What is inside meat that we need and has been beneficial to our evolution?

[cobalamin]

I'm curious.

Conjugated linoleic acid?

Stearic acid?

Fatty acids in general?

[aLptHW4k4y]

protein

[cobalamin]

It can't be as simple as protein. Anything else come to mind.

[Projectile Vomit]

I don't think meat is what drove our evolution. I think it was the fat that our ancestors found with the meat in the animals they scavenged or killed. Our big brains are made of fat, after all. If you want to be more specific, I'd guess saturated fat and/or cholesterol are the most important biomolecules.

[LePatron7]

There's a lot of nutrients in meats that are important.

Like Eric said, the fats. Theres things like the Essential Fatty Acids omega 3 and 6 which can't be found in plant foods.

The brain is 60% fat, and 30% of the is omega 3 DHA and EPA.

Pastured meats have a great ratio of omega 3:6, usually 1:1, which is ideal.

There's also the numerous amino acids which you can get from plants, but most are incomplete proteins (don't contain all the Essential Amino Acids.

Also, in raw meat the nutrients aren't denatured. I think I've red lysine and arginine go rancid, but there may be others. Meat's one of the best ways to get aminos.

Raw cholesterol is said to have healing properties too.

There's probably tons of properties in raw meat that haven't been discovered, and since it's something that likely won't get much research in that area. Although some has emerged.

[cobalamin]

I don't think meat is what drove our evolution. I think it was the fat that our ancestors found with the meat in the animals they scavenged or killed. Our big brains are made of fat, after all. If you want to be more specific, I'd guess saturated fat and/or cholesterol are the most important biomolecules.

This is what I also thought since the smartest animals eat more fat and strive to eat more fat however these animals also have complex social systems. Maybe mammals cooperatively working together to find fatty food.

Like Eric said, the fats. Theres things like the Essential Fatty Acids omega 3 and 6 which can't be found in plant foods.

AA and DHA are produced as needed. They aren't hormones; the DHA theory is bunk. The monounsatured fats most likely drove evolution by raising testosterone levels in pregnant women. Men have bigger everything because of testosterone.

The brain is 60% fat, and 30% of the is omega 3 DHA and EPA.

About 50 to 60 percent of the dry weight portion of the human brain consists of lipids. PUFAs constitute approximately 35 percent of that lipid content. Omega-3 fatty acids, particularly EPA and DHA, play important roles in the development and maintenance of normal central nervous system (CNS) structure and function. Along with the omega-6 fatty acid, AA, DHA is a major constituent of neuronal membranes, making up about 20 percent of the brain's dry weight.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK37653/#A185715

AA is just as important as DHA. EPA does not cross the blood brain barrier.

Pastured meats have a great ratio of omega 3:6, usually 1:1, which is ideal.

The ratio theory is bunk. Oils are bad because the fatty acids are oxidized.

There's also the numerous amino acids which you can get from plants, but most are incomplete proteins (don't contain all the Essential Amino Acids.

Plants are the only one's with the enzymes for the synthesis of the Essential Amino Acids.  I dislike bias a lot.

Also, in raw meat the nutrients aren't denatured. I think I've red lysine and arginine go rancid, but there may be others. Meat's one of the best ways to get aminos.

You mean as opposed to cooking it? Then I agree. I agree that meat is one of the best ways to get aminos.

Raw cholesterol is said to have healing properties too.

This is exaggeration. We can make more than enough cholesterol, as needed, from Vitamin D synthesis on the skin to producing hormones.

There's probably tons of properties in raw meat that haven't been discovered, and since it's something that likely won't get much research in that area. Although some has emerged.

I am curious and open-minded. Feel free to post this emerged research.

[LePatron7]

"AA and DHA are produced as needed. They aren't hormones; the DHA theory is bunk."

I never said they're hormones. And could you elaborate the "DHA theory." Also, it's my understanding DHA is onl made from ALA, and in small amounts. Not amounts sufficient for optimal health.


