Whats your view on Raw Honey

[PaleoPhil]

Interesting post, Angeline, and it matches my own experience. Non-starchy veggies are the only plant foods I seem to handle well. KGH acknowledges that protein can be converted into carbs. His recommendation of 5% of calories as carbs is because of what Alphagruis has posted about--that such conversion is less efficient than eating carbs directly. How important that efficiency is, I don't know. What I do know is that it's hard to get carbs up to 5% of calories without eating some fruit, honey or cooked/dried tubers and so far I don't do well on those foods.

Phil:Just because nature put bees on the earth,it doesn't mean that honey is a good food for humans.Try living in a cave with no food, like a bear,for 4-5 months.Then yeah,you can eat honey as a reward.

Btw,I can tell those who eat honey are already salivating as they type their posts

Perhaps you missed these parts of my post?...

  "though I take everything into account"

  "Plus, for me neither fat nor protein seemed to offset the negative effects of honey very much...."

I was only talking about the claims of some here, generally made without supporting evidence, that protein should be consumed with honey and that protein will ameliorate honey's negative effects much more effectively than will fat. Neither nature nor my own experience seem to support this idea that protein is much better to eat with honey than fat. As I mentioned, even fat doesn't seem to ameliorate honey's negative effects much for me, but fat is more linked in nature with honey than protein is--via the grubcomb in honey hives--so the argument is at least theoretically plausible (but still rather unconvincing for me) that fat would offset honey's negative effects, whereas I haven't seen anything supporting the protein argument. All I meant was that I would put more stock in nature on this question of eating protein vs. fat with honey than I would on other people's unsupported opinions here. Do you disagree with me on that?

I don't recall ever advocating eating honey and I've only reported negative experiences so far when I've tried it. I find my experience to contradict Aajonus' claims re: honey. I agree with your statement that just because something is on the earth doesn't mean we should eat it and I don't often eat honey, so I suspect that you misunderstood my post.

For those who advocate eating honey as some kind of a miracle health food, I wonder why it is that honey proponents rarely advocate eating bee grubs or other fatty insects? Could it be because people love the taste of honey and its culturally more acceptable and available than insects, and so folks make up health excuses to eat honey, rather than because honey really is all that healthful? Granted, there are some studies that have found health benefits to honey, but I wonder whether the benefits were largely due to the reduced intake of what the honey replaced in the diet--such as table sugar.

It's quite plausible that honey would be superior to table sugar, but whether it makes sense to add it to a largely carnivorous diet is another question. If it's the only carb source that someone can digest well and someone finds they do better when they include some carbs, or they wish to avoid killing off all their carb-digesting bacteria so that they can handle carbs better in social and convenience situations, then I could see those as reasons to eat it, but beyond that the case for raw honey still seems weak to me at this point as anything other than an occasional treat.

[King Salmon]

Phil: "taking everything into account" is pretty vague/ambiguous.What's "everything"?It sounds like you're just trying to cover all the bases in case something slips by you.No offence.
If honey is not good,then why eat it as a "treat"?Might as well eat ice cream once in a while too Or,if you want to talk about things strictly in nature,why not smoke a joint or eat a magic mushroom once in a while?


Let go of the honey buddy...let it go...let it go...

[PaleoPhil]

Phil: "taking everything into account" is pretty vague/ambiguous.What's "everything"?It sounds like you're just trying to cover all the bases in case something slips by you.No offence.

Sure, it's a bit of an exaggeration, but is there something wrong with covering all potentially reasonable bases? In other words, I'm not eliminating anything of potential value a priori and encouraging people to not assume that I am. I favor Socrates' approach of pleading ignorance about everything except my own ignorance.

Too often, vocal critics of RPD try to paint us into a corner as only considering certain limited evidence, such as merely trying to emulate Stone Agers, without taking biology, metabolism, chemistry, knowledge about other animal species, what our own bodies are telling us, etc., into account. In my case, this is a false assumption. I'm not a priori eliminating consideration of any of those sources of information. On the contrary, I consider them all and I actually put my own personal experience at the top, not emulation.

If honey is not good,then why eat it as a "treat"? Might as well eat ice cream once in a while too

Firstly, I've found that I'm going to be damned no matter what I do. So I do what works for me and don't care much what others think--no offense intended.
 
Secondly, eating raw honey on occasion is still appealing to me, whereas ice cream is not any longer. Maybe that's in part due to the fact that honey gets mentioned so frequently on this forum. However, another interesting factor is that I was never a big fan of heated honey--it used to scratch my throat and not taste all that great--whereas raw honey tastes fantastic to me and doesn't scratch my throat nearly as much, especially the more raw among the raw honeys. Plus, I did actually try a couple ice cream sandwiches two or three years ago and experienced a bout of violent vomiting plus diarrhea at the same time that continued until everything emptied out. If that doesn't convince someone to avoid ice cream, or at least ice cream sandwiches, I can't imagine what would.

