Weird reaction to honey + (butter/milk)?

[Rawr]

Ok,
here is the puzzle:


0. I'm eating 100% PD/RPD foods.

1. Normally, my hands and feet are always nicely warm.

2. I have noticed no problems from eating butter and milk (both raw) except maybe a bit of "passing winds", but I can't say for sure it isn't from something else.

3. I have a jar of honey at home.

It's crystallized. It has definitely not been pasteurized or (consciously) heated above 45 C/113 F. It's also "unheated" - however "unheated" in this beekeeper's case most likely means "not heated after crystallization" (I still have to ask him - the honey was bought for me by my mother, not by myself). It's most likely been centrifuged - maybe it went above 93 F/34 C, maybe not.


4. When I eat this honey with butter and/or milk, I reliably and consistently get cold hands afterwards.
(I haven't measured how long this lasts, my estimate is between 1-3 hours.)

I suspected the sugar in honey, but here's the "glitch"...

5. When I eat a good portion of a sugary ripe pineapple (I don't eat much of other fruits these days) with avocado or even without any fat, I do NOT get this type of a reaction.


So the question is: What's causing it?


My only somewhat plausible hypothesis I came up with so far is this:

- the honey indeed is raw -> therefore...
- the insulin-like substance (amylase or whatever it's called) actually causes a drop in my blood sugar
    - either because there's "too much" of it in honey, or...
    - or because the sugar absorption is slowed down by butter/milk but the insulin-like substance absorbs more readily.
(So far I have NOT tried taking the honey alone and watching my possible reaction.)


Does anyone have another hypothesis, explanation, or similar experience?

Is it even correct that low blood sugar can cause cold hands? I don't really know how I "came up" with that association.

[TylerDurden]

Whatever the case, mixing honey and butter, however raw, sounds a bit artificial to me as a food. Sort of like mixing raw liver with raw avocado and raw veggie juice or whatever.

[raw-al]

My guesses are;

1. the honey is not raw. I cannot eat honey that is not raw. Period. I have issues. It causes me to get upset stomach (Pitta in Ayurveda) sore teeth and according to the Ay theory will cause skin issues specifically, but also other pitta issues.

2. Honey may not live well inside you for whatever reason. Not everybody can eat everything. No matter how raw petroleum is when it comes out of the ground it is not useable by anyone other than a select few : )

Milk, according to Ayurveda, is pregnant with air and thus your gas issue.

My suggestion is.. that even though I have never met you and not diagnosed you, you should avoid that combination.

What time of year does this happen? ie. cold/damp/hot/dry/winter/summer etc?
Are you slim/overweight/tall/short/strong/weak/healthy/active/strong or poor digestion?

[Rawr]

What time of year does this happen? ie. cold/damp/hot/dry/winter/summer etc?
Are you slim/overweight/tall/short/strong/weak/healthy/active/strong or poor digestion?

Well, it happens at the "room temperature". Which is somewhere around 20 C/68 F I guess. Nothing extreme.

And I'm still sort of weak - I've been on the PD/RPD diet only 4-5 weeks. And it still hasn't been what I would consider close enough to a "full" &"ideal" version of PD/RPD yet.

My suggestion is... ...you should avoid that combination.

I already do avoid it. I will try it again when I have really unheated honey or honeycomb at home. It just made me curious.

[raw-al]

I know that it took me quite awhile to adapt to the Raw Primal Diet. Probably 6 months to completely adapt. Not sure if this is a factor as honey, milk and butter were instant hits and created zero issues for me.

[SaintAndScholar]

what is all that Ayurvedic crap ?

mixing honey and butter ? , no wonder you feel poorly.

try honey and milk

[raw-al]

what is all that Ayurvedic crap ?

mixing honey and butter ? , no wonder you feel poorly.

try honey and milk

Mixing honey and butter is like manna from heaven.

OK so what's your problem with Ayurveda?

[Dorothy]

Al - My guess is that his problem is that he doesn't know what Ayurveda is.

Honey is one of the few foods where even relatively low temps destroy lots of the enzymes. 113 is too high for honey.

[PaleoPhil]

My only somewhat plausible hypothesis I came up with so far is this:

- the honey indeed is raw -> therefore...
- the insulin-like substance (amylase or whatever it's called) actually causes a drop in my blood sugar
    - either because there's "too much" of it in honey, or...
    - or because the sugar absorption is slowed down by butter/milk but the insulin-like substance absorbs more readily.
(So far I have NOT tried taking the honey alone and watching my possible reaction.)