About 50 to 60 percent of the dry weight portion of the human brain consists of lipids. PUFAs constitute approximately 35 percent of that lipid content. Omega-3 fatty acids, particularly EPA and DHA, play important roles in the development and maintenance of normal central nervous system (CNS) structure and function. Along with the omega-6 fatty acid, AA, DHA is a major constituent of neuronal membranes, making up about 20 percent of the brain's dry weight.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK37653/#A185715

"AA is just as important as DHA. EPA does not cross the blood brain barrier."

Since when did EPA not cross the blood brain barrier? The article you posted says "Omega-3 fatty acids, particularly EPA and DHA, play important roles in the development and maintenance of normal central nervous system (CNS) structure and function."

"The ratio theory is bunk. Oils are bad because the fatty acids are oxidized."

What ratio theory are you referring to? It's well documented that animals grazing on pastures (cows, chickens, etc.) Have a better omega 3:6 ratio. Conventional live stock can have 20:1 omega 6:3, while pastured is typically 1:1. Also, I never said anything about oils.

Plants are the only one's with the enzymes for the synthesis of the Essential Amino Acids.  I dislike bias a lot.

You mean as opposed to cooking it? Then I agree. I agree that meat is one of the best ways to get aminos.

"This is exaggeration. We can make more than enough cholesterol, as needed, from Vitamin D synthesis on the skin to producing hormones."

Actually, Vitamin D is made from cholesterol. Cholesterol is a precursor to Vitamin D.

"I am curious and open-minded. Feel free to post this emerged research."

Actually, I was referring to the studies showing HCA's and AGE's are produced by cooking. I misworded it. I'm sure more research will emerge showing the damaging effects of cooking.

[aLptHW4k4y]

It can't be as simple as protein. Anything else come to mind.

Yeah it's pretty simple.
Fat can be easily manufactured from both carbs and protein.. and cholesterol is made in the liver.
Your body is a lot of protein, unless you're obese. Muscles, organs, enzymes, hormones, and so on, it's all proteins, that are constantly recycled.

[Alive]

I understood that greens had all of the essential amino acids, it is just seeds that are unbalanced.

By eating most / all of another animal raw I would think that by the very nature of consuming something built the same way as you would make for all your nutrition being supplied.

[goodsamaritan]

I'm curious.

Conjugated linoleic acid?

Stearic acid?

Fatty acids in general?

Maybe we were genetically engineered / modified by aliens to be this way?

[cobalamin]

Yeah it's pretty simple.
Fat can be easily manufactured from both carbs and protein.. and cholesterol is made in the liver.
Your body is a lot of protein, unless you're obese. Muscles, organs, enzymes, hormones, and so on, it's all proteins, that are constantly recycled.

I never thought someone would write what you wrote. I always hear the typical mark sisson lines... we don't need carbs since we can make them from protein... at the cost of our health.

Don't we need carbs to stimulate protein synthesis?

Since when are hormones made from protein? I thought all hormones were made from cholesterol, cholesterol made from acetyl-coa, acetyl-coa is made from carbs or fat.

I would say that we mostly need protein for our brain.

I understood that greens had all of the essential amino acids, it is just seeds that are unbalanced.

By eating most / all of another animal raw I would think that by the very nature of consuming something built the same way as you would make for all your nutrition being supplied.

http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/nut-and-seed-products/3163/2

Incomplete protein is a myth that was created by a nutritionist with no biochemistry education.

I wonder how hard it is on the lymphatic system eating in a carnivorous way.

Maybe we were genetically engineered / modified by aliens to be this way?

Hahahaha.. I thought so too but now I am questioning whether I really need meat since I am seeing the human biochemistry in a totally different light. I've already debunked the Vitamin B12, tryptophan and cellulose myths. Now I am really questioning whether I biochemically need meat for anything else but protein.

I understand from reading your posts on the forum that you were a fruitarian for a short while. I'm curious.. what did you eat? and how much did you eat?

