Whats your view on Raw Honey

[JaX]

I have access to some very good raw, unheated, unfiltered, local honey with lots of pollen in it.

I've heard two sides to the honey argument. There are those that argue honey, regardless whether its raw, is a pure sugar with little or no benefits. Then there is the other argument, held by for example AV, who says raw honey does the body good and doesn't really affect blood sugar levels that drastically.

Now I gotta say I really love raw honey. I could eat it by its own (although I don't think it's a good idea) so when I eat it I always mix it with nuts (lots of fat) and I often eat it after a meal with protein/fat. But even though I mix it with other things I end up eating a lot of honey when I buy it. I might end up eating 100 grams of honey which is 100 grams of sugar - which is a lot.

Can someone tell me exactly what AV said about honey? what are the benefits and how much it should be used? I really can't understand he discourages fruits but then says honey is perfectly fine. I mean honey has a lot higher sugar density than fruit and less vitamins. 100 grams of apple has 20 grams of sugar but 100 grams of honey is 100 grams of sugar.

 

[goodsamaritan]

Aajonus eats raw honey with butter.  I tried that and it makes sense.

I also add raw honey with extra virgin olive oil and use that as a dip for cucumbers.  Good snack.

Raw honey is also useful for scrapes and cuts.

[Michael]

I was following Av's primal diet for about 4 years which included LOTS of raw honey - usually eaten with plenty of raw butter.  Honey and dairy products were the last foods I've dropped on my way to my current diet which is largely fatty grass-fed meats & organs, fish/seafood, bone marrow and a few low-carb fruits/veggies.

Like you Seeker, I love raw honey but I finally had to admit that it was doing me no good whatsoever.  Ok, it may well be rich in minerals and enzymes (over 5000 apparently found so far!) but I found the overall effect to be negative.  I would regularly experience the 'sugar blues' from using honey (even when combined with fats) and had to accept, in the end, that this wasn't some kind of mystical AV 'detox' but just the results of spiking my blood sugars.

I have felt a hell of a lot better without the magic nectar!  But, that is just my own experience.  I believe I have problems with candida (and always have had) so this may be the reason honey is not good in my case.  My own feeling on it is that it is a wonderful food if used sparingly - as it would have been in nature when tribes were fortunate enough to come across wild hives.  I think raw bee pollen is also potentially a wonderfully nutritious food, again, if used sparingly.  It is so incredibly rich in amino acids, vitamins/minerals and enzymes that it would be a shame not to utilise it.

My suggestion to you would be this.  If you have no issues with candida, hypoglycemia, diabetes etc then small amounts (perhaps 1 tsp a day MAX!) of raw unfiltered pollen rich honey eaten with fats would be a useful addition to your diet.

Michael

[TylerDurden]

Most RPDers find they do better if they greatly limit the honey. I would suggest going in for raw honeycomb(heather honeycomb is among the best honeycombs re taste) as honeycomb doesn't cause such a huge immediate spike in blood-sugar levels as raw, liquid honey(at least, that's what I found). Over a whole year, I'd say, eat a tablespoonful of raw honeycomb a week, and that's enough, really.

[JaX]

One teaspoon of honey PER day or one tablespoon per week?... In those cases I think I'd better avoid honey altogether, because if I ate that I wouldn't satisfy the craving I have for honey and it would leave me craving more..

[ironpuppy92765]

An easy experiment (which I do with all carbohydrate foods) is to purchase a glucose monitor from a pharmacy, consume the carbohydrate (e.g., raw honey), and measure your blood sugar level every 10-15 minutes after consumption of the food.  You will most likely observe how the blood sugar from consuming raw honey spikes up within 10 minutes of consuming it and starts to settle down after 30 minutes.  Berries (eaten in equal amount of carbs) also cause a blood sugar spike but much smaller as compared to honey.  Berries mixed with appropriate amounts of fat causes little/no sugar spike.  A blood glucose monitor is very useful in seeing how your body reacts to carbohydrate foods.

Todd

[PaleoPhil]

OK I finally put the claims re: raw honey to the test. I used raw comb honey--the kind that is made right in the cannister so there is no heating whatsoever--you can't get any rawer than that. They don't even have to hand-pack it, as the bees make the comb right in the containers. I found it via Internet search after Tyler mentioned how truly raw comb honey is not clear like the stuff sold in most stores. I had never heard of it before, so it was a pretty neat experience--and very tasty (and expensive).

