Questions about Primal Diet

[Ioanna]

sorry to get off topic, but CK, which magnesium supplement do you use again?

[CarnivorousApe]

I forgot about veggie juice.  Good point. 

Also, excellent point about raw meat phobias.

And KD, there are plenty of us moderators and members here who use other alternative healing methods BESIDES diet. I use magnesium and vitamin D-3 supplements regularly, and also supplement with different herbs sometimes.   I also am very into posture work from Esther Gokhale, and lots and lots of other stuff.  I'm no "blind paleo re-enactor", so to speak.  I do what works.   Eating pretty much 100% raw really seems to keep my body young and healthy, relatively, so I keep doing it.

That's the whole point of discussion - determine, what really works long term. For smoker a cigarette works, because it temporarily removes his cravings and symptoms of detoxification. But it is not going to help him long term. Having said that, there are smokers who live past 100 years.

D3 supplements perfectly fit paleo diet as a replacement for sunlight, but I don't see how milk and other recommendations by AV fit into picture.

I prefer to see what is there, not trying to read mind of AV. Based on what I saw in his book, there was no mentioning about transitional nature of his diet.

My goal is not to blame AV or tout paleo diet, I just want to have answers to questions that puzzle me. If there is better way to evaluate diet than evolutionary perspective I would accept it (and change my nick ).

[TylerDurden]

Can you provide a sample when eating paleo style worsened somebody's condition in modern environment?
Do you think that adding more damaging neolithic foods (like milk) would improve somebody long term in a contemporary settings?
We are not talking about healing or transition here. It seemed to me that AV recommended milk as constant part of the diet.

My health was ruined on a cooked, palaeolithic diet. And dairy, for sure, was even worse in this regard.

[CarnivorousApe]

My health was ruined on a cooked, palaeolithic diet. And dairy, for sure, was even worse in this regard.

I have some doubts that "cooked" and "palaeolithic" can be used in one sentence Anyway, cooked palaeolithic is good as transitional diet. I am surprised however that you ruined your health with it. So you were ok on SAD diet and after switching to cooked palaeolithic became sick?

[TylerDurden]

No, my health was shattered on a SAD/SMD diet. When I switched to a cooked, palaeolithic diet, my health worsened a lot more. By that stage, due to near-destroyed glands, I had lost the ability to digest any cooked animal foods. This resulted in extremely painful stomach-aches after I ate any cooked animal foods, along with rectal bleeding and chronic, very painful constipation. I also got even more tired than before, and anxiety levels increased.Oh, and I got extra skin-inflammation.

[CarnivorousApe]

No, my health was shattered on a SAD/SMD diet. When I switched to a cooked, palaeolithic diet, my health worsened a lot more. By that stage, due to near-destroyed glands, I had lost the ability to digest any cooked animal foods. This resulted in extremely painful stomach-aches after I ate any cooked animal foods, along with rectal bleeding and chronic, very painful constipation. I also got even more tired than before, and anxiety levels increased.Oh, and I got extra skin-inflammation.

Similar to my symptoms. But they appear when I try to eat low-carb plus crazy amounts of meat some "gurus" recommend. This recommendation goes against my common sense as in my opinion never people had such amounts of meat for long periods with that little carbs and fiber.

I reduced amount of meat, I only eat it with raw vegetables and leaves plus a glass of kefir (for enzymes). I also eat cooked potatoes or yam. Increased amount of fats (eating lean was another stupid idea, promoted by some gurus in early days of paleo). This solved constipation problems and it seems closer to what people ate during late paleo times when they started to cook food.

I feel much better on such diet than on SAD diet (gone all kinds of nasty digestive problems that bugged me since early childhood and became worse every year)

However I feel it is not optimal (having to take kefir does not seem natural to me) and I already felt that raw food does magic, so I'm transitioning to it slowly, thank you for great post on this.

[TylerDurden]

I should add that only by reducing my meat-intake to zero did those problems I mentioned, disappear. While symptoms were less frequent on a cooked diet with 20% meat, they still happened after I ate any cooked animal food. Incidentally, I have no problems now, whatsoever on a diet very high in raw meat.

[CarnivorousApe]

I should add that only by reducing my meat-intake to zero did those problems I mentioned, disappear. While symptoms were less frequent on a cooked diet with 20% meat, they still happened after I ate any cooked animal food. Incidentally, I have no problems now, whatsoever on a diet very high in raw meat.

Makes sense. You can reduce damage done by cooked meat but not get rid of totally. That's why I'm switching to raw myself. But eating cooked meat is not paleo anyway.
I wonder if KD is going to bring a lot of samples of people suffering on raw paleo diet that he mentioned.

[KD]

The philosophy is actually that even if people were doing the exact 'holistic' stuff (which really is not emphasized at all) and were locked in the same room, they would still be optimizing their health with these foods over just muscle meats and fruits. If people disagree they should present their cases against the results of others, not their results on one program to another or based on how they feel without any objective analysis of their current health shared publicly.