Or,if you want to talk about things strictly in nature,why not smoke a joint or eat a magic mushroom once in a while?

I don't know if that's meant at all to be taken seriously, but just in case, I don't "want to talk about things strictly in nature", that's partly the point of why I go to the extent of saying I consider "everything"--to try to emphasize that I don't restrict my thinking so severely, which seems to be a common assumption made about RPDers, carnivores, low carbers, vegans and pretty much anyone who doesn't eat a SAD.

Let go of the honey buddy...let it go...let it go...

Don't worry, I have mostly let it go. I don't think I've had any since my blood glucose testing of it, whenever that was.

[Michael]

Useful posts King Salmon and Angeline.  Sugar addiction is a wily old fox which can sneak up on even the most well intentioned!  I mentioned some of the justifications earlier.

Valid experience Angeline.  Thanks for sharing.

I think, perhaps, a little harsh to judge PaleoPhil as another addict however.  My own understanding is that he's concerned with discovering the most viable means of raising carb intake to 5% of calories in line with the current thinking.  Based on the science, it appears that the protein-to-glucose conversion efficiency rate is inadequate (perhaps even dangerous?) and the wise thoughts of KGH, alphagruis' and others on the subject, I think, need serious consideration.

My perspective is that the jury is still out on our dietary requirement for carbohydrate.  I think this is a subject we all need to pull together on here as it's one of paramount importance.  Perhaps we need to start a specific thread dedicated to this subject where personal bias' and egos can be left at the door and serious enquiring minds backed with relevant and up-to-date scientific studies can openly, rationally and objectively discuss the matter with the hope of discovering the truth based on current knowledge?

[King Salmon]

Michael: I agree except for one thing.If adding 5% carbs is good,then why not add foods that are 5-6% carbs or less which also have a low insulin-spike?For myself,I use cucumbers for example.
Does honey fit into that profile?
Does this sound reasonable at all?I'm not claiming to be an expert.It just makes sense to me,that's all.

[Michael]

Hi King Salmon,

I think the 5% carbs requirement refers to obtaining 5% of one's overall calories from carbs.  If we're obtaining these carbs from foods containing only 5-6% carbs, then surely we're going to need to eat lorry-loads of them to attain the 5% overall figure?  I believe this is the problem PaleoPhil is encountering and why he was interested in the possibility of foods such as raw honey.  It doesn't seem viable to attain that figure from non-starchy vegetables.  Alphagruis, I think, mentioned obtaining 50-100g carbs as a minimum.  How many cucumbers would need to be eaten to obtain this volume?

You may have noticed that I raised the possibility to PaleoPhil in another thread, that blood could be considered a possibility for supplying the alleged required level of carbs.  As he conjectured, there may very well exist in light of this the possibility that sufficient carbs could in fact be obtained from the animal kingdom and, indeed, it is our lack of consuming the whole animal which has raised this issue.

Likewise, I'm certainly no expert.  A dedicated thread on this subject with input from alphagruis, Lex, PaleoPhil etc, I think, would prove highly useful.

[Angeline]

For PaleoPhil and anyone else who is aiming for very specific ratios of protein/fat/carb, there is a website - www.fitday.com (it's free) -which does the calculations for you as you enter in your daily diet plan (or whatever you ate whether you planned to our not). Liver has a little over 1 carb per ounce.

[PaleoPhil]

Yes, I used Fitday to do my calculations and included liver, eggs and nonstarchy veg in it. Like Michael suggested, I would have to eat a lot of those foods and greatly cut back on my intake of raw meat and fat to get the carb % up to 5%, and I'm not interested in doing that. I think this may be one reason why KGH includes tubers, rice, half and half and some fruit in his diet--it's hard to eat like a carnivore AND get 5% or more of calories from carbs if you don't include cooked tubers, grains, fruit or honey, none of which agree well with my system. It was an interesting math experiment that is so far showing me that it's probably not very realistic for me to consider eating 5% or more of calories as carbs.

There's still one other possibility I recently learned about, but haven't tried and am skeptical about. Some traditional Africans and American raw food vegans/vegetarians apparently eat tubers that have been soaked and dried instead of cooked. My guess is I wouldn't handle those much better than I do cooked tubers and squashes, but I haven't tried any.

[King Salmon]

Michael,yeah,I thought about that after I made my post.But,I had to leave and just left it as it was.

For me,I'll just stick to my RVLC.It's working great so far.Meat,seafood and plant foods 5-6% carbs or less is an easy WOE to keep track of, and I feel good.

The math in the "formula/WOE" you're talking about, sounds like a pain in the ass.Not to mention all the enzymatically incompatible foods you would most likely have to eat.

I get enough natural water/sodium/minerals/fats/protein..etc the body could ask for, without using a calculator.That's good enough for me.