First, here is some reference data for comparison:

Blood Sugar Numbers
http://www.naturaldiabetics.com/blood-sugar-numbers/

This is information assembled from the ADA website, and a number of other sources....

Recommended targets for Diabetics:

Fasting: below 110
1 hour post-prandial: below 180
2 hours post-prandial: below 140 (this is a controversial number, many sources are still using the older goal of 180)

Recommended targets for Diabetics:

Normal Blood Sugar Readings:

Fasting: below 100
1 hour post-prandial: below 140
2 hours post-prandial: below 120

Here are my results:

5.21.10

5:51PM My random glucose after 4 hours of fasting = 87
5:55PM ate 2 tbsps Rabbit Mountain raw comb honey (experienced some burning feeling on the tongue; noticed cinnamon notes--excellent tasting honey)
6:55PM random glucose 1 hour after eating 2 tbsps Rabbit Mountain raw comb honey = 186 mg/dl
7:55PM random glucose 2 hours after eating 2 tbsps Rabbit Mountain raw comb honey = 146 mg/dl

So my blood sugar numbers after eating raw comb honey were apparently a bit high even for diabetics!    I'll bet that my numbers get spiked even more by heated honey. I hope to test that soon.

Has anyone else tested their blood sugar before and after eating raw honey?

[RawZi]

made right in the cannister so there is no heating whatsoever--you can't get any rawer than that. They don't even have to hand-pack it, as the bees make the comb right in the containers. I found it via Internet search after Tyler mentioned how truly raw comb honey is not clear like the stuff sold in most stores. I had never heard of it before, so it was a pretty neat experience--and very tasty ... some burning feeling on the tongue; noticed cinnamon notes--excellent tasting honey) ...

    Sounds nice.  Maybe I'll try some.  I'll mention it to my son too, since he eats a good bit of honey.  It didn't have actual cinnamon in it, did it?  Cinnamon burns my skin.  I like the taste though.  My friend who turned me onto RAF, she used to get raw honey with spices and cinnamon in it for her organic hot raw chocolate milk.  I think she just bought raw because she knew it was more likely to be really organic.

[Sully]

Mixing honey with nuts can caused digestion issues for me. (gas & bloating).
Mixing it with a pure fat with no proteins would be a better choice.

[PaleoPhil]

The Rabbit Mountain comb honey is just pure raw comb honey with nothing added. It just has a note of a slightly different flavor that reminds me of cinnamon, which probably comes from the fact that the pollen, royal jelly, etc. are not filtered out of the honey.

Eating that honey gave me a craving for more, so I ate some of the Champlain Valley Apiaries extractor-spun raw honey and got quite chilled. I seem to be very sensitive to even raw honey (and raw fruits as well as lactose and all other carbs that are sugary or come from plants). The only carbs I seem to handle well are those that come from animal body sources (such as liver, shellfish and eggs).

I'm getting these strong effects from raw honey even while taking Dr. Ron's iodine daily, so I guess that hasn't offset my carb intolerance as significantly as I hoped it might.

[Hans89]

hot raw chocolate milk

Isn't there a contradiction in that?

[ForTheHunt]

Mixing honey with nuts can caused digestion issues for me. (gas & bloating).
Mixing it with a pure fat with no proteins would be a better choice.

Fat and carbs don't go well together. That's the problem, not the protein

[RawZi]

Isn't there a contradiction in that?

    Yes.  I was vegan at the time, had been so many years.  She said to me she's stricter than vegan.  She said she would buy a little raw dairy for her baby.  As it turned out she stretched the words raw and strict a bit of a way.  Turned out whole fish was a little raw dairy, and frying eggs in her kitchen was a little raw dairy, melting cheese on vege burgers was a little raw dairy, and the whole family eating it was for the baby, even if this was all in a restaurant.

[RawZi]

which probably comes from the fact that the pollen, royal jelly, etc. are not filtered out of the honey.

Eating that honey gave me a craving for more,

    That's from Colorado?

[Hans89]

Then... I'm a fruitarian who eats an occassional egg yolk 

    Yes.  I was vegan at the time, had been so many years.  She said to me she's stricter than vegan.  She said she would buy a little raw dairy for her baby.  As it turned out she stretched the words raw and strict a bit of a way.  Turned out whole fish was a little raw dairy, and frying eggs in her kitchen was a little raw dairy, melting cheese on vege burgers was a little raw dairy, and the whole family eating it was for the baby, even if this was all in a restaurant.

