What is inside meat that we need and has been beneficial to our evolution?

[LePatron7]

Protective Myelin is 70% Fat
Myelin, the protective sheath that covers communicating neurons, is composed of 30% protein and 70% fat. One of the most common fatty acids in myelin is oleic acid, which is also the most abundant fatty acid in human milk and in our diet.

Monosaturated oleic acid is the main component of olive oil as well as the oils from almonds, pecans, macadamias, peanuts, and avocados.
Source: http://www.fi.edu/learn/brain/fats.html#fatsbuild

Grass-fed beef is very low in oleic acid and omega 6. Nuts are high in oleic acid and omega 6.

Our biochemistry seems to favour nuts. Nuts seem nutritionally superior to beef or maybe I am missing something?

"The first problem is that almost half of the fat in beef is a monounsaturated fat called oleic acid—the same heart-healthy fat that's found in olive oil."

From - http://www.menshealth.com/mhlists/saturated_fat/printer.php

"30% of the fat from grass-fed beef is oleic acid, the heart healthy fat found in olive oil"

from - http://achievemorefitness.com/?p=963

[Dorothy]

The problem with olive oil cob is finding any that isn't rancid. It's rare. There are certain stores that specialize only in olive oil buying quickly from small growers and putting a HARVEST DATE on the label. There is one here in Austin and I got my first fresh tasting olive oil in decades there. If you are going to depend on olive oil or olives you will have to access a really good source with the harvest date on the bottle. It's not easy and it's expensive - but it's the only way to not be poisoning yourself with oil rather than helping yourself.

It's hard to find good sources of grass-fed beef fat but it's even harder to find good fresh plant oils!

[Dorothy]

Miker Alive - that picture freaked me out! If it weren't for the long forearms I'd swear those were some people I know!

[cobalamin]

DaBoss88,

Those articles contain a lot of bias and no references.

I was comparing the beef to nuts. Obviously Grass-fed is healthy and grain-fed is poison because of the type of saturated fat that raises LDL cholesterol.

Whats wrong with nuts?

Beef doesn't contain many omega 6's.

Dorothy,

I totally agree, even here in Italian superstores its hard to find quality olive oil unless one has Italian grandparents from the south of Italy who cold press it every year. 

My grandma from the south of Italy is atleast 500lbs and her olive oil has kept her alive for years even after eating all those cooked animal products and grains. Shes about to hit 90.

[LePatron7]

DaBoss88,

Those articles contain a lot of bias and no references.

I was comparing the beef to nuts. Obviously Grass-fed is healthy and grain-fed is poison because of the type of saturated fat that raises LDL cholesterol.

Whats wrong with nuts?

Beef doesn't contain many omega 6's.

Pastured meats still have omega 6, just a more balanced ratio of 3:6. But when did it become so important to consume lot's of omega 6? It's my understanding that it's ideal to have about a 1:1 ratio omega 3:6 to prevent inflamation. And you don't really get much of any omega 3 in nuts (except maybe walnuts).

Sorry, I didn't see any sources from you showing there's very little oleic acid in pastured beef either. But it's my understanding that there's lots of oleic acid in beef. I think I saw something from the USDA trying to convince people beef is safe that showed what high levels of oleic acid it has.

Nonetheless, what you had said is nuts are more nutritious than pastured beef, which I disagree with.

[Dorothy]

Dorothy,

I totally agree, even here in Italian superstores its hard to find quality olive oil unless one has Italian grandparents from the south of Italy who cold press it every year. 

Oh - you lucky dog! I want an Italian grandma with an olive grove too.

[jessica]

this topic is so fucking esoteric...........really
you cant answer this with studies, we evolved with meat and meat evolved with us, just as every other thing in the universe is a constant and relative evolution that has no beginning or end, no particular goal, no real purpose, just that is is, and we should enjoy it and be more in awe of the experience then to make "sense" of it all

[Dorothy]

Yes Jessica, I think Cob is coming to this from a highly intellectual place. The thing is that he is healthy already so I can understand it as I came to eating raw from an intellectual place originally too and not from trying to cure something. That's why I caution him not to use just his brain but watch very carefully how his body reacts and more importantly to have someone ELSE that's not a believer to watch him too. I can tell that he is experimentally oriented. Still, there are many people that experimented with this and got quite ill without realizing it until they had already done themselves a good deal of harm. The intellect can be used to enhance what used to be so simple but no longer is ... diet choices. 

