Controversial anti-Aajonus claim

[CitrusHigh]

lol M, Aajonus has brought this raw diet to so many people that the above statements are laughable. If he cured even one person of any kind of chronic malaise or digestive issues, that would be enough, but his work has helped countless people. Come back to reality for a second.

With that said, I didn't care for the way he carried himself on that show, he really could have done a lot better....but with THAT said, getting up in front of so many people and on tv is intimidating and I'm sure he did the best he could under the circumstances.

[mhikl]

Thoth, Aajonus walked into an ambush, however it was to go. We have no idea what went on before the show but I wouldn't be surprised if some shenanigans and motive or agenda didn't happen to set him off his guard. We both would agree, I suspect, that those Treaters of Symptoms would have no regard for whatever he had to say.  Notice the condescending comments from the tall blond MD to him at the end.

I would hope in future that Aajonus picks his forums more carefully or at least goes with support. I suspect he is an man of emotion (I don't mean that as a disparagement) and he became nervous.

But Aajonus is a worthy warrior and towers over snivelling Ornish - no offence meant to snivellers.

[Dorothy]

I disagree with you Michael regarding that show. He made it very clear that he cured himself with the diet and demonstrated in front of millions that it does him no harm. Even the doctor said that it didn't hurt AV, but no one else do it. Anyone with half a brain would watch that and think - wait a minute! Obviously what those doctors are saying is not the truth for him. Hey, I have cancer and he cured himself. Why can't I? I have this or that, maybe it can help me like it did him? It didn't kill him - it cured him. If someone has a desire to eat that way but social conditioning stops them - AV gave them the ok and SHOWED  how to do it. Maybe he didn't pick the chicken or bring the food. I doubt it actually. But he did grab that egg and eat it. I thought that was GREAT!

For anyone to come off as well as AV in an interview like that with so much hostility directed at him I think is impressive. I would have collapsed into a tiny ball of fear. AV kept on talking in the personal "I" which was also impressive - not making general statements implying that everyone should eat that way. He told his own story - which made it hard for the doctors to argue with.

I would challenge anyone to do better. He got a gigantic audience and got the message out, but bigger than that he stepped up to the dragon and stood toe to toe. Doctors are the category of people that did him tremendous harm and yet he got onto a show with a panel of doctors with an audience that love them. That took guts.

[mhikl]

Dorothy, I can see the converted being impressed, but I think to the unconvinced and especially those who may not even be aware that raw is possible and doesn't kill, I think a gentler approach could have been made.

But I have come round to the man after seeing a number of YouTube videos by him. He is actually very gentle which makes me even more suspicious that he did not feel comfortable with the pompous establishment and their condescension. His may be a traumatised spirit.  Such a horrific early life, I feel bowed.

[Dorothy]

He did choose to go in front of the most hostile crowd and program he could possibly have chosen. Being gentle there was almost an impossibility. I wonder why he chose to do it? To confront his dragons? To reach the most number of people?

The old adage that all exposure is good exposure?

No one is going to be able to convince most people that eating raw meat is ok except if they see someone do it and not die - and even then most are STILL going to be angry.

There is no one that is going to be convinced of anything unless they already have a generally open mind. None of us will. People are very easily brainwashed and very few think for themselves. We're ONLY trying to reach the people who already are unique people and help them - at least that's the way that I see it. Maybe he sees it the same way? 

[Chris]

Theres nothing wrong with stating your opinion and beliefs in this world. But, when you feel like you have to make up and falsify a degree so you can be taken seriously. Well that's just plain wrong! I'm sure he felt like he had to do it, in order for people to take notice of him and take him seriously at the sametime. Heck, I could state my own opinions and theory's too. But, most people wouldn't take notice, or give me the time of day. But, if you put Dr. , and Professor in front of my name, people take notice. I agree with a fellow poster, that titles are subjective. Look at all the people who have Nutrition Degrees out there preaching what we should eat and what we shouldn't (rubbish). There are people in this forum that have more knowledge about nutrition than they ever will. I don't care how many credentials they have, when your wrong your wrong. There preaching what they have learned in school and growing up, talk about being brainwashed. IMO, the new/old food pyramid is so flawed beyond belief! "The so called Experts"? GMAFB! You maybe able to deny a person connected to this diet (Aajonus), but you can never deny this diet, and the effects it has had with all who have practiced it. He did bring attention to eating raw meats, and with that, he has help numerous people see the possibility's with a raw meat diet, that they otherwise wouldn't have. There's no denying that!