Did you eat fresh leafy greens?

Did you exercise? ....to stimulate muscle synthesis.

It seems like the veg path would work with enough carbs to produce the non-essential fats, with freshly picked leafy greens for protein/omega 3's and freshly picked nuts for extra non-essential fats/protein/omega 6's/insulation. Plus activity.. barefoot walking/running as natural locomotion to stimulate protein synthesis. Just theorizing and it seems impossible to accomplish without a piece of land or greenhouse.

Any ex-vegans wanna add to why the veg life doesn't work? I would like to hear someone's perspective before going down this path.

[goodsamaritan]

I did raw vegan ( greens and fruit ) under the tutelage of Dr. Tam Mateo. 2 months.

I did raw fruitarian while asking questions at the forum of Barefoot Herbalist MH. 2 months.

Both were nutritional disasters for me.

Too skinny, wasting away... and too cold... in tropical Philippines.

I didn't know about paleo diet then, not even raw paleo diet.  I just did what I stumbled onto.

I discovered Wai Diet... that adding raw sea food and egg yolks to my fruitarian was a simple step.

Then BOOM! I immediately bounced back to health.

And this is why I'm convinced I need meat.  The health bounce was instant.

---

As for B12 needs, my wife had bouts of B12 deficiency.  When she was deficient... she gorged on my blendered raw liver and raw onions... funny how she ate a big bowl in one sitting really fast. 

B12 shot also stabilized her.


-------

I've already debunked the Vitamin B12, tryptophan and cellulose myths.

Where is this?

[Charlie4444]

It seems the truth is, "life gives life", meaning eating something as close to when it was alive is going to be digested and given to the eater as a booster of life. 

[Projectile Vomit]

It seems the truth is, "life gives life", meaning eating something as close to when it was alive is going to be digested and given to the eater as a booster of life. 

I also think fermented raw foods are boosters of life. I'm becoming quite a fan of fermented foods.

And, indeed, we do make fat from excess carbohydrates and protein, but we turn these excesses into a certain kind of fat that's useful as an energy store but not for building blocks. We need certain types of fat and cholesterol to make, for instance, the myelin shealths around our nerves and that insulate the connections between neurons in our big brains. We can't make these types of fat, we need to eat them. This is why I think fat is more vital a part of animal foods than the 'meat', which we eat mostly to get protein. I certainly do best and am at my most thoughtful and creative when I'm on a high-animal fat, high cholesterol diet.

[aLptHW4k4y]

I never thought someone would write what you wrote. I always hear the typical mark sisson lines... we don't need carbs since we can make them from protein... at the cost of our health.

In the end the point is, we can't make amino acids ourselves. And it's a lot easier on the body to turn carbs into fat than protein into carbs.

Don't we need carbs to stimulate protein synthesis?

Since when are hormones made from protein? I thought all hormones were made from cholesterol, cholesterol made from acetyl-coa, acetyl-coa is made from carbs or fat.

I would say that we mostly need protein for our brain.

I'm not sure why would you relate any carbs to protein synthesis.. vitamins, minerals, enzymes, probably yes, but carbs??
And ok, some hormones are from cholesterol, some are proteins.
Why do we need most protein for the brain?? The brain is 1.5kg max, like 2% of the body weight.

[Dorothy]

Any ex-vegans wanna add to why the veg life doesn't work? I would like to hear someone's perspective before going down this path?