On that note - since you obviously like to do your research cob - how about starting a thread to ask everyone who has tried an only plant diet what it was that they ate and how it affected them? This way you could get some data from people that have gone before and who are not towing a party line or belief system. This place is filled with some pretty sharp people that have already done a good deal of experimentation. I imagine that such information could be very useful even if it's just not doing the same thing wrong that others did if you can find a pattern in their plant-based diets. Perhaps, the stories will change your mind or perhaps just make you more attune to what to watch out for in case things start to go wrong hopefully before any serious damage is done.

Are you planning on eating any animal foods? Are you going totally vegan? How long were you already raw paleo?   

[Ioanna]

how about something like compatibility... our body has to process plant nutrition to make what is bioactive for us, an inefficient process at best.  plus the animal does that for us.

every time i visit my farm i wish i could be vegetarian or even vegan... i love the animals!  but it doesn't work for me, i can't thrive that way.  my body is so happy and healthy when i eat animal foods.  i have to listen to that, no matter what my mind prefers.

[Alive]

I agree with you Ioanna, for me its it's facing my perception of reality.

If our ancestors have lived on between 5% and 90% raw animal foods for the last 100 million years it makes sense to continue.

@cobalamin - if you want to avoid eating meat, can you have eggs? 
Also microbe rich foods would be excellent, as the organisms would have upgraded a lot of nutrients for you.

[Dorothy]

every time i visit my farm i wish i could be vegetarian or even vegan... i love the animals!  but it doesn't work for me, i can't thrive that way.  my body is so happy and healthy when i eat animal foods.  i have to listen to that, no matter what my mind prefers.

This is it exactly Loanna - it's really about what the body wants. Some times though if we let it the mind can over power what the body is asking for and needs. That's the real trap that cob will have to make sure he doesn't fall into imho. We can too easily talk ourselves into things that eventually hit us between the eyes when it's too late. I've read so many vegans in another site listing serious illnesses and problems in my estimation as if they were normal or just ignoring them as "detoxes" etc.

[cobalamin]

DaBoss88, I am not starting a fight with you. I want you to see the truth instead of feeding me bias that has no basis with reality. Please forget the Omega ratio theory because it has no basis with reality.

No molecule causes inflammation in its natural state. None. Inflammation is caused by oxidized fatty acids, advanced glycation end products, etc... heated molecules. Every disease is caused by certain individuals fixation on manipulating everything without taking into account the negative consequences and teaching this destructive behaviour for generations upon generations.

Linoleic acid (Omega 6)
Linoleic acid is a polyunsaturated fatty acid occurring widely in plant glycerides or fats. Common sources include many vegetable oils such as flax seed, safflower, soybean, peanut, and corn; some margarines; and dairy fats. It is a colorless to straw-colored liquid, insoluble in water, but soluble in alcohol and ether. Linoleic acid is easily oxidized by air and is combustible.
Source: http://www.reciprocalnet.org/recipnet/showsamplebasic.jsp?sampleId=27344307

Omega 6's and other fatty acids are easily oxidized by air and obviously heat. Oils, cooked flesh, roasted nuts, pasteurized dairy, processed foods, etc.. should be avoided.

The linking of omega-6 intake to inflammation stems from the fact that arachidonic acid (AA), which can be formed from LA, is involved in the early stages of inflammation. However, the advisory explains that AA and LA also give rise to anti-inflammatory molecules.

For example, in the cells that form the lining of blood vessels, omega-6 PUFA have anti-inflammatory properties, suppressing the production of adhesion molecules, chemokines and interleukins — all of which are key mediators of the atherosclerotic process. “Thus, it is incorrect to view the omega-6 fatty acids as ‘pro-inflammatory,’” Harris explained. “Eating less LA will not lower tissue levels of AA (the usual rationale for reducing LA intakes) because the body tightly regulates the synthesis of AA from LA.”

Getting omega 3 fatty acids in your diet is still a good idea. Also, how you get your omega 6 fatty acids probably matters. For example, Nuts which are high in omega 6 also contain magnesium, vitamin E, and other beneficial nutrients. Whereas cooking oil delivers the omega 6 fats without as much of other nutrients.
Source: http://www.futurepundit.com/archives/005915.html
Avoid the rhetoric comments at the bottom of the article.

jessica, And the world was considered a cube long ago. I'm not stopping you from eating meat. No need to get angry about it. We are all individuals here and have the freedom to make our own choices.

how about something like compatibility... our body has to process plant nutrition to make what is bioactive for us, an inefficient process at best.  plus the animal does that for us.

Which nutrients and which type of plants?