[Dorothy]

So Chris - do you think the ends justifies the means in this case?

[Chris]

Dorothy, what do you mean? Please elaborate.......

[Dorothy]

Well, you say that you understand why AV did what he did, that degrees don't necessarily mean much when it comes to nutrition, that AV has spread the word and done a lot of good but wouldn't have been able to be taken seriously or done so if he didn't make up a degree yet at the same time what he did was wrong in lying about the degree.

Did the end (meaning doing a lot of people a lot of good by spreading the word about raw foods) justify (make ok, right,  positive, good) his means (lying about having a degree).

Some people believe that the end never justifies the means (one should never do something intrinsically wrong to accomplish a greater good) and some people believe that to do a small wrong to achieve a great good is justifiable and believe that one should always be looking at the highest good, the overall outcome, the big picture and if a small lie has to be thrown in - it's ok - because what is one small lie when so much good is done?

It's an age-old philosophical question. Does the end justify the means? 

[Chris]

My issue with people like Aajonus, is his credibility as a person. I'm not justifying what he did, but I understand why he did it. IMO, this decision by him was based on financial reasons. His goal was to make a buck off his knowledge, and gain national attention. It worked! He was a guest on the Dr's, ect. He used a phony baloney degree, thinking that would get him the credibility that he needs to get noticed. It worked. When you play with fire, sometimes you get burned. IMO, he didn't need to lower his standards to this degree, to pass on his knowledge to others. He may not be a fake, but he surely is a lier. I'm not a big fan of Aajonus to be honest with you. He's not the reason I stared this diet. It's funny, because a lot of us know a lot about nutrition. But, you don't see us trying to be someone who we aren't! Ironically, he didn't need a degree to spread his knowledge and ideas. You don't need a degree to justify a diet or a way of life (IMO). Some of us here are free thinkers. Were not robots, to be trained by only one way of thinking. We don't like to be told to do this, or do that. We look for other alternatives, because we feel there is a much better solution out there. One thing I noticed about the members in this site/forum, we have a lot of free thinkers among us. I like that!

[Dorothy]

Ok - so I'm getting a "no" from you Chris. The end did not justify the means in your opinion. You think he could have achieved similar or the same without the deception. You believe the means were based on greed over any other motivation and not him having a lofty ideal. Here at the forum none of us have money or fame as a motivation. We're free thinkers sharing our knowledge and experience for free - not having to make up degrees.

Fair enough.

Does anyone else believe that AV's end justified his means?

[Chris]

You thin he could have achieved similar or the same without the deception. You believe the means were based on greed over any other motivation and not him having a lofty ideal.

Hi Dorothy: Do I think he could have achieved a similar result without the deception? I guess we'll never know will we? But, why not! Why sell yourself out and deceive all the people who look up to you, and have faith in you? Not to mention the people (suckers) that pay his $85 annual membership fees on his sight! Don't you think they deserve a little honesty and integrity? I do, I would want to know what I'm buying and paying for. He's not a prophet, and he's not the "leader" in the RPD movement! I personally was never a big fan of his. I don't believe in his food choices/variations in "his" version of the RFD. I'm more of a traditionalist and a simplest in theory. I'm not here to play executioner! The thing you have to understand, is that he knew what he was doing all along. How arrogant is that? IMO, I feel like he used the diet as a platform for himself, and his self fulfilling desire for fame and fortune. How else would you explain his actions? If his "lofty ideal" was to deceive his followers, than he succeeded! What did he really accomplish? We'll he has a few books for sale, he charges a nice annual membership fee to his site, he get's even invited to be on the Dr's TV show to promote himself further. Granted he did expose people to the RFD, and the possibilities of what the diet can do for you. But, don't give him too much credit. The RFD is promoted by this website and it's members too, and it's free! Granted we don't have the platform he does, but our intentions are not to manipulate people and deceive them like he does. IMO, his goals were never the greater needs of the RFD, but in the greater needs for himself! The diet was alway's secondary to his own aspirations. Basically he used the diet as a stepping stone/platform to personal fame. How else would you explain his choices of deceit and manipulation?

