acid/alkaline?

[joej627]

Hey guys,

i'm sure this has been brought up before but a lot of people recommend an alkaline based diet.  Supposedly things like eggs, fats, meats are "acid-forming."  I have never seen anything on this but my intuition says that eating raw eggs and fats, raw or rare meats would not be acid forming in the system.  I feel like the "acid-forming" mainly comes from not being able to break down the excess that heavily cooked proteins and fats in the body.  Thoughts?

-Joe

[TylerDurden]

The whole acid/alkali theory is completely bogus. The body has to ensure that blood PH levels are within a very tiny range, something like +/- O.1 PH - if it goes above or below by more than 0.1 PH or so, you die, so, clearly, the body can easily regulate itself regardless of what acid or alkali foods it ingests:-

http://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/DSH/coral2.html

Craig Bates pointed out, ages ago, that when he was a raw vegan his body was extremely acidic, according to tests, and that his body was far better on an RZC rawpalaeodiet.

The problem with cooked foods isn't so much that they are acidic, though, admittedly, raw meats are far less acidic than cooked meats(processed, cooked meats are even more acidic than standard cooked meats as acidic preservative/chemicals are added to kill of bacteria). The problem with cooked foods is that they cause inflammation via heat-created toxins in them plus they cause inflammation by overstressing the body re extra resources needed to digest them.

[svrn]

I wouldnt call quackwatch a very good source for information.  Usually its just a platform for pharmaceutical companies to dismiss any type of alternative medicine including raw foods.

ph stuff is likely crap thuogh.

[TylerDurden]

While quackwatch presents only the mainstream view, he does at least provide endless scientific references unlike most people in the alternative health field. Basically, we need to get ideas from both camps and, that way, get rid of the more ludicrous notions like the acid/alkali theory.So quackwatch may not always be right, and maybe even dishonest sometimes, but it is still useful.

[Dorothy]

I'd like to add joe that when Tyler says that the ph has to be in a very tight range he is talking about BLOOD ph - not saliva or urine. The urine is how the body keeps the ph in such tight blood ph range. The body primarily rids itself of excess acid through the urine. The theory is that if you have so much acid coming out your urine you are putting a stress on your system. This is debatable of course. The idea is to eat a diet that pretty much puts you in the middle range so that there is not that extra stress on the body. Being too alkaline is supposed to be just as dangerous. Cancer grows supposedly only in bodies that are running on the acid side - but then again - eating all raw is a different animal entirely. Who's to say that if you are getting all of what you need nutritionally and taking away lots of other stresses on your body if you still don't end up with a net gain when eating raw paleo even if your urine goes to the acid side? It might just mean that your body is working like it is supposed to. 

The problem is that we don't have any clear studies on this issue and probably never will. The best you can do is test it and see how you feel and get anecdotal testimonies from people here on how much better they feel and that they have improved their health.

I'm not so sure that acid/alkaline is totally useless with regular diets, I'm just not sure if it is as pertinent when eating a balanced raw diet. But we really will never know because there's no money to be made finding out. 

[blackrhino]

I heard that diseases cant live in an alkaline enviorment.Is that true?

[Dorothy]

I heard that diseases cant live in an alkaline enviorment.Is that true?

No that's not true Rhino. You just get different kinds of diseases when you are too alkaline - the thing is that being too alkaline is actually pretty rare. I've been too alkaline though for times - mostly through doing loads of meditation on a very alkaline diet - but I didn't stay that extreme long enough for it to make a bad physical impact.

The reason why people say that diseases are because of acidity is because almost everyone eats so badly in one direction in America that extreme acidity is the norm therefore the common degenerative diseases are associated with high acidity.

I wouldn't give this acid/alkaline thing much thought unless you have cancer - and then you use it just to test yourself before and after eating to see if you are getting a handle on the cancer or not - that's all. My approach is to just eat raw stuff that feels good and see what happens because that is what makes the most sense to me. Maybe it's because I'm just not educated or smart enough - but the idea of eating foods the way were evolved to eat them makes a great deal of basic old common sense to me and it makes me feel really good. It's a lot easier than the science behind ph levels.

[blackrhino]

Well put!

[aLptHW4k4y]

I heard that diseases cant live in an alkaline enviorment.Is that true?

What do you mean by diseases, are they some living organisms?
In general the more acidic the less bacteria. That's mainly how you survive raw diet, stomach acid kills pretty much everything, unless you compromise digestion (antacids, too much food, etc.)

[Dorothy]

What do you mean by diseases, are they some living organisms?
In general the more acidic the less bacteria. That's mainly how you survive raw diet, stomach acid kills pretty much everything, unless you compromise digestion (antacids, too much food, etc.)

aLp - more acidic what? Do you mean the stomach? I ferment a lot of the more acidic often means only the good bacteria survive - like kombucha for example.

I guess I just don't quite understand what you are saying.