[RawZi]

Then... I'm a fruitarian who eats an occassional egg yolk  

    I'm a raw vegan, I just add a little honey and suet.

    PS I'll be right back.  Taking a break for a snack.  I'm dying for some high meat here.  I have half a dozen different kinds.

[Michael]

First, here is some reference data for comparison:Here are my results:

5.21.10

5:51PM My random glucose after 4 hours of fasting = 87
5:55PM ate 2 tbsps Rabbit Mountain raw comb honey (experienced some burning feeling on the tongue; noticed cinnamon notes--excellent tasting honey)
6:55PM random glucose 1 hour after eating 2 tbsps Rabbit Mountain raw comb honey = 186 mg/dl
7:55PM random glucose 2 hours after eating 2 tbsps Rabbit Mountain raw comb honey = 146 mg/dl

So my blood sugar numbers after eating raw comb honey were apparently a bit high even for diabetics!    I'll bet that my numbers get spiked even more by heated honey. I hope to test that soon.

Has anyone else tested their blood sugar before and after eating raw honey?

I've only just seen this post whilst trying to catch up on some of the discussions I've missed!  Fantastic scientific investigative work Phil!  Well done!

Boy, those results must've been disappointing for you.  I'm excited to try this experiment myself now.  I have access to raw honey-comb and possess a digital blood sugar monitor (somewhere?!) from my hypoglycemia days.  I'll report back if I manage to conduct the tests!

[PaleoPhil]

...Boy, those results must've been disappointing for you.

Don't remind me. There was much swearing after I saw the numbers. I recently tried one cup of heirloom organic blueberries and even that sent my BG from 106 to 149 mg/dl an hour later. Damn! I was so hoping against hope that berries wouldn't have much impact on my BG --although I suspected they would. I didn't bother with the 2 hour reading, as it was getting late and I was hungry. [Note to those who think BG and insulin are meaningless--please no lectures about such tests being useless, I'm not in the mood and I also get other symptoms beyond BG spikes from raw honey and fruits--and please don't ask me to try to remember them all again, poor short-term memory is one of the symptoms. Thanks for your understanding.]

I'm excited to try this experiment myself now.  I have access to raw honey-comb and possess a digital blood sugar monitor (somewhere?!) from my hypoglycemia days.  I'll report back if I manage to conduct the tests!

Glad you're back to provide some rational discourse and real-world experimental data, albeit limited to one test subject. I guess I'll put off my summer break from this forum a bit longer.

[King Salmon]

Honey is basically glorified sugar by the "health food crowd".People tend to make all kinds of excuses,theories,and whatever story to justify to themselves that its good to eat.

Sorry to spoil the party.

Btw,nuts are also a bad choice.I used to be in love with pistachios and macadamias until I had some problems recently and did more research on the processing.Honestly,they're only good if you pick'em from the tree yourself.In processing,nuts are dried to death.Macadamias are dried(in machines,not sunlight) for over 2 weeks to lower their moisture content from above 30% to below 1.9% ! That sucks.

[Michael]

Honey is basically glorified sugar by the "health food crowd".People tend to make all kinds of excuses,theories,and whatever story to justify to themselves that its good to eat.

Begrudgingly, you're probably correct KS.  Lex is certainly of the same opinion too.  I think part of the justification with honey is related to the fact that it's a food which is naturally available in the wild (if one's fortunate enough to locate and successfully raid a wild nest!!).  Also, other factors such as it's undeniable richness in minerals and over 5000 enzymes (which, according to some, is of no value anyhow as they're instantly destroyed by digestion).  It's reputation is also probably enhanced by historical tales of it being used medicinally as far back as ancient Egypt and by long-living cultures such as the Georgians.  It may very well be the case that, actually, it does us no good whatsoever and these are merely ALL just justifications for another great-tasting sugar addiction!

Btw,nuts are also a bad choice.I used to be in love with pistachios and macadamias until I had some problems recently and did more research on the processing.Honestly,they're only good if you pick'em from the tree yourself.In processing,nuts are dried to death.Macadamias are dried(in machines,not sunlight) for over 2 weeks to lower their moisture content from above 30% to below 1.9% ! That sucks.

