began raw vegan and raw fruitarian diets... but you just face reality at when you hit your head on the wall that people need animal foods to thrive.

Some raw vegans just take years before they run out of gas.

[JustAnotherExplorer]

I hear you about having to face reality and hitting your head against that wall, Edwin.  I find it very sad that we need to kill other creatures in order to consume the food that we need to properly thrive.  If I could truly create my own reality then I would be eating a cooked vegetarian diet with raw fruits, some raw veggies and plenty of dairy as those choices fit best with the way my taste buds have been cultured and how I'd like to care for the other intelligent life forms that we share this planet with.  However, I need to live in this world and don't get to pick and choose what my body needs.  Que sera, sera.

[boxcarguy07]

I hear you about having to face reality and hitting your head against that wall, Edwin.  I find it very sad that we need to kill other creatures in order to consume the food that we need to properly thrive.  If I could truly create my own reality then I would be eating a cooked vegetarian diet with raw fruits, some raw veggies and plenty of dairy as those choices fit best with the way my taste buds have been cultured and how I'd like to care for the other intelligent life forms that we share this planet with.  However, I need to live in this world and don't get to pick and choose what my body needs.  Que sera, sera.

Keep in mind that vegans kill as well. Plants are living things are they not?
Just because they don't fit in our paradigm of what is "intelligent" or "sentient" doesn't mean shit.
Life sustains life, and I choose to see it as a beautiful circle of exchanging life forces rather that a cold hard fact of this world.

[JaX]

Keep in mind that vegans kill as well. Plants are living things are they not?
Just because they don't fit in our paradigm of what is "intelligent" or "sentient" doesn't mean shit.
Life sustains life, and I choose to see it as a beautiful circle of exchanging life forces rather that a cold hard fact of this world.

Well thats where "fruititarianism" comes in boxcarguy07. See, there you are actually helping the tree (or whatever) by removing its fruit and eating it. LOL just kidding.

On a more serious note I don't think humans could have gotten where they are today, at the top of the food chain, without killing other animals for food. Maybe it's good for the environment TODAY that there ARE vegans in the world since I think it would be hard to raise enough meat if everyone was on a low-carb RAF diet.

[JustAnotherExplorer]

Plants may not fit our paradigm of what is intelligent or sentient, but they do seem to be incapable of suffering in the way that animals can, which does seem a worthwhile distinction (though I do leave open the possibility, unlikely as I think that it is, that plants do suffer and we just haven't been able to determine this or communicate it).  Also, there are plenty of examples of plants that require destruction in order to thrive and pass on to the next generation.  Fruits are an example, as are the regenerative nature of grasses that need to be grazed.  An even better example are the species that are dependent upon wildfires to burn them before they can release their seeds or have their landscape rejuvenated.

I absolutely see your point about the circle of life and I accept that intellectually 100%, but that doesn't make it easy for me to get rid of the part that wishes it were otherwise.  Of course, I don't spend much time or energy on these wishes, but that does not make them go away entirely.  Maybe it's just something hardwired into my biology or maybe it is acculturation, but I suspect that I will always have more sympathy for the death of the tasty, tasty dog, cow or chicken that could have experienced life and emotions for many, many more years then I will for the near catatonic carrot that was near the end of its life cycle when consumed anyway.

[boxcarguy07]

Fair enough  I see your point
There is a book called "The Secret Life of Plants" that apparently shows that plants actually are aware. It is dismissed as hogwash by most, but some believe in it. I've never read it so I can't say, but I do believe plants have spirits, and very giving spirits at that.

The killing of animals doesn't bother me, even if they might have had years left to live, because I believe life all comes from the same place (God, if you will) and is in motion together. That is why I have no fear of dying, because I know that my remains will perpetuate new life. It's merely the ego that wishes to hold on, and it's this ego that I'm always trying to diminish.

Anyway, as long as you're not beating yourself up over it 

Whoo this is getting rather philosophical

[goodsamaritan]

As for my personal karma or philosophy about killing animals...

I will kill animals that threaten my family... (for example, I hear a crocodile is loose in a creek near us, a crazed rabid dog is loose in the neighborhood)

I will kill animals that are pests and threaten my family... (mosquitoes, rats, cockroaches)

I will kill animals for food... (go fishing just what my family will eat, go hunting just what my family will eat, slaughter what will be eaten or sold for food)

But I feel it is not right to kill animals for mere "sport" like hunting for the sake of killing or displaying the stuffed animal as a trophy.  Hunt or fish only what you will eat... there are some wasteful hunters who will bird hunt killing inedible birds just for the sake of killing; or fishing catch and release... what's the point?

But this is just me.

[JaX]

I absolutely see your point about the circle of life and I accept that intellectually 100%, but that doesn't make it easy for me to get rid of the part that wishes it were otherwise.  Of course, I don't spend much time or energy on these wishes, but that does not make them go away entirely.  Maybe it's just something hardwired into my biology or maybe it is acculturation, but I suspect that I will always have more sympathy for the death of the tasty, tasty dog, cow or chicken that could have experienced life and emotions for many, many more years then I will for the near catatonic carrot that was near the end of its life cycle when consumed anyway.

don't tell me you eat dogs! Out of all the animals the dog is the one which loves and trusts its human master the most. Not to speak of the fact that the dog is a carnivore and therefore has much more accumulated toxins in its meat than animals lower on the food chain.

[JustAnotherExplorer]

I personally have never eaten a dog, but millions if not billions of our fellow humans have.

[JaX]

I personally have never eaten a dog, but millions if not billions of our fellow humans have.

So when you said tasty dog you were just kidding?

[wodgina]

What's wrong with eating dogs..koreans and inuit do it.

[Michael]

I guess the preference for eating/not eating dog, or any other animal (horse, guinea pig etc), is borne of a cultural and historical perception.  I would not personally choose to eat dog (or horse) but can appreciate that it is no different to eating any other animal particularly.  I think that it is only our Western VIEW that the dog is this intelligent, perceptive, loyal friend and is merely a result of a compounding belief system.  Were we to view and treat a cow, for instance, in the same way would it develop/would we begin to recognise similar traits?

I sympathise with your views and sentiments exactly JustAnotherExplorer.  Likewise, it would be my preference to live on a cooked lacto-ovo-vegetarian diet - home grown fruit/veg, eggs from my own chickens, home-made cheese, milk, yoghurt, butter from my own goats/sheep, honey/pollen from my own bee hives.  To me, this would be a truly beautiful existence.  Although I agree with your 'circle of life' comments Keith, I would PREFER it if it was not necessary to take the life of another animal.  I would PREFER the glorious variety in taste, colour, texture and smell of the aforementioned foods.  Perhaps this stems from a life of eating these foods and living in a world where they're abundant and accepted as 'normal'?  Perhaps if I had been born into a world where I were raised the RAF way these feelings would not exist.  I honestly don't know.

But, I accept without harbouring regret or negativity that it's important for humans to consume animal flesh for a healthy existence within this physical realm.

Michael

[Sully]

But I feel it is not right to kill animals for mere "sport" like hunting for the sake of killing or displaying the stuffed animal as a trophy.  Hunt or fish only what you will eat... there are some wasteful hunters who will bird hunt killing inedible birds just for the sake of killing; or fishing catch and release... what's the point?

But this is just me.

I agree with you.