Is it just me or is Aajonus not looking so good?

[Fermenter Zym]

http://youtu.be/-JeJ0lwH3ic

[Charlie4444]

From what I can find out about the truth about this man, I generally believe him, and think he looks good enough, and probably better than how he'd look eating SAD.

[TylerDurden]

Here's a longer video:-
Interview with Dr. Aajonus Vonderplanitz on The Primal Diet - Raw Meat and Fat

 Do NOT judge a man by his appearance. It's always fallacious as people, especially gurus, will use things like special lighting or botox or plastic surgery to enhance their looks. And, anyway, judging from my own past experience, one can look deceptively healthy even when one is very ill, and quite drained even when one is super-healthy after a year or two on a healthy diet.

[Fermenter Zym]

Plus I just looked up his birthday and realized he's sixty-five haha. But I'm just used to him looking even better than he does in that video, I guess.

[Dorothy]

Well - from what he described of his health before eating raw he would have long been dead.

But......... every other guru from every other diet seems to have to go through scrutiny of their looks here.... so it's a legitimate question Zym.

In the video you posted he is lit from ABOVE which is THE most unflattering way to light someone. It made his forehead light up like a lightbulb and made his eyes look sunken back into his head - like it would anyone.

So.... the question is..... does AV make claims that his diet will keep you young? He doesn't look particularly good for his age........ but he sure does look better than a person that has been dead for 40 years like he would have been. 

[svrn]

He looks like a healthy and sturdy 65 year old to me.

[Dorothy]

In the video that Zym posted he didn't look that great - but then again the lighting and the camera angle! I would have guessed him to be at least 65 - but he looked better in Tyler's video. Younger or better lighting or what - who knows?
The point is that he sure doesn't look any younger than any other guy that age on any other decent diet. But........ he might be claiming that the diet keeps you looking young like other gurus do for their diets. He just seems to claim that it healed up his diseases and makes him feel good - and if that's the case - does it really matter if he looks like he's aging - I mean - because we all are right?

[svrn]

Considering everything hes been through, the fact that he looks his age at all is a miracle. I really dont see any indications of him being unhealthy in that first video at all, I dont know what everyones talking about.

[Dorothy]

Not unhealthy - just normal signs of aging. The thinning hair, more wrinkles, sagging skin and skin coloration stuff.

I know it sounded like just pure tongue-in-cheek - but I really meant it when I said that he looks much better than he would have if he were dead for 40 years like he would have been otherwise.

You see, here on the board there is a tendency to tear apart the looks of raw vegan gurus even if they just look their age like AV does even if they say that the diet solved serious health problems for them.

That's why I ask if AV has ever claimed that the primal diet will reverse aging or not. When someone claims that then these kinds of discussions are pertinent. If they don't - then imho then analyzing all the signs of aging or appearance in general doesn't mean all that much.... regarding any of them.

[PaleoPhil]

> "Aging men and women could create and maintain youth by eating meat twice daily, about 1 pound daily. Men do better when they drink 1 cup raw plain kefir, if available, as often as possible with meat."

> "AGING in our “advanced” society is basically a process of bodydeterioration leading toward disease and death. That deterioration is caused by accumulated toxicity, limited cellular reproduction, cellular mutations, and cellular exhaustion. Aging and deterioration do not have to be synonymous.

Symptoms: loss of hair moisture, dexterity, skin tone, muscle tone, flesh tone, and strength.

Consuming a raw diet in which 40% of calories are raw fat prevents the “normal” process of body deterioration."

> "BALDING is the rapid or gradual loss of hair growth, usually occurring from metal poisoning from canned foods, aluminum cooking utensils, deodorants, shampoos, soaps, and medication. Poor oxygen utilization is sometimes causative. It is also believed that poor thyroid function is causative, but my experiments disproved that theory."

~Aajonus Vonderplanitz, We Want to Live

When people set themselves up as diet/health gurus, giving advice to others and charging money for it and claiming they know what causes balding and that they have the cure, I think they open themselves up to questions like "Is it just me or is Aajonus not looking so good?" and "Why are you losing your hair if your recommendations prevent hair loss?" These are fair questions and I don't think the people asking them should be attacked just for asking them. Asking questions of gurus should be encouraged, not criticized or silenced, especially in this forum that claims not to officially promote guru worship. I feel empathy for Aajonus as a person, but I don't see why questions can't be asked. Maybe Aajonus would have good answers to such questions. Maybe he would say that balding is normal for someone who is in his sixties, or maybe he would give a different, and perhaps more interesting, answer. We'll never learn if we're afraid to ask.