Give a modern person the actual breakdowns of blood, whole animal parts, bugs, bacterias, sunshine, lack of environmental damage, and a supposed abundant food energy that an ancient person had, sure that can work. It still doesn't form a limit on whether it would even be the most optimal and people can still improve upon such if they desire.

People can have a variety of personal successes or failures, but when they start attacking this conceptual possibility they are clearly ignoring reality for beliefs. Mimicking/replacing these and doing things that heal/repair are always more important than restricting ones diet to suspected non-problematic foods. This is automatically conclusive if you have any examples of people who remove 0 such foods and have done better. This is especially true when people label things as 'natural' with known, and unknown consequences, like ocean fishing or eating exclusively muscle meats and eating without their corresponding bones/blood/organs - missing the very nutrients that were replaced throughout our history with things like milk and processing plant food. This 'wholeness', or at the very least nutrients and minerals (that are absent in meat and fruit), are essential for human health, often in any form one can get.

As for examples, there are plenty of people on to other things, or those failing to even have what would be a regular standard of basic health and rationalizing it with their following a set 'natural' program which 'must be good', and also lots about these programs which are actually great and thus can be plenty good for many folks. These positives have little to do with the purism aspect but with removing some obvious poor habits, adding in healthy proteins/fats/bacterias and so forth and the fact that not everyone is set up to do things like immediately manufacture lactase etc. and compounded with the possibility that alot of PD tools maybe arn't what people need either. Its making health decisions on a case by case basis that is important thing to walk away with..and making sure one actually gets proper nutrition over ideals, not that there has to be some magic to honey or dairy or whatever.

[reyyzl]

Btw, did AV shared his own medical documents or his son, or that girl Owanza, who claimed to cure from multiple tumours?

I believe Owanza was a married adult with a teenage child when the story began.

[CarnivorousApe]

I believe Owanza was a married adult with a teenage child when the story began.

As far as I understood they had romantic relationship with AV which was ended with deathcap mushroom.. Tragic. But the question remains - why not disclose medical records?

[reyyzl]

As far as I understood they had romantic relationship with AV which was ended with deathcap mushroom.. Tragic. But the question remains - why not disclose medical records?

You're saying that Owanza, Aajonus, and her teenage child had a romantic relationship all together?

I don't know CarnivorousApe, have you asked Aajonus for the medical records?

[CarnivorousApe]

You're saying that Owanza, Aajonus, and her teenage child had a romantic relationship all together?

I don't know CarnivorousApe, have you asked Aajonus for the medical records?

The book I read didn't say anything about Owanza child. So it's unknown for me what relationship the child had with who.
Do you think I should ask AV for medical records? Probably the only thing he is waiting for is my request.

[letsdoiteczema]

The book I read didn't say anything about Owanza child. So it's unknown for me what relationship the child had with who.
Do you think I should ask AV for medical records? Probably the only thing he is waiting for is my request.

@ CarnivorousApe

Yes I would want to see the medical records as well of Aajonus's claims of having multiple types of cancer. I wonder why he hasn't scanned them and placed medical records on his website for the public to see. If people say he has forged his medical records, at least they have the option of checking medical records at the hospital.

It's not that I don't believe his nutrition theories. I've cured 95% of my severe full body eczema with Raw Paleo (without raw honey, dairy, eggs, nuts and veg). But I think everyone would like to see some evidence.

Just curious, CarnivorousApe, what's your relationship with Aajonus? You seen him before?

[CarnivorousApe]

No, I haven't seen him in person, just a couple of videos on the internet. One was funny - where he was eating raw chicken on some show in front of a pack of douches who pretended to be doctors.

Generally what he says makes sense, except the points above. Although his recommendation to drink milk is crazy in my point of view. It might promote cancer with all growth hormones and high sugar content. I am lucky that I get severe diarrhoea before I can consume significant amounts of it

I'm just curious why I couldn't find any proofs of his claims, or at least explanation why there is none.

[DopeDivinity]

This is also why he keeps that stuff about rotten meat eating and eating your own semen super top secret. 

So he says you should eat your own semen? Fuckin' Sweet. I've been doing that for a bit now already! Scoore!

With that out of the way, I wanted to say, KD, that I am enjoying your posts, and appreciate them. I resonate with much of what you're saying... atleast what I can wrap my head around. Sometimes after reading for a bit, I start to lose context of what I'm reading, and snowball into CoNfUsIoN. DUDE WHO AND WHAT THE FUCK AM I AGAIN AND WHAT THE HELL IS THIS BRIGHT SQUARE IN FRONT OF ME

 I will carry on with reading the rest of this thread now. And maybe jack off later and consume my GodNectar. Chea girl

[letsdoiteczema]

Generally what he says makes sense, except the points above. Although his recommendation to drink milk is crazy in my point of view. It might promote cancer with all growth hormones and high sugar content. I am lucky that I get severe diarrhoea before I can consume significant amounts of it

I agree, most of what he says (from what I've read, haven't finished his WWTL book yet...) is true. Rotten meat (should really be called "fermented", since cooked meat rots, raw healthy meat 'ferments') completely cured my severe depression and suicidal thoughts, emotional numbness, attraction to death etc. Pretty amazing stuff. Though I see from a little Googling that Aajonus is not the first person in the world to eat "fermented meat", many cultures have been eating it forever (Iceland rotten shark, French maggot rotten cheese, Chinese century eggs, Sweden rotten fish Surstromming (sp?) etc.)