Good luck with your experimentations fellow RPDers

[Michael]

I must, King Salmon, that I'm not overly excited at the prospect of consciously raising carb levels either.  I was quite happy with my meat, fat, eggs, fish and a few low-carb vegetables and herbs.  Personally, I'm not convinced on the 5% carbs requirement given that it cannot, feasibly, be achieved without the items pointed out by PaleoPhil.  I don't see how including tubers, fruit (modern high-sugar, hybridized varieties), honey etc could be necessary as they wouldn't have been eaten originally.

But, I am interested in the discussion following the seemingly informed opinions of alphagruis, KGH et al.

If it is deemed that we do in fact require 5% calories from carbs then, at this point in time, I think the idea that this should be obtained from animal products such as blood along with some of the low-carb vegetables/fruits would be more convincing.


PaleoPhil, re: my duplicate blood sugar tests - I managed to take a trip to obtain some local raw honeycomb yesterday and have been rummaging around the attic for my blood sugar monitor today.  Unfortunately, I've been unable to locate it and I now suspect I disposed of it thinking I would have no further use for it!    Given this discussion, perhaps it's becoming an increasingly pointless exercise anyway?  Would you still be interested in my test results?

[Haai]

  Would you still be interested in my test results?

I'd be interested!

[Michael]

I'd be interested!

OK.  Thanks Haai.  Anybody else?

[PaleoPhil]

...But, I am interested in the discussion following the seemingly informed opinions of alphagruis, KGH et al.

Yeah, they're smarter than me, so I take their opinions seriously.

If it is deemed that we do in fact require 5% calories from carbs ...

And KGH appears to think that 8-10% carbs (about 50g) is more optimal than 5%, with 5% as the minimum.

then, at this point in time, I think the idea that this should be obtained from animal products such as blood along with some of the low-carb vegetables/fruits would be more convincing.

I checked into the carbs-from-blood idea, and only found one source. If this source is right, then blood doesn't appear to be a significant factor where carbs are concerned:

Lamb blood
per 100 grams

Total fat 0.4g (2.2%)
Total carb 0.1g (0.6%)
Protein 17.4g (97.2%)
Total macronutrients 17.9g

(From: http://www.fitbit.com/foods/Lamb+Blood/7287)

I'm interested in your BG results, but I wouldn't want you to get a BG meter just on our account. However, if anyone can eat raw honeycomb without spiking their BG, I would think that would be interesting to KGH and others who see honey as basically just another sugar. My BG spikes almost as much on raw honey as heated, though it is interesting that there's a small difference.

There are frequent offers in the USA giving away free blood glucose meters to Americans for anyone who fills out a survey. That's how I got mine. You don't have to be diabetic. If you can't be bothered with that, it sounds like the prices of the cheaper meters in the drugstores have come down quite a ways in the last few years.

[Michael]

And KGH appears to think that 8-10% carbs (about 50g) is more optimal than 5%, with 5% as the minimum.

Thanks for informing me of that Phil.  As you know, I've missed out on all this furore surrounding carbs which seems to have arisen during my absence from the forum.  I'm not even sure where the 5% figure came from particularly as alphagruis was talking about 50-100g as a minimum.  I really need to go away and do some research on this!

I checked into the carbs-from-blood idea, and only found one source. If this source is right, then blood doesn't appear to be a significant factor where carbs are concerned

Well done Phil.  I'm tempted to say 'disappointing news' but, remaining impartial, this is merely another step closer to the truth.  If I get a chance I'll do some searching myself just to further validate the results of your research.

I'm interested in your BG results... if anyone can eat raw honeycomb without spiking their BG, I would think that would be interesting to KGH and others who see honey as basically just another sugar. My BG spikes almost as much on raw honey as heated, though it is interesting that there's a small difference.

I would be incredibly shocked myself if it didn't spike my BG.  I guess it's an experiment still worth conducting.  Or, perhaps this is further evidence of my salivating for the raw honeycomb now sitting in my cupboard King Salmon?!?   

There are frequent offers in the USA giving away free blood glucose meters to Americans for anyone who fills out a survey. That's how I got mine. You don't have to be diabetic. If you can't be bothered with that, it sounds like the prices of the cheaper meters in the drugstores have come down quite a ways in the last few years.

Thanks for the thought.  I'll look into this if they turn out to be rather expensive.

[klowcarb]

I have no problem with getting carbs from animal carbs. Sometimes for fun I have a huge omelet where my carbs for the day are like 7 or 8 or 1% of my total. Carbs from eggs and organs in my opinion are different than carbs from inferior plant sources.

[PaleoPhil]

Thanks for informing me of that Phil.  As you know, I've missed out on all this furore surrounding carbs which seems to have arisen during my absence from the forum.  I'm not even sure where the 5% figure came from particularly as alphagruis was talking about 50-100g as a minimum.  