There is a lot of factors to take into account when judging the efficiency of our biochemistry. Like a history of antibiotics which slaughtered the beneficial bacteria and a lack of Vitamin D plays a major role into the efficiency of the biochemistry.

alive, Our ancestors did it to survive just like capuchin monkeys eat animals when nuts are scarce. Capuchin monkeys having the closest gut morphology to us humans --- I live in the city. Its impossible finding fresh eggs. I might start eating meat again when it gets closer to winter. Now I'm going to experiment with soaking nuts. I'm lucky to have a factory close to where I live that imports nuts from around the world.

Dorothy, I've been raw meat/fish paleo with fruit, greens and baked potatoes for a couple months until I got an epiphany recently. Someone accidentally cut me with the scissors, small cut and I got blood phobic. Having meat nicely prepared for me is nice but what if I had to kill an animal myself and there is blood everywhere?

I agree with you, there is no such thing as detox symptoms. When we eat healthy, the body/mind feel stable and healthy. If I start feeling down, I know I will need fat.

I think it would be pointless asking what vegans ate because there is a lot of factors, especially gut bacteria health. Someone with healthy gut bacteria can easily digest the cellulose skin of tomatoes while someone with IBS majorly lacks these bacteria. A vegan telling me not to eat something because it doesn't work for them doesn't make it completely true while it will work with someone with healthy gut bacteria.

Thanks for the suggestions.

[CitrusHigh]

DaBoss88, No molecule causes inflammation in its natural state.

I'm sure that's the case! lol

Seriously though, Jess and Dorothy nailed it, science can stroke itself all it wants, but where the rubber hits the road is what set of foods your body responds to in health and growth and which it responds to with protection and defense.

Good foods make you feel good in a long lasting and deep way. Bad foods either treat you badly from the get go, or they provide just a quick high and then your system is left with the damage and cleanup afterwards, manifested as low energy along with specific accompanying symptoms.

[aLptHW4k4y]

No molecule causes inflammation in its natural state. None. Inflammation is caused by oxidized fatty acids, advanced glycation end products, etc... heated molecules.

Yeah right. No mater how "natural" the molecule, your body will oxidize it to get energy.
This generates a bunch of ROS, which are pretty damn inflammatory!
And btw, please get a degree in chemistry, biology, and nutrition, before saying I debunked this or that theory.

[Ioanna]

No molecule causes inflammation in its natural state. None.

ever get bitten by a spider?

[jessica]

jessica, And the world was considered a cube long ago. I'm not stopping you from eating meat. No need to get angry about it. We are all individuals here and have the freedom to make our own choices.

i am not angry, sorry i threw an f bomb in there! i am just saying that it is a super esoteric question to which there is no answer, because you can get smaller and smaller with the details only to notice that they become more and more infinitely complex, and the best we can do is grasp at creating a neat system of symbols that does not evolve of its self or relatively to how fast we "learn" more and how things keep changing

[Dorothy]

Dorothy, I've been raw meat/fish paleo with fruit, greens and baked potatoes for a couple months until I got an epiphany recently. Someone accidentally cut me with the scissors, small cut and I got blood phobic. Having meat nicely prepared for me is nice but what if I had to kill an animal myself and there is blood everywhere?

I agree with you, there is no such thing as detox symptoms. When we eat healthy, the body/mind feel stable and healthy. If I start feeling down, I know I will need fat.

I think it would be pointless asking what vegans ate because there is a lot of factors, especially gut bacteria health. Someone with healthy gut bacteria can easily digest the cellulose skin of tomatoes while someone with IBS majorly lacks these bacteria. A vegan telling me not to eat something because it doesn't work for them doesn't make it completely true while it will work with someone with healthy gut bacteria.

Thanks for the suggestions.

I ended up here because I started asking myself what I would be willing to do myself. I was definitely willing and able to raise chickens for eggs. I was willing to milk a cow. Those were easy. I then figured that I was willing to kill bugs so maybe I should try eating bugs if I weren't so socially conditioned. I would catch and kill fish if there was nothing else for me to eat so fish was ok for me too - but it was really rare I ate it. Then my mother got very ill and the only thing that helped her brain was raw animal foods. I didn't raise or prepare them myself, but it got me to thinking. Then, my husband started having problems. When I asked what I would kill for myself it stopped at the bugs since I didn't seem to really NEED meat, but what I would kill for my husband - for him to be well - that went all the way up the food chain and stopped not far below humans and if it were between some humans and my husband - I'd be really dangerous. 

That's how I ended up here eating raw meat. I was convinced raw meat was better for my husband than cooked so I sat in front of him (after being vegan or vegetarian for decades) and ate raw meat until he admitted that if the one person on the earth he thought would suffer from any meat was eating raw meat it had to be ok.