"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence" ~Carl Sagan

"Although this may seem a paradox, all exact science is dominated by the idea of approximation. When a man tells you that he knows the exact truth about anything, you are safe in inferring that he is an inexact man." ~Bertrand Russell

"It requires one genius to formulate one hypothesis that is sound. It requires ten to nail one that is unsound in its coffin." ~Ernest Rutherford

[Dorothy]

Ahhh - see - there ya go! Making claims like that Phil does indeed open him up to scrutiny doesn't it? 

[PaleoPhil]

Heh, heh, yeah, thanks for understanding, Dorothy. I actually like the guy for some reason, despite his charging people exhorbitant fees (perhaps in part because his advice is at least far better than the conventional advice and I would rather people pay lots of money for decent dietary advice than for drugs or surgery, plus he comes across with an appealing personality and is willing to publicly share extremely controversial opinions and take the hits that come with that), but the skeptic in me says we should encourage questions of anyone, even the best of the best, no matter how unpopular this may be. The really good ones will be able to provide decent answers to the toughest questions. When someone responds by dismissing the questions or criticizing the questioner, it raises more questions for me, FWIW. And I try to apply this standard equally across the board.

And thanks again for your wonderful posts, Dorothy. Of all the hundreds of folks I've seen post on the Internet, you are one of the uber best. Your posts rarely fail to lift my spirits, even when you disagree with me. LOL You were met with some suspicion when you first posted in this forum, but I hope by now you've proven your worth to others. May love and laughter light your days, always.

[Dorothy]

Phil, today was a hard day - but your post made me cry with good feeling. I sure needed that!

And yeah - I totally get where you're coming from. Asking questions is why we all ended up here right? Sometimes the manner in which a person answers a question or tries to side-step an issue can say more than anything.

I sometimes wonder if some of these guru types look back decades later and say to themselves, "Why oh why did I ever say anything at all about aging when I was still so young!?"

I heard a cute joke recently: Why is the chicken the smartest animal in the barnyard?

Because she brags AFTER she lays the egg.

[CitrusHigh]

I would expect a proper diet to facilitate youthful, supple skin, on in to old age. The way we can see that this is not unreasonable is to look at older members of the animal kingdom (not that we are apart from it, but nonhumans in anycase), if they make it to such an age, the wear is generally cosmetic/mechanical (due to physical lifestyle ie hunting prey, evading predators, territoriality), but they are in otherwise good condition.

Aajonus is not a good example of that even though he probably does eat immaculately (with the exception of dairy, he is pretty hard headed about dairy and might not recognize it as harmful to himself even if there were signs). The core reasons he's not a good example are that he's had terrible surgery and pharmaceutical poisons if his claims are true. The body is a wonderfully resilient structure, but things like chemo, radiation and surgery can damage it beyond it's restorative ability.

If you don't have nice supple skin at least in to your 40's and 50's then it's time to tweak your diet. I've been thinking about this a ton lately as I pay extra close attention to folks when I'm at the co-ops. I see the vegans and vegetarians with sallow skin and rotting teeth, stringy hair and looking pale and sickly. I see people with tons of acne loaded down with sugars, carbs and processed foods. I see balding fellas with lots of grain in their baskets. I just want to shake these people and say "how long will you continue down this road when the proof is staring back at you ever time you look into the mirror that your way of life isn't working?"

Or a lady who bought 5 lbs of morels from me today. She's a green witch, master gardener, herbalist, makes tinctures, lots of lacto fermented foods and is in to pastured meats.  In spite of that her hair is stringy, skin splotchy, some rotted teeth .....and she's unsure about raw meat?

I like to model on success. When I want to do something right, I look for someone who's got results AND what they're saying makes sense. I myself have thought that Aajonus didn't look very good on most occasions, but due to mainstream medicine's interference I had to overlook that because the raw way of eating just makes too much sense to be ignored. Now that I've experienced it, I can look in the mirror and see the proof for myself. I can also make myself look gaunt and sickly by  switching to crappy food and/or overloading my system with too much ganja, or otherwise stressing or tox-ing it out.

But as long as I'm getting my raw organs and a few greens here and there as well as some sun, I 'look' healthy AND I've got loads of energy and a good disposition.

I'm excited to see the first generations of children growing up mostly raw, will be neat to see how they differ developmentally, physically and emotionally as they age!

Genes of course are a factor, but more in that if you're eating shitty food you can still look young for a while if you've got the right genes. But if you're eating properly from birth, you genes should be almost irrelevant until you get in to the upper reaches of old age.

[Dorothy]

Let'sCopOut - when you are in your 60's, 70's, 80's, 90's and above and show us your picture then we can all cluck really loud in celebration. 