Does anyone have another hypothesis, explanation, or similar experience?

Is it even correct that low blood sugar can cause cold hands? I don't really know how I "came up" with that association.

Instead of guessing, why not test buy a blood glucose monitor and test your blood sugar? I don't know about where you live, but in this country there are accurate ones sold for under $10 at the Walmart discount department store. I have tested multiple raw honeys and they all raise my blood sugar. Occasionally there is a drop (and those cases could be due to testing error or flukes), but most of the time there is a raise.

Most unfermented raw honeys tend to make me feel colder, especially if I eat a lot, but fermented raw honey doesn't have this effect on me and sometimes even seems to make me feel slightly warmer. YMMV.

[raw-al]

Phil,

As I am not familiar with that process could you explain what to do with said meter and what you would learn from it? Are their other types of devices that are cheap and reliable such as for cholesterol?

Once our company nurse checked me for cholesterol. At the time I was eating  (vege) large amounts of ghee and it showed no cholesterol, ie too low to measure.

I am a bit of a gauge weenie. 

[PaleoPhil]

Phil,

As I am not familiar with that process could you explain what to do with said meter and what you would learn from it?

You stick your finger with the tiny, near painless needle to get a small drop of blood, which you dab onto the test strip and the meter then gives you a blood glucose reading.

Are their other types of devices that are cheap and reliable such as for cholesterol?

There are bloodless devices being researched (http://www.technologyreview.com/Biotech/20343/page1/), but I haven't heard of any reaching the market yet.

Once our company nurse checked me for cholesterol. At the time I was eating  (vege) large amounts of ghee and it showed no cholesterol, ie too low to measure.

Did they do a finger-prick cholesterol test or blood draw with a needle?

[raw-al]

Did they do a finger-prick cholesterol test or blood draw with a needle?

It was a device that pricked a hole and then measured with a strip... I think ?
She said it was not absolutely accurate but ballpark.

[PaleoPhil]

Yup, that's the fingerprick cholesterol test all right. That's very similar to the blood glucose test.

[Dorothy]

Ya know Phil - honey doesn't make my blood sugars go up much - almost nothing does except processed sugary stuff - but I still feel lousy if I eat too much natural raw sweet stuff. I've been thinking that even though my blood sugars don't fluctuate much it doesn't mean that my pancreas, adrenals etc. don't have to work harder than they want to to keep my blood glucose levels steady.

I've been experimenting a lot to find that "sweet" spot where I have lots of energy from the carbs but not too much stress on my system - even though my blood sugars are stable.

But you are right - those blood glucose testers can be real handy usually with figuring out what gets a person out of whack.

Every time you talk about fermented honey I swear that I'm going to try it. 

[raw-al]

Yup, that's the fingerprick cholesterol test all right. That's very similar to the blood glucose test.

Tried WallyWorld and sure enough sub 10. but the kicker was the $ 80. box of testing strips. Ouch.

[PaleoPhil]

The ReliOn test strips I bought are $36 for 100 -- which comes out to 36 cents per test strip (http://www.walmart.com/ip/ReliOn-Confirm-micro-Blood-Glucose-Test-Strips-100-count/16795579) and a 20 count is $8.98 (http://www.walmart.com/ip/ReliOn-Confirm-Micro-Blood-Glucose-Test-Strips-20ct/15442743)

I already had a glucose meter, but Kurt Harris mentioned that BG meters can be rather inaccurate and Chris Kresser said that the ReliOn meter was the only one that he found to be quite accurate, so I bought that one too for $8.98 (http://www.walmart.com/ip/ReliOn-Ultima-Blood-Glucose-Monitor/3555238), and it's easier to use because it requires less blood. I have found that the Relion tends to report about 10 mg/dl higher blood sugar than the other meter--a OneTouch Ultra2. Other than Chris' recommendation and Relion's claim that their meter was proven reliable, I don't have a way to tell which meter is more accurate. I do prefer the ReliOn, so I'll probably continue to use that one going forward. Plus, as I get a better sense of what my levels are with various foods at various quantities, I eventually won't need to use the monitor much any more, especially if I develop better ability to consume average amounts of carby foods without generating severe BG spikes.