[Dorothy]

Hi Chris. Do you want to know my opinion then? It's limited - but still will take some space to give here.

I think he did the best he could have on that doctors show considering what it is. I can't speak to why he chose to do anything or how much of anything he says is true or not - except that I'm pretty sure he was abused as a child and that I don't think he's telling the whole truth about being given animals to eat by animals as I've said before on the forum just by analyzing him in terms of truth detection techniques.  He could have been acting purely out of greed or out of wanting to help the most people he could but I have no way of knowing that unless I ask him directly and watch his face and body.

I don't like making assumptions about people's motivations. I tend to live my own life with the predisposition that ends do not justify means so I don't make any goals beyond what I can achieve with all my ends falling into line with my own ethical parameters - which are pretty severe. For instance I don't lie (which can get pretty intense living in a world where lying is so generally accepted). That being said, I also don't tend to judge others too harshly - as I have had my own motivations misjudged by others lots of times and I tend to the empathic, compassionate side of most arguments by my nature. People tend to see and hear usually what they want to - so I try my best to approach things generally in an analytic manner when I can. When I ask you what you think, it does not imply that I think a certain way. I really like learning about how others perceive things. I was curious to know if you thought that what he achieved, if lying was the only way to achieve it (which we will never really know as you pointed out) was an end that was worth the deception for those that he has helped. If the only way for him to have been able to help the people that he did (like quite a few people here say that he has) was to lie, then, would those ends justify the means?

It's really the question regarding AV isn't it? Some people here had their lives saved by him. They might never have learned about raw meat if he didn't build up a tiny empire on his lies.

What do y'all think?

I don't judge him one way or another. I know I wouldn't do what he did. I also haven't accomplished what he has. Perhaps if I had my life saved I wouldn't care one hoot about the lies. In my armchair though having arrived here from a totally different road than AV - I've only read his cookbook and that was AFTER learning about raw paleo from PaleoPhil), I can analytically say that I always choose the purest means I can and tend to respect that path the most assuming that eventually the truth will find it's way out. I want knowledge, support, truth, ideas all to be free to everyone and as pure as they can be. But I also could be called naive. That's not how our modern day world works is it? People lie constantly, manipulate, work the system. Sometimes personally I feel like a fish out of water in such a world. That's why I just don't judge... or I'd be in constant negative judgment. AV is no different than most of the people I meet in the world.

So, I CHOOSE to just look to the truth around the lies and focus on that. I have worked hard in my life to learn how to discern lies from the truth. That's why I study lie detection. I am determined to set my consciousness pointed towards truth and ignore, sidestep, dismiss and avoid lies as much as I can. In a world that works that functions almost entirely on lies, trying to just makes myself aware of them is more than enough for my plate.

Aajanous Vonderplanitz lied. True. Show me a dozen adults who don't lie most days to themselves or others and then I'll get worked up about it.

[Chris]

I appreciate and respect your opinions and viewpoints on the subject matter Dorothy. I'm not here to judge anyone either. Yes, I may have a different point of view than others. But, I also like to hear other peoples perspectives as well. These are my views, and my opinions and nothing else. Take them for what there worth. You may agree, you may disagree, or you may agree to disagree.  . I continue to be impressed by the diversity and knowledge of the members in our forum. It's very stimulating, sharing and leaning from each other!

[Dorothy]

Isn't it though - stimulating sharing and learning here?! I totally respect your opinions Chris - it's why I asked for them.

And btw - I don't judge people for judging people either - except when I do.     

[CitrusHigh]

Who wants to wager whether Aajonus had a hand in this? Not a value judgement, the whole thing is super convoluted and everyone involved is asking for whatever they get, obviously someone's in to some shady shit here.

http://www.naturalnews.com/036611_James_Stewart_Bounty_Hunters_Ventura_county.html

[svrn]

the question is whether he was siezed for perpetrating fraud or simply for selling raw milk. this is a very important question.