But now that I'm here I've realized that the eggs, fish and once in a month or two red meat and especially the raw fats from animals far exceeds anything I could get as a vegan or vegetarian. I didn't NEED them to live - but to really thrive being able to eat everything raw and not waste away into nothingness - for THAT I needed raw animal foods - even if just occasionally.

You are very lucky to have those good nuts/seeds. I love soaked nuts and seeds and eat them almost every day. It's a wonderful source of fats and proteins. It's just that you have to eat sooooo much of them to get anything near what one little bit of bone marrow or fatty fish can impart. What ended up happening on raw vegan is that I needed to eat so much food! It's one of the most expensive and time consuming ways to eat if you do it right.

My suggestion about asking people that have been vegan how it went wrong for them was to get a list of symptoms to watch out for - but it sounds like you will be stringent in watching your health.

Here's my next flight of fantasy in thinking about meat and eating it. If we were in a tribe, not everyone would hunt. As a woman in particular I might not be expected to hunt - but even if you had a phobia about blood or couldn't do it, you might be able to still be of value to the tribe and offer other foods to share. In our society we think of ourselves as sole providers - but our sourcing foods in a way has made us all into one big tribe together. If other people have to do the hunting and preparing - so what? If it's good for you, it's good. If you could survive or not on your own eating that way really isn't the question - it's too esoteric! The question in our modern society really has to be - "Out of all the foods available to me - which is the best for me to eat generally?" Good for me also includes" fits my budget, is available, is something I can and will do, best gives me what I need?

It sounds like you have great sources of olive oil and seeds. There's no reason not to use those sources. There is also no reason not to avail yourself of marvelous fat and protein sources that make eating well EASY.

Raw vegan is a hard thing to pull off. It's not that you can't necessarily - but I still don't understand why you would want to? Readily prepared meat/fat/organs is not a sin in our society. It doesn't seem like you have ethical reasons for not eating it either, so your decision still does not make logical sense to me. Why cut yourself away from good resources?

[goodsamaritan]

Our biochemistry seems to favour nuts. Nuts seem nutritionally superior to beef or maybe I am missing something?

Yes you missed something.  Actual, personal experience.

Aajonus' experiments with nut consumption for himself and for his patients is that nuts are hard to digest and interfere with meat consumption.  Besides the fact that they are nowhere near as nutritious as meat.  And it will depend on the nuts available to you.  Aajonus has a nut formula.

In the Philippines, the best local raw nut I can get my hands on is Pili nuts and I experimented with lots of them.  And my experiments led me to the same conclusions as Aajonus above.  Pili nuts interfere with meat consumption and nowhere near as nutritious as meat.

Go ahead and experiment... experimenting is fun.

[Dorothy]

Of course one would never eat nuts WITH meat!?  Do that just once and you know that's wrong.

Even when soaked, nuts can be hard for some people to digest.

That one might be personal. I can only get frozen red meat and too much makes gritty yucky stuff come out of my eyes, yet I can eat all the soaked nuts/seeds I want and feel great.

[goodsamaritan]

Of course one would never eat nuts WITH meat!?  Do that just once and you know that's wrong.

Even when soaked, nuts can be hard for some people to digest.

That one might be personal. I can only get frozen red meat and too much makes gritty yucky stuff come out of my eyes, yet I can eat all the soaked nuts/seeds I want and feel great.

I experimented with nuts at separate meals.  Not with meat in the same meal.  Even if I space 12 hours away, the nuts still interfere with meat digestion.

[Dorothy]

I experimented with nuts at separate meals.  Not with meat in the same meal.  Even if I space 12 hours away, the nuts still interfere with meat digestion.

Oh. Did you soak the nuts? Do you mean meat including seafood or just read meat?

[Ioanna]

i do not digest nuts whatsoever with the exception of some almond butter made with soaked almonds.  there is no way that my biochemistry favors nuts to meat.. trust me!

[goodsamaritan]

Oh. Did you soak the nuts? Do you mean meat including seafood or just read meat?

Pili nuts are this http://stuartxchange.com/Pili.html

No nut soaking.  I've never tried that. 

Meat for me is any animal terrestrial or marine.

[Dorothy]

I can't digest raw nuts well at all. Enzyme inhibitors I'd imagine. I soak all my nuts/seeds and usually make them into a cream, but also eat them dehydrated at low temperatures. You might want to try them again soaked GS. That looks like a beautiful tree. I'd love to try those!

Loanna, I reallly do love activated nutbutters.

I'm very glad that I can digest seeds well. I need them to be able to eat my fruit. I do so much better eating fruit when I mix them with activated nuts. The fat and protein (especially now that I'm no longer eating dairy) make fruit possible for me.

[TylerDurden]

Her username is "Ioanna", not "Loanna"!