Author Topic: Raw Alcoholic Beverages  (Read 17119 times)

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Offline PaleoPhil

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Raw Alcoholic Beverages
« on: June 18, 2012, 08:59:40 am »
Anyone aware of any other raw (unpasteurized) alcoholic beverages sold in the USA beyond these?:

> real ale (aka cask ale)
> traditional champagne
> nama sake
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline cherimoya_kid

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Re: Raw Alcoholic Beverages
« Reply #1 on: June 18, 2012, 12:37:38 pm »
No.

I used to get fresh-squeezed raw OJ from Whole Foods and put it in my fridge for a few days.  It ALWAYS fermented into alcohol.  Very tasty.

Offline Dorothy

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Re: Raw Alcoholic Beverages
« Reply #2 on: June 19, 2012, 12:31:55 am »
Wouldn't most wines be raw?

Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: Raw Alcoholic Beverages
« Reply #3 on: June 19, 2012, 05:54:09 am »
Nah.
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline Dorothy

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Re: Raw Alcoholic Beverages
« Reply #4 on: June 19, 2012, 06:19:16 am »
Dunno - just did some googling and it looks like most besides kosher are likely raw. It has to be able to age with bacteria - I mean eventually it becomes vinegar. Pasteurizing/heating they say makes for more cooked fruit flavor.

From the Wine of the Month club:

Quote
pasteurization is the process of killing bacteria via heating the fluid then quickly chilling it. Ironically, wines are not commonly pasteurized because bacteria are necessary for wines to properly age. Some simpler wines that are designed to be enjoyed young are occasionally pasteurized.

How about kombucha and ginger beer when left in a closed bottle.

Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: Raw Alcoholic Beverages
« Reply #5 on: June 19, 2012, 07:47:16 am »
Quote
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pasteurization

The process of heating wine for preservation purposes has been known in China since 1117,[2] and was documented in Japan in 1568 in the diary Tamonin-nikki.
However, the modern version of pasteurization involving immediate cooling is much more recent. It was created by the renowned French chemist and microbiologist Louis Pasteur after whom it was named. The first pasteurization test was completed by Louis Pasteur and Claude Bernard in April 1862.[3] The process was originally conceived as a way of preventing wine and beer from souring.[4]
The only unpasteurized wine I've come across via Google so far is non-mevushal Jewish wine. The neat thing about it is I can apparently defile it just by touching the bottle. I never knew I possessed such powers. ;)
Quote
Non-Mevushal wine could be drunk and served only by Sabbath-observing Jews. It could not be touched by a non-observant Jew. Actually, once the bottle is opened and it is touched by a non-Jew or even a non-observant Jew, the wine becomes non-kosher. http://www.taste-wine-and-enjoy.com/kosher-winemaking.html

Modern enology has not decided definitively whether flash pasteurization damages a wine’s character, quality and developmental possibilities. Jews in the trade say yes and no, depending on their stake in the answer. Many top-grade kosher wines are not mevushal; if a wine is mevushal, its label says so. http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/subjects/w/wines/kosher/index.html


One last thing — pasteurization. Sally Fallon says we are supposed to only drink “unpasteurized” wine and beer. I know there is a movement among breweries to make what they call “real ale”. It’s totally unpasteurized. Whereas beer from large corporate brewers is pasteurized. http://kellythekitchenkop.com/2010/01/do-you-drink-red-wine-every-day.html
So far, the only spirits I'm aware of that are unpasteurized at my local liquor store are Nama sake (which they only have in stock in season or intermittently, apparently) and Sierra Nevada Pale Ale. I don't think they're well-versed in what is unpasteurized, as they told me that a triple-distilled vodka is "unpasteurized," which I don't think is possible, as distilling involves heating, AFAIK.
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

CitrusHigh

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Re: Raw Alcoholic Beverages
« Reply #6 on: June 19, 2012, 07:48:04 am »
Rush River puts out an ass kicking line of beers, but I don't know if they're available beyond wisconsin here, actually check that, I think I found them in MN too, but it was a border town so who knows. They are quality though and I don't even like beer mostly, have only heard of one person not to like them, most people comment on how great it is.

You don't want to do your own ferment at home?

Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: Raw Alcoholic Beverages
« Reply #7 on: June 19, 2012, 07:49:26 am »
I do have a batch of raw mead brewing. No idea how it will come out, though, as it's my first. Fingers crossed.
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

CitrusHigh

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Re: Raw Alcoholic Beverages
« Reply #8 on: June 19, 2012, 07:57:07 am »
Oh snap! I used to use honey to sweeten my coffee. To make the honey easier to work with I'd mix it with water at room temp in a glass jar until the water dissolved the honey.  The honey, kept in the fridge, would always ferment before I'd get to it, and that stuff would be potent since it was allowed to ferment as long as it could. Delicious but I have no idea how anyone can drink a whole glass of the stuff, rich!