I think what Rhino meant to say was something more like "diseases can't develop and continue in an overall alkaline bodily environment". Did I get that right Rhino? ... and I don't think he was referring to the stomach acid - but a general overall acidity such that one would test with ph strips with saliva or urine.

[blackrhino]

Indeed you did dor!Thanks

[Alive]

One of the reasons our blood pH stays so steady is that our bodies use the calcium from our bones as a buffer. So if you have a highly acid forming diet you can get weak bones from calcium loss. A scientific study found that eating hard diary products (eg cheese) was acid forming and could result in reduced bone density due to this buffering effect, while soft diary products and whey were alkaline forming. This researcher mentioned the consumption of baking soda in water to increase alkalinity and therefore bone density. Cooked meat is very acid forming - of course they did not mention the properties of RAFs. The acid / alkaline balance is especially important for those of us who have had microbe imbalances, for example too many yeast types which like to turn sugars into acids.  Personally I have found a huge improvement in physical performance on an largely alkaline forming diet, which also neutralizes the lactic acid formed during exercise to increase stamina. Baking soda is used by some athletes to buffer this lactic acid production & improve their performance.

[goodsamaritan]

One of the reasons our blood pH stays so steady is that our bodies use the calcium from our bones as a buffer. So if you have a highly acid forming diet you can get weak bones from calcium loss. A scientific study found that eating hard diary products (eg cheese) was acid forming and could result in reduced bone density due to this buffering effect, while soft diary products and whey were alkaline forming. This researcher mentioned the consumption of baking soda in water to increase alkalinity and therefore bone density. Cooked meat is very acid forming - of course they did not mention the properties of RAFs. The acid / alkaline balance is especially important for those of us who have had microbe imbalances, for example too many yeast types which like to turn sugars into acids.  Personally I have found a huge improvement in physical performance on an largely alkaline forming diet, which also neutralizes the lactic acid formed during exercise to increase stamina. Baking soda is used by some athletes to buffer this lactic acid production & improve their performance.

Please share your alkaline forming diet.

[joej627]

I think alkaline forming diet would include mostly fresh raw vegetables and fruits, lots of clean water, air, not much cooked food, and definitely not much cooked meats or starches

[aLptHW4k4y]

One of the reasons our blood pH stays so steady is that our bodies use the calcium from our bones as a buffer. So if you have a highly acid forming diet you can get weak bones from calcium loss.
...

Ok you should do some reading: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acid-base_physiology
I don't see any calcium mentioned anywhere.

Further reading: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acidosis
Food is not mentioned anywhere as a cause of acidosis.

[Dorothy]

Hi Miker,

I heard that theory of the calcium being stripped from bones in an acidic environment but some other theories too that sound just as plausible. My mother had severe osteoporosis and what her holistic doctors said was the cause had nothing to do with how much calcium she ate (they said that almost any diet will have enough calcium) but simply that she didn't have enough or the right balance of other minerals so that the calcium could be absorbed properly. Mom took way too much calcium and her bones were still getting worse until the doctors got her on enough minerals and reduced her calcium intake. She was so conditioned that she needed more and more calcium that it was a real fight to get her to stop taking so much calcium - the doctors were afraid it was going to affect her arteries adversely taking so much calcium. That theory didn't hold up with our experience, but I can't tell you if there is absolutely no truth in it - but I kinda trust our experience and the the doctors we chose more.

[Dorothy]

Oh - and women - be careful with the baking soda thing. The vagina has to be acidic so taking the baking soda can cause yeast infections there.

[blackrhino]

Dor,i nominate you a moderator of this site!

[Dorothy]

Dor,i nominate you a moderator of this site!

Oh no! Please don't do that!!! Those guys work hard keeping up and having to stay tuned here all the time so I get to come and go here and play whenever I want to.

[blackrhino]

I hear that! i unnominate 

[aLptHW4k4y]

Oh - and women - be careful with the baking soda thing. The vagina has to be acidic so taking the baking soda can cause yeast infections there.

From what I've read the whole 'outside' part of the body (skin, digestive tract, etc.) should be at least slightly acidic, except the mouth as you don't want to dissolve the teeth. So baking soda might be only good to swish in the mouth.

[Dorothy]

But it was a very sweet sentiment. Thank you.

[Adora]

I think alkaline forming diet would include mostly fresh raw vegetables and fruits, lots of clean water, air, not much cooked food, and definitely not much cooked meats or starches

YES! and I don't think the acid stuff is bogus, over time it does pull from bones and teeth. Especially with out fresh air aerobic exercise.

[Alive]

Can we upload files to this site?