[CitrusHigh]

Lol are you stoned?  im not slating myself as an example in old age. Ive done a looot of pharms, lived on the worst kind of processed foods until 19 yrs old and was a sad stress case for all of my formative years, so, eeeeasy girl. I OWE Aaj my health, there are few people on the planet I admire and respect as I do him.

[Dorothy]

Oh that's really too bad Lets - we sure could use a great example! 

You do hit the nail on the head - there aren't many if any gurus that didn't find out how to eat well without first being really sick and fixing themselves so they all have that excuse. That's part of where the fervor to be a guru comes from probably. If AV didn't have the experiences he did when young he probably wouldn't have the will to stand up against most of the world like he does.

[Rawr]

Hmm, let me think... Aajonus had:

-autism
-diabetes
-few hundred of heart attacks (or something that he later intrerpreted as that)
-4 or 5 types of cancer
-cauterized spine
-MANY poisons put into his body, radiation, and some surgeries done on top of that
-died 40 something years ago.  - according to the white-coat mafia servants called MDs

For me, the way he looks right now is quite good compared to what he would look like had he not done the changes he's done in his life.


But for me, the most persuading thing isn't his current look, but the fact that most of his "belief system" around health makes more sense than what most of us (and most people generally) used to base our health-affecting decisions and actions on.


Of course, Aajonus is no "god" and I don't like people calling him a "guru" either.

I consider him a human that:
- has helped me let go of crap that I didn't consider questioning and thinking about before
- has been and still is somewhat of a "virtual guide/companion" on the way to better health and happiness


He is not perfect and hasn't figured "everything there is" out - but he has sure figured out / questioned a LOT to be an inspiration for me and I am thankful for him sharing his experience and ideas through his books and other recorded "materials" there.

[Wattlebird]

Many healers and shamans do what they do BECAUSE they managed to find a way to heal themselves. That is why they are drawn to healing others. Some of these folk had been at deaths door, with years of poor health, but have managed to turn things right around.
I also think one needs to be careful of judging a book by its cover. How one should or shouldn't look does not always correspond with what we perecive it should. Judging a book by its cover is often misleading. Sometimes book covers may have what we may believe to be 'flaws', yet inside contain an energy and spirit which is remarkable.

[PaleoPhil]

Phil, today was a hard day - but your post made me cry with good feeling. I sure needed that!

You're welcome!

And yeah - I totally get where you're coming from. Asking questions is why we all ended up here right? Sometimes the manner in which a person answers a question or tries to side-step an issue can say more than anything.

Exactly.

I sometimes wonder if some of these guru types look back decades later and say to themselves, "Why oh why did I ever say anything at all about aging when I was still so young!?"

Yeah, when I first went Paleo and for the first time ever I got some hair re-growth for several months and told a few people, including one who clearly didn't believe me. I felt silly some months later when it was clear I was losing hair again.

I heard a cute joke recently: Why is the chicken the smartest animal in the barnyard?

Because she brags AFTER she lays the egg.

Yes, cute.

---*---

When folks respond to/comment on the thread question, it would seem fair to keep in mind the context of these and other claims by Aajonus:

> "Aging men and women could create and maintain youth by eating meat twice daily, about 1 pound daily. Men do better when they drink 1 cup raw plain kefir, if available, as often as possible with meat."

> "AGING in our “advanced” society is basically a process of bodydeterioration leading toward disease and death. That deterioration is caused by accumulated toxicity, limited cellular reproduction, cellular mutations, and cellular exhaustion. Aging and deterioration do not have to be synonymous.

Symptoms: loss of hair moisture, dexterity, skin tone, muscle tone, flesh tone, and strength.

Consuming a raw diet in which 40% of calories are raw fat prevents the “normal” process of body deterioration."

> "BALDING is the rapid or gradual loss of hair growth, usually occurring from metal poisoning from canned foods, aluminum cooking utensils, deodorants, shampoos, soaps, and medication. Poor oxygen utilization is sometimes causative. It is also believed that poor thyroid function is causative, but my experiments disproved that theory."

~Aajonus Vonderplanitz, We Want to Live

When someone makes extraordinary claims like those, it's not  judging a book by its cover for Zym or anyone else to politely ask why the person who's making the claims doesn't appear to exemplify them himself in a way that fits the claims--especially when he charges big fees for the advice. It's a fair question. Maybe Aajonus has an answer. And Dorothy was right when she seemed to hint that defensive responses to such questions only raises more questions and are not very assuring. Aajonus looks good to me, but it doesn't look like he has halted "aging" or balding in his own case.