I mentioned it, I believe, based on KGH's minimum. I figured it would be more doable for me to try than his optimal ~10% figure. Using Fitday, it's surprising how difficult it is to reach even 5% without the Paleonu compromise foods like dairy, tubers, rice, berries or dark chocolate.

[miles]

Yeah, they're smarter than me, so I take their opinions seriously.
And KGH appears to think that 8-10% carbs (about 50g) is more optimal than 5%, with 5% as the minimum.
I checked into the carbs-from-blood idea, and only found one source. If this source is right, then blood doesn't appear to be a significant factor where carbs are concerned:

Lamb blood
per 100 grams

Total fat 0.4g (2.2%)
Total carb 0.1g (0.6%)
Protein 17.4g (97.2%)
Total macronutrients 17.9g

(From: http://www.fitbit.com/foods/Lamb+Blood/7287)

Is that fresh blood? I don't know where this was from, but I remember someone saying that from the moment an animal is killed, the carbs begin to disappear rapidly..?

[King Salmon]

Animal blood...wow that reminds me.When I was a kid my father told me about a doctor who recommended to a patient to go to the "abattoir"(slaughterhouse for those who don't speak French ) every day for a certain time period(don't remember how many weeks or months-too long ago)and drink a full fresh glass of blood as soon the animal was killed.The patient received great benefits from that.

[PaleoPhil]

I can't imagine it would be fresh blood, but that's all I could find. Besides, from a practical standpoint, unfresh blood all one is likely to get.

[Michael]

So, perhaps blood is a part of the answer if one was trying to determine a viable source of paleo carbs.  Unfortunately, as PaleoPhil mentions, it's highly unlikely that fresh blood is going to be available within the context of modern lifestyles.  Of course, it's likely that the benefits of the patient described by King Salmon were not even related to the carbohydrate content of the blood.

miles, where is it that the carbs in fresh blood disappear to exactly?!  Is that scientifically possible?  I'm well aware that vitamins are 'lost' from the moment fruit/veg is picked but carbohydrate surely isn't so susceptible to the fickle winds of oxygen etc?  As far as I'm aware the carbs in rice, wheat, honey etc are not 'lost' when sitting in the cupboard?  The sugar in a banana may turn to starch but it's still carbohydrate.

Any further evidence of this phenomenon would be most enlightening.

[sanborn]

My take on raw honey is that it really varies from one person to another and from one time to another.  For nearly a year we went through 1/2 gallon in a month approximately - for 2 of us.  This is what the local honey producers call "Aajonus grade"  honey - completely unheated, not smoked etc. 
For the last 4 months or so, my wife has greatly diminished the amount of raw honey she uses in smoothies and milkshakes.  Her circumstance is that she is recovering from advanced spinal cancer by natural means using the Primal Diet books with some special emphasis such as making her own raw cottage cheese then having that with raw unheated flax oil (following the lead of Johanna Budwig, for those of you who have read up on cancer literature) and a small amount of kiwi fruit or organic pineapple or organic berries.  She seems more calm with less raw honey.  My observation from this is simply that if you pay attention to what your body is telling you, you can guide yourself within the guidelines of the Primal Diet. 
Aajonus does clarify in his recipe book the vast difference between cooked honey - to be avoided - and raw honey.
Note: she also increased the size of her meat meals which could be contributing to the calmness.

[PaleoPhil]

Fructose and perhaps fructose-heavy foods like honey and fruit may not be the best thing in the world for someone fighting cancer:

Cancer cells slurp up fructose, U.S. study finds
WASHINGTON | Mon Aug 2, 2010 5:22pm EDT
http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE6714ZH20100802

And here's the abstract: http://cancerres.aacrjournals.org/content/early/2010/07/16/0008-5472.CAN-09-4615.abstract

Have you checked out the Warburg hypothesis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warburg_hypothesis)?

I'm not surprised that your wife seems more calm since she cut down on honey. I got calmer myself when I cut down on plant carbs.

[Sully]

Wild Honey Gathering

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xFZuTwiekaQ

[miles]

I don't like how the narrator talks about them towards the end of that video.

About the lamb's blood: I have some NZ Lamb's Liver and the nutrition table says it has trace carbohydrates, it tastes really nice, it tastes sweet. I have some Ox Liver, it says it has 8g carbs/100g and I didn't like the taste...

[Michael]

Superb video Sully!  Thanks for posting it.  I enjoyed the other parts on You Tube too.  It's a shame the subtitles are partially hidden by the title throughout.

What did you think about the health of this tribe in as far as we can judge by their appearance at least?  They don't appear to be a picture of health to me but then they're doing the best they can under the difficult circumstances they face.  Their diet, it seems, is not ideal but I wonder what the impact of all this, abeit raw, honey is on their overall physical & mental health?