An alkaline forming diet is high in wet vegetation - leaves, fruits, berries, buds, shoots, flowers, sprouts, stems, tubers... I have called this wet vegetation because the term 'vegetables' is actually incorrect, since common usage includes high-carb tubers, high-mineral leaves, and some fruits all in the same category. Western thinking belittles wet plant matter in favor of high-protein and high-carbohydrate foods, as shown by the 'food pyramid' which is clearly biased since it has 9 words specifying high protein foods - milk yogurt cheese meat poultry fish eggs beans nuts, 4 words for dried high carbohydrate seed matter - bread cereal rice pasta, but only 1 word for high mineral wet plant matter - vegetables, and 1 for high fructose wet plant matter - fruit. Apes and I'm sure our paleo ancestors both love browsing on these  leaves, fruits, berries, buds, shoots, flowers, sprouts, stems, tubers.
As a temporary measure baking soda is intended to be swallowed with water on an empty stomach, and swishing around mouth  to help teeth makes sense.

'Hard Cheese' articles on the importance of Alkaline/Acid balance from New Scientist magazine 2001:

http://www.urbanrooms.co.nz/Hard%20Cheese%20001.jpg
http://www.urbanrooms.co.nz/Hard%20Cheese%20002.jpg
http://www.urbanrooms.co.nz/Hard%20Cheese%20003.jpg
http://www.urbanrooms.co.nz/Hard%20Cheese%20004.jpg

[Alive]

Very high and very low protein diets are harmful to muscle and bone health - science studies demonstrate that it is very important to eat vegetable matter such as fruit, leaves, shoots etc to maintain a slightly alkaline chemistry:

"The four cases of dietary acidosis

Sebastian, regarded at the top researcher in the field of diet-related acidosis, admits that some of the science, at first glance, appears counter-intuitive. For example, acidic and alkaline foods don't usually translate into acid- and alkaline-yielding foods. The distinction is subtle but significant. An acid-yielding food is one that creates a lower, or more acidic, pH. Citrus fruits and tomatoes are acidic, but they have a net alkaline yield once their constituents get to the kidneys.

So if acid foods don't necessarily make for an acid pH, what then happens? Sebastian points to four big issues.

• First, fruits and vegetables are rich in potassium salts, a natural buffer. Eating few of these foods deprives us of potassium, a mineral that protects against hypertension and stroke. According to Cordain's research, humans evolved eating a 10:1 ratio of potassium to sodium, and he regards this ratio as our biological baseline. Today, because of heavily salted processed and fast foods, combined with a low intake of fruits and vegetables, the ratio is now 3:1 in favor of sodium. That reversal, he says, wreaks havoc with pH and our dependency on potassium.

• Second, there has also been a similar reversal in the consumption of naturally occurring bicarbonate (such as potassium bicarbonate) in foods and added chloride (mostly in the form of sodium chloride, or table salt). Bicarbonate is alkaline, where as chloride is acid-yielding. Chloride also constricts blood vessels, and narrows blood vessels reduce circulation, Sebastian says. Because the whole body depends on healthy circulation, vasoconstriction contributes to heart disease, stroke, dementia, and probably every other degenerative disease.

• Third, eating large amounts of animal protein (including meat, fowl, and seafood) releases sulfuric acid though the metabolism of sulfur-containing amino acids, also contributing to greater acidity. This acidic shift can be offset with greater consumption of fruits and vegetables (rich in potassium bicarbonate), but again, most Americans eat these foods sparingly.

• Fourth, grains, such as wheat, rye, and corn, have a net acid-yielding effect, regardless of whether they are in the form of white bread, breakfast cereal, pasta or whole grains. "Grains are the most frequently consumed plant food in the United States," says Sebastian, and account for 65 percent of the plant foods eaten by Americans. "In addition to their acid yield, grains displace more nutritious fruits and vegetables," he adds.

Very Alkaline-Yielding Foods
Spinach
Raisins
Dates

Alkaline-Yielding Foods
Apricots
Kiwifruit
Cherries
Bananas
Strawberries
Peaches
Oranges
Lemon juice
Pears
Pineapple
Peaches
Apples
Watermelon
Celery
Carrots
Zucchini
Cauliflower
Broccoli
Green peppers
Cucumber
Tomatoes
Eggplant
Lettuce
Green beans
Onions
Mushrooms
Mineral water

Acid-Yielding Foods
Spaghetti
Corn flakes
While rice
Rye bread
White bread
Whole milk
Lentils
Beef
Pork

Very Acid-Yielding Foods
Parmesan cheese
Processed (soft) cheeses
Hard cheeses
Gouda cheese
Cottage cheese
Brown rice
Rolled oats
Whole wheat bread
Peanuts
Walnuts
Salami
Luncheon meat, canned
Liver sausage
Chicken
Cod
Herring
Trout
Eggs"

http://www.freeworldfilmworks.com/ahw-ph2.htm

http://www.eateco.org/Medical/ProtOsteoporosis.htm

http://journals.cambridge.org/download.php?file=%2FPNS%2FPNS61_02%2FS0029665102000630a.pdf&code=e04f6f6ebd839810e051a6bcc1b17fc3

http://experiencelife.com/article/the-ph-factor/

http://www.isaoz.com/Docs/E-pH-NutritionGuideToAcidAlkalineBalance.pdf

http://www.online-ganoderma.com/page/14235/default.asp