I was aware that buying shelled nuts is a bad idea for this reason and that it's a compete waste of time when all these people diligently soak/low temperature dry their commercially shelled nuts (as I, too, used to do!).  But, I wasn't aware that nuts bought in their shells had also been dried and had previously taken to buying 25kg bags of walnuts, macademias, hazelnuts/filberts in their shells from a local parrot food supplier.  The economical advantage over small bags of shelled health shop nuts was staggering.  I no longer consume any nuts myself.

[Michael]

Don't remind me. There was much swearing after I saw the numbers.

I can imagine!  Without wishing to pre-empt my results, I expect a similar outcome.  I recall 8 hour glucose tolerance tests I conducted on myself pre-RPD days confirming my suspected hypoglycemic curve.

I recently tried one cup of heirloom organic blueberries and even that sent my BG from 106 to 149 mg/dl an hour later. Damn! I was so hoping against hope that berries wouldn't have much impact on my BG   ... [Note to those who think BG and insulin are meaningless--please no lectures about such tests being useless, I'm not in the mood and I also get other symptoms beyond BG spikes from raw honey and fruits--and please don't ask me to try to remember them all again, poor short-term memory is one of the symptoms. Thanks for your understanding.]

That's incredible isn't it!  Hopefully, at least, this should provide sufficient evidence for other's who discredit your very real and personal experiences with carbs - of course, apart from some who also discount the validity of such testing altogether!!    I can relate to the short-term memory issues.  Mine is virtually non-existent!

Glad you're back to provide some rational discourse and real-world experimental data, albeit limited to one test subject. I guess I'll put off my summer break from this forum a bit longer.

Thanks Phil.  That should provide me with sufficient motivation to find that blood sugar monitor (involving rummaging around the attic!) and to get on with the testing! 

[rawlion]

I recently tried one cup of heirloom organic blueberries and even that sent my BG from 106 to 149 mg/dl an hour later.

Were you insulin resistant before LC?

[PaleoPhil]

   That's from Colorado?

Oops, missed this question. Yes, that honeycomb was from Colorado. Other Internet sources of made-right-in-the-can raw honeycomb have popped up since and they're all small, so maybe they sell until they run out or maybe they just drop off the search engines from time to time due to low traffic.

Were you insulin resistant before LC?

I had the same symptoms, so presumably so, but I've never been clinically diagnosed, because physicians tend to only do fasting BG tests, where I tend to score very low, like 72-74, which makes them happy, but some sources online say that the low FBG #'s of many people may actually be falling too low and that there should be less variation in the daily BG, but I don't know for sure. I just suspect I may be moderately insulin resistant based on KGH's guess and my BG readings.

Re: raw honey--I've noticed a lot of disagreement between people over what to eat it with. I tend to put more weight on nature than human opinions, though I take everything into account. Nature provides grubcomb with the honeycomb. The grubs provide both fat and protein, but they tend to be fatty, so the fat-with-honey opinion sounds plausible, but I don't know the metabolic science behind it all to understand why it would help. Plus, for me neither fat nor protein seemed to offset the negative effects of honey very much, but maybe the fat helps people like HGs who have healthier systems.

[Angeline]

My daughter is a Type 1 diabetic. She tests BG all day, every day. There are 2 kinds of carbs - fast-acting carbs and slow acting carbs. The only slow acting carb foods are non-starchy vegetables. You will get a spike with any other carb food, whether it be fruit (including berries), honey, whole grains, starchy vegetables, or any other kind of sugar or carb. Eating carbs with fat does not prevent the spike. The body is very efficient at turning carbs into glucose. Even non-starchy vegetables will raise the BG, but it won't spike. Actually, even protein is turned into glucose by the body and will raise BG levels, though much more slowly. That is why you don't really need to eat carbs at all. The body will make what it needs from the protein. It is the spike (and the resulting insulin response) that causes damage to the body.

[King Salmon]

Angeline: Nice post.These are the kinds of posts I like to read.Simple,informative,to the point,no fluff or dreamy theories/stories.

Phil:Just because nature put bees on the earth,it doesn't mean that honey is a good food for humans.Try living in a cave with no food, like a bear,for 4-5 months.Then yeah,you can eat honey as a reward.

Btw,I can tell those who eat honey are already salivating as they type their posts