I experimented with raw cheese labelled unpasteurized (but salted) in the early days of transitioning to RPD and immediately had mosquito bite-like bumps appear under my right eye and below my nose - an obvious allergic reaction. I was scared s***less at the time as I was still recovering from severe full body eczema rashes. I immediately drank 90% of my passed urine in the next 2 hours and miraculously the bumps went away in 2 hours. I know this is a miracle because in the past, whenever I got allergic reactions, it would take 3-4 days for the hives/bumps to go away.

I'm just curious why I couldn't find any proofs of his claims, or at least explanation why there is none.

I think the problem is the Medical community that funds and publishes scientific research NEVER EVER is interested in researching raw fats, or raw meats. They're only interested in proving the effectiveness of their patented drugs to earn $$$ and more $$$. They can't profit from any positive benefits found with raw meats/fats, unless Big Pharma starts buying grass-fed farms! 

[Alive]

As well as no funding there would also be a mental block in researchers to a 100% raw food diet since it is culturally alien to them and their upbringing. This would be especially true concerning research on raw meat eating since there is a projected consensus from the 'health system' that raw meat is hazardous, in which case they may even think it unethical to encourage it during experiments.

[CarnivorousApe]

There is huge mind shift for dieticians to stop prescribing low fat, high carb ("healthy" cereals of course), hard to imagine when they are going to be ready for accepting raw meat.

[letsdoiteczema]

Yea, it's hard to imagine how much misery (in the form of fat cravings, the resultant binges and immense guilt/fear) these nutritionists are causing people with their low-fat diets. I see people close to me eating every couple hours with their low-fat diets. They're never full. Some of them probably even wake up and eat.

Its kind of depressing that they've already gained a big belly from being scared of fat all their lives and eating "healthy grains" and they still think fat is the culprit. It really is not their fault that they have this fat phobia so deeply rooted in their mind - the mainstream diet recommendations are to be blamed.

hard to imagine when they are going to be ready for accepting raw meat.

Probably take 40-50 years, or maybe never...who knows. Western Medicine has such a strong hold on media, the truth may never get into the mainstream as long as Western Medicine exists.

The thing that bothers me is how a ~100-year old theory (Western Medicine) manages to trump 5000-6000 year old Traditional Chinese Medicine or Indian Medicine (Ayurveda) in becoming the mainstream way of medicine. Amazing and tragic.

[CarnivorousApe]

Fat phobia started not longer than 50 years ago, prior to that people in the West knew that bacon and eggs is healthy and if you want to shed weight, exclude sugar, bread and potatoes.
I think low fat ideology is closely related to vegetarianism, which is related to hippy movements which started around 60s.
I am sure 90 percent of people at this forum were vegetarians or vegans initially, this is trap that few lucky ones avoid on the path to health.

[TylerDurden]

Only raw fat is healthy, cooked fat, especially cooked animal fat is far worse than anything else. I mean, I've read that as long as one is eating 100%  plant foods raised via manure that one can still get all relevant nutrients like vitamin b12.

[CarnivorousApe]

Only raw fat is healthy, cooked fat, especially cooked animal fat is far worse than anything else. I mean, I've read that as long as one is eating 100%  plant foods raised via manure that one can still get all relevant nutrients like vitamin b12.

Tyler, are you sure 100% plant food, even with b12 supplementation is healthy long term? (>1year)
Raw fats are superior to cooked fats, no question, but I still think cooked fats beat vegan diet by a long shot.

PS: I would rephrase. For someone changing diet would you recommend become raw vegan and gradually introduce raw meats or go low carb with cooked meats and gradually change them to raw?

[TylerDurden]

The former is a much easier transition for many. Indeed most go the former route rather than the latter.

There was some Iranian sect which was vegan and survived fine because they didn't wash their vegetables much. They raised their vegetables using human manure which contained B12 plus, since they didn't wash the veg much, they also ate insects along with the leaves.

[letsdoiteczema]

@ TylerDurden

I've wanted to say this for quite a while: In the past 6 months of scouring this forum for the millions of dietary / lifestyle questions that pop in my mind every day, I have consistently found your posts to be extremely helpful, and usually backed with sound scientific references etc.

I'm probably not the 1st one to request that you write a book (hardcopy or softcopy) to summarize the RPD diet/lifestyle. I'm hoping that you will also have a website or blog someday. I would gladly buy 10 copies of your ebooks to distribute to my friends and family to teach them about RPD. Right now, it is a very difficult task to send them link after link about AGES in cooked meat/fat etc.

Oh and I nearly forgot to say millions times thank you for founding and managing this incredible, and in my case, life-saving forum. Thank you for saving my life, reducing a lot of suffering, and creating so much more happiness in my life. It is really priceless. Thank you.