I'll take on this question Cob - but from an experiential stance rather than from a scientific stance. I've been experimenting a very long time and within that time what we "need", what is "good", what is "essential" and what foods have what has changed so many times that my head spins. So here's why I wouldn't go completely vegan. I spent about a decade trying to become a vegan, about a decade as a vegan and about a decade as a vegetarian. All during these 30 years I always felt amazing when I went 100% raw ... for about 3 - 6 months. I got sooo much energy - but eventually the energy would increase to the point where I just couldn't express it. I would be running up and down the stairs just to get my manic energy out. I would just dance around. I wasn't an athlete and didn't do hard physical labor and didn't want to. Meditation and groundedness and being able to be stable and quiet were also things I needed in my life. So when I would get to "animated" to the point where I thought I would explode I would just add in more cooked food - like steamed veggies and brown rice. But I did go literally decades  without meat and I was just fine. I ate as much fat as I could on such a diet. When all RAW vegan I got real skinny, but with even just a little cooked vegan the weight came right back on. Remember - I've done this more times than I can count! My emphasis has always been on how to stay raw because I've come to understand that for me raw is really the way to go. I've never felt better than those first few months, over and over.

When moving to Texas for the first time in my life I got access to raw milk and then was able to get my own chickens and then learned that eating grass-fed and wild meats RAW was actually ok and good. The real boon to this for me is the FAT! I can get the fat that I need so much easier! It's darn hard getting enough raw fat as a vegan or a vegetarian. But also, I can't explain why - but being all raw without at least some animal foods is imbalancing for me. Staying all raw with some raw animal foods is easy in comparison. I need less food, I'm not jumping out of my skin... so far.... and fatty raw animal foods are seeming to be doing my brain some real good as I can tell I can do more with it.

I eat dramatically less animal foods than most people here. I'm basically a raw vegan that eats some raw animal foods.... and I've been a vegan and been successful at it.... and still my question to you is: If you have access to good quality animal foods and you know you can eat them raw and you know how good it has been for so many here and you know that there has been no culture that has not eaten some animal foods... why would you want to experiment with excluding them???

[cobalamin]

Where is this?

In my head and on my encrypted USB drive.

You didn't answer my questions.

I grew up starving daily and know what wasting away is. Its not eating enough calories and not getting enough protein. There is a big difference from not eating enough because of laziness and actually trying it.

Were you also deficient in Iron and Vitamin D? ("too cold... in tropical Philippines")

It seems the truth is, "life gives life", meaning eating something as close to when it was alive is going to be digested and given to the eater as a booster of life.

I've never had raw meat give me this boost of life but lots of vegetables eaten alone have given me this boost of life lately.

In the end the point is, we can't make amino acids ourselves. And it's a lot easier on the body to turn carbs into fat than protein into carbs.

We can't makes carbs and fats ourselves either. We need protein, carbs, fats, vitamins and minerals as a complete package.

I'm not sure why would you relate any carbs to protein synthesis.. vitamins, minerals, enzymes, probably yes, but carbs??
And ok, some hormones are from cholesterol, some are proteins.
Why do we need most protein for the brain?? The brain is 1.5kg max, like 2% of the body weight.

Monosaccharides are important fuel molecules as well as building blocks for nucleic acids(DNA and RNA).

Carbohydrates are anabolic with protein when muscles are stimulated. Simply by walking.
http://broscience.com/broscience-com-approved-articles/367-carbohydrates-anabolic.html

Even though the brain is only 2% of the bodyweight, it uses 20% of the total energy and it needs a lot of neurotransmitters which are made from protein.

I eat dramatically less animal foods than most people here. I'm basically a raw vegan that eats some raw animal foods.... and I've been a vegan and been successful at it.... and still my question to you is: If you have access to good quality animal foods and you know you can eat them raw and you know how good it has been for so many here and you know that there has been no culture that has not eaten some animal foods... why would you want to experiment with excluding them??

I've never eaten a lot of meat either.

I want to experiment because I've gotten into the biochemistry and bacteriology of humans from a perspective that has never been written about. I now see meat as survival food and nothing else. There is absolutely nothing in meat that I see that I can't get from a variety of natural veg foods and can be co-produced with bacteria.

I see that cultures do and have been doing what they need to do to survive for a long time and nothing else. We humans are still primates and like all primates.. the majority learn from each other even though the teachings could be wrong. Even though billions of people do something.. it doesn't make it scientifically correct.