[CitrusHigh]

Don't get me wrong, I think Aajonus looks good for his age, but not near as good as he would have looked without all the damage and not near as good as some non-raw, but holistic folks I know in his age range.

Diet isn't the only factor, mental health and a happy life outlook (ie glass half full) play a large part as well as genes of course, but diet is certainly huge.

Also I'm surprised at you wattlebird. I know you to be a student of the old ways and presumably you've studied tracking, I'd think you would recognize that everything sends out very tangible concentric rings which, with the right attunement/awareness, you can perceive.  It's not a matter of judging the cover, it is a matter of perceiving that energy along with the superficial signs (wrinkles, balding, stringy, dull hair, blemishes, splotchy skin, dull skin, dull mental faculties, slow response time, etc) Energy, being subtle energy, along with body language.

[Dorothy]

I think if we are not going to judge a book by its cover and only consider personal claims of sicknesses that have been cured then we in all fairness would have to give that same consideration to all the raw vegan book writers and teachers too (aka gurus). Making different standards for judging proponents of different diets just because we agree with some and not others does little to flush out what we can honestly expect to experience ourselves.

Most radical diet writers make pretty extreme claims about the stopping or reversing of natural aging. That's really where they open themselves up to questions like Zym's.

But how many books are you going to sell and how much money can you charge for consultations for a statement like: "This worked for me and makes me feel good, seems to make sense and might work for you too." and that's it!

Again - being extreme is part of what AV has had to offer to break down barriers - but Zym's question when taken in the light of his statements that his diet stops aging is a valid one. How many times have people here said that the raw vegan diet obviously doesn't work based upon how people look even if the person that they are looking at says that eating raw vegan cured their cancer or a host of other diseases?

I for one am not attached to any diet system and am open to all new information. When someone does come up with one that stops and reverses aging for reals and looks the part into their 80's I'm going to be the first one in line taking notes.

I'm here because so far the diet I have found that makes me feel the best and makes the most sense to me fits in here. I'm not here because I am a "believer". I am a questioner and with Phil's quotes, Zym asks a very good question.   

Asking the question does not invalidate the fact that AV has set lots of people in a much healthier direction and given people the strength to try a diet that makes a whole lot more sense than most and has gotten good results. It's really about the claims that eating a primal diet will keep you from natural aging that is a perfectly logical thing to ponder and question... and if it doesn't.... then is there a way perhaps that the diet can be tweaked so that it does?

I'd like to bring up another example of how a belief system can cloud out all logic. Hilda Clarke wrote many books with elaborate instructions on how to cure cancer and most other diseases. I read her books. She created this thing called a zapper which was supposed to kill all cancer cells and be the cure for cancer. She made millions of dollars. But........ in the end she died of cancer! And people still hold onto her belief systems and buy zappers as the cure for cancer. Holding onto belief in someone or a system can make one block out even the most obvious  questions. It's a trap I have fought hard all my life not to fall into.

If some dude says that the diet he eats is going to reverse and/or stop aging yet he is clearly aging...... it makes sense to question the statement.

[Wattlebird]

Also I'm surprised at you wattlebird. I know you to be a student of the old ways and presumably you've studied tracking, I'd think you would recognize that everything sends out very tangible concentric rings which, with the right attunement/awareness, you can perceive.  It's not a matter of judging the cover, it is a matter of perceiving that energy along with the superficial signs (wrinkles, balding, stringy, dull hair, blemishes, splotchy skin, dull skin, dull mental faculties, slow response time, etc) Energy, being subtle energy, along with body language.

Hi LetsCopOut,
Sure, agree.
Sadly, many folk do just judge the cover. As humans, we can sometimes become obsessed with appearance.
So be it, the point I was alluding to however, is that some folk have come back from the brink of death after years of poor health and comparable unfavourable outlook of life.  Although they are healed, the body may still exhibit 'signs' of echos from the past, but this is just one facet of the whole.
Everything is transient, including appearance and life.
PS. I am not saying one doesn't question an individuals claims, but rather it can be possible to reach conclusions which dont take into account a whole range of other factors.
Kind wishes, J

[goodsamaritan]

I think Aajonus' approach is more directed at healing people who are sick.

My point of view is, if you are sick... follow Aajonus and get well.  Thank Aajonus

Then change and follow longevity protocols such as the teachings of Li Ching Yuen

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Li_Ching-Yuen

[Dorothy]

But what if you are already what most would consider well - and looking for diets to help prevent that which AV says his diet can prevent and that which many other gurus say their diets will prevent?

I'm well but I am slowly aging - perhaps better than most without all the diseases I see popping up in people all around me - but I'm really interested in those claims he makes - not in how he healed himself. For all I know his diet is only good for sick people.