I don't believe muscle meat has had a beneficial factor to anyone since its protein and fats. Organ meats is what has been beneficial to most since they contain a lot of pre-formed vitamins. So.. if someone is deficient in Vitamin A, D, K2 and folic acid.. liver and other organ meats will be very beneficial. All in all... those that are deficient in fat soluble vitamins need to eat organ meats because of their inactivity and laziness.

I'm off to experiment with a plant based diet.

[Dorothy]

I wish you great luck with your experiment cobalamin. I've been there and done that, so I understand the allure. I also understand where you are coming from that just because everyone does something doesn't make it true or right for you. Just remember that a great many people at this forum say that they have tried exclusively plant based diets and gotten themselves quite ill in the process. I was lucky I guess that it agreed with me - up to a point - it just couldn't take me all the way to where I wanted to go. I suggest not to get stuck in your mind or beliefs so much that if you start not to feel your best that you get stubborn. I've seen that happen lots with people that are purely vegetarians and especially vegans. I give you a friendly warning not to ignore symptoms or try to talk them away. Also, if I might suggest, I would ask someone who doubts what you are doing and knows you well to monitor you mental functioning. Sadly what can happen is that when someone goes raw vegan it sometimes can result in malfunctions of the brain due to deficiencies and then the person can't perceive that there is something wrong because the organ that they need to inform them is sick.  Maybe write out a letter to yourself at the start of symptoms that you will take as indicators that there is something wrong. People here have spoken of many ways in which their brain function suffered and I'm sure they would give you a good list of them if you asked. And then I would give it to the person you trust, knows you and doubts... to hold and ask them to show it to you in case you are not capable of thriving on a plant alone diet.

Again - I wish you success.

[cherimoya_kid]

Yeah, good luck.  Please report back to us.  When you report back, if you've started down the road to brain damage from fat or B-12 deficiency, that will definitely be a good object lesson for others.  Rest assured, any such brain damage will be clear in your posts, even if you're not aware of it.

[goodsamaritan]

In my head and on my encrypted USB drive.

You didn't answer my questions.

I thought I did answer your questions.  Did I waste my time typing for you?

Just like Aajonus, I heal people of medically "incurable" diseases.

And so far, just like Aajonus' experience, same with my pro-healer buddies... it seems sick people need real animal meat and animal fat... aside from vegetables and fruits.

I think we have a thread here that related our successes with raw paleo diet and I inputted several of my cases there.

The fact that sick people are cured with raw meat and raw fat convinces me that people do need animal food.

[RawZi]

Any ex-vegans wanna add to why the veg life doesn't work? I would like to hear someone's perspective before going down this path.

    My reasons are personal. If you want veges that bad, more power to you.  Raw animal foods help my health.

[aLptHW4k4y]

We can't makes carbs and fats ourselves either. We need protein, carbs, fats, vitamins and minerals as a complete package.

You're missing the point, but whatever.

Monosaccharides are important fuel molecules as well as building blocks for nucleic acids(DNA and RNA).

Carbohydrates are anabolic with protein when muscles are stimulated. Simply by walking.
http://broscience.com/broscience-com-approved-articles/367-carbohydrates-anabolic.html

nucleic acids != protein, and no comment on the broscience.

Even though the brain is only 2% of the bodyweight, it uses 20% of the total energy and it needs a lot of neurotransmitters which are made from protein.

I'm not sure how 20% of the energy (carbs or whatever) and some neurotransmitters translate to a "major user of protein in the body".

[goodsamaritan]

I don't believe muscle meat has had a beneficial factor to anyone since its protein and fats. Organ meats is what has been beneficial to most since they contain a lot of pre-formed vitamins. So.. if someone is deficient in Vitamin A, D, K2 and folic acid.. liver and other organ meats will be very beneficial. All in all... those that are deficient in fat soluble vitamins need to eat organ meats because of their inactivity and laziness.

I'm off to experiment with a plant based diet.

Oh, so you haven't tried a meat - less diet yet like most of us have?

Well good skill to you and hope you post here again after a few months or a few years.

[Alive]

Hi cobalamin,
remember that:

1) No hunter-gatherers were vegetarians
'No hunter-gatherer population is entirely or largely dependent (86–100% subsistence) on gathered plant
foods, whereas 20% (n = 46) are highly or solely dependent (86–100%) on fished and hunted animal foods.'
http://www.ajcn.org/content/71/3/682.full.pdf

2) All our primate relatives eat animal foods - insects, eggs, monkeys...

3) Chimps and gorillas have very large hind guts to obtain far more energy from vegetation than we can: http://donmatesz.blogspot.co.nz/2011/02/more-raw-truth-about-raw-vegan-diets.html

[cobalamin]

I also think fermented raw foods are boosters of life. I'm becoming quite a fan of fermented foods.

And, indeed, we do make fat from excess carbohydrates and protein, but we turn these excesses into a certain kind of fat that's useful as an energy store but not for building blocks. We need certain types of fat and cholesterol to make, for instance, the myelin shealths around our nerves and that insulate the connections between neurons in our big brains. We can't make these types of fat, we need to eat them. This is why I think fat is more vital a part of animal foods than the 'meat', which we eat mostly to get protein. I certainly do best and am at my most thoughtful and creative when I'm on a high-animal fat, high cholesterol diet.

Protective Myelin is 70% Fat
Myelin, the protective sheath that covers communicating neurons, is composed of 30% protein and 70% fat. One of the most common fatty acids in myelin is oleic acid, which is also the most abundant fatty acid in human milk and in our diet.

Monosaturated oleic acid is the main component of olive oil as well as the oils from almonds, pecans, macadamias, peanuts, and avocados.
Source: http://www.fi.edu/learn/brain/fats.html#fatsbuild

Grass-fed beef is very low in oleic acid and omega 6. Nuts are high in oleic acid and omega 6.

Our biochemistry seems to favour nuts. Nuts seem nutritionally superior to beef or maybe I am missing something?

Dorothy, Thank you. Your comment means a lot, I will take everything you said into account and I agree with it 100%!

Yeah, good luck.  Please report back to us.  When you report back, if you've started down the road to brain damage from fat or B-12 deficiency, that will definitely be a good object lesson for others.  Rest assured, any such brain damage will be clear in your posts, even if you're not aware of it.

Hahahaha!! Scientifically it seems that if I avoid nuts.. I will suffer brain damage. As for B12, find out how other primates make the vitamin and you'll see that we make it exactly the same way.

RawZi, were you deficient in Vitamin D and fats?

aLptHW4k4y, I understood you perfectly but some people like myself need more of everything than others. Protein is important but so are all the other nutrients.. like water, folic acid, magnesium, calcium which are abundant in plant foods. I'm sure you know that all nutrients work together in synergy.

goodsamaritan, You didn't tell me how much fruit you ate. I have not tried a plant based diet because I am not the typical person that jumps in without the truth. I agree with you that organ meats are beneficial to those that are sick with deficiencies but you have to understand that I am not sick.

The fact that sick people are cured with raw meat and raw fat convinces me that people do need animal food.

People with deficiencies and people fighting for survival need animal food. There are other factors to take into account.. activity, sunshine and happiness. Vitamin D plays a major role into the equilibrium of our biochemistry.

alive, Nice pictures. I never said we were herbivores. Our short colon proves that we can't ferment much vegetation but a little vegetation we do need for folic acid, magnesium and calcium.

All our primate relatives eat animal foods... when food is scarce to survive. All mammals have protease enzymes to digest flesh; including cows, sheeps, horses, etc.. Cow in India eats 48 chickens! - Poor cow was most likely starving.

Since it seems that you're "thinking for yourself", tell me how all those primates produce Vitamin B12. Hint: primates in zoo's become deficient in Vitamin B12 and Vitamin B12 is UV sensitive, so.. B12 is impossible to find on a leaf.