Offline Dorothy

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Re: Raw Alcoholic Beverages
« Reply #9 on: June 19, 2012, 07:58:18 am »
So Brian got into researching while I was about. He saw the wiki quote - but just because it can be pasteurized doesn't mean it is. He round these three links he wanted me to post for you on beer even though beer can't be truly raw.

http://jarticle.hubpages.com/hub/Unpasteurized_Beers

http://www.deschutesbrewery.com/brew/obsidian-stout

http://www.deschutesbrewery.com/brew/black-butte-porter

CitrusHigh

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Re: Raw Alcoholic Beverages
« Reply #10 on: June 19, 2012, 08:08:31 am »
I might be a bit dense, but can you explain why beer can't be raw? You're making me sad! Well not really since I don't usually go in for the stuff, but I'd like to be able to have an unpasteurized beer a couple times a year!

Offline jessica

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Re: Raw Alcoholic Beverages
« Reply #11 on: June 19, 2012, 08:30:25 am »
you have to boil the grains to convert the starches to sugars so that it can ferment into alcohol

Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: Raw Alcoholic Beverages
« Reply #12 on: June 19, 2012, 08:36:25 am »
No.

I used to get fresh-squeezed raw OJ from Whole Foods and put it in my fridge for a few days.  It ALWAYS fermented into alcohol.  Very tasty.
Yeah, I remember in my youth when I drank some fresh squeezed OJ that had fermented and remarked to my mother on how good it was. LOL

How about kombucha and ginger beer when left in a closed bottle.
Tried them, thanks. Kombucha is not for me and ginger beer unpleasantly scums up my teeth too much to drink more than a rare small bottle now and then (though it's not as bad as regular soda pop in this regard, unsurprisingly). I prefer the cleaner taste, finish and after effects of Kevita fermented coconut water and raw coconut water.

---

I find fermented honey (by which I do NOT mean mead--they are different things, with fermented honey not being significantly alcoholic, nor watery, for those unaware) far more digestible than unfermented, and I've never managed to get honey to ferment in the slightest, much less produce alcohol, just by putting it in water, not in the fridge, nor even when warmed, and I've never heard of it fermenting in the fridge. How I wish it were that easy for me. It's by far my favorite honey so far.

you have to boil the grains to convert the starches to sugars so that it can ferment into alcohol
Not according to the traditional Masai, nor this zombie dude ;) - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OZVf_CZaLb8#ws, who's basic method I'm trying.

Just water, warmth and exposure to air didn't work for me, nor for a Youtube vlogger, but adding yeast, like that zombie dude did, produced some bubbly evidence of fermentation. Fingers crossed.
« Last Edit: June 19, 2012, 08:52:12 am by PaleoPhil »
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline Dorothy

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Re: Raw Alcoholic Beverages
« Reply #13 on: June 19, 2012, 09:12:59 am »
The process of making beer includes boiling if I remember right. It's kinda like miso. The orginal plant matter is heated but then the fermentation is alive on the medium. Sorry Thoth.

edit - Jessica beat me to the punch while I was typing and left the computer. You are so fast Jessica! ;)

Can't wait to hear Phil how your Zombie dude recipe turns out!


Offline cherimoya_kid

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Re: Raw Alcoholic Beverages
« Reply #14 on: June 19, 2012, 12:05:17 pm »
I do have a batch of raw mead brewing. No idea how it will come out, though, as it's my first. Fingers crossed.

Keep us posted, I'd like to ferment my own honey/mead.

CitrusHigh

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Re: Raw Alcoholic Beverages
« Reply #15 on: June 19, 2012, 06:27:44 pm »
Well that would totally explain why unpasteurized beer has the same effect on me as any other alcohol. Which is to make me congested, feel cold and if I go too far, I start getting all the problems again that led me to eating this way.

I guess I just was not made for no alcohol, suits me just fine! Thanks Jessica and Dorothy for learnin' me some good!
_________

Phil, that is super weird, my honey can't help but ferment! If I add water, doesn't matter whether it's in the fridge or on the counter, it ferments. But I add a ton of water because I want the stuff to be really pourable for coffee, or more past tense because I don't use sweetener in my coffee anymore. Usually it would be a half pint glass mason jar. Would fill it about half way with water, then add a goodly amount of  honey. It would start fermenting almost immediately, with a whoosh every time I open the jar, and slowly and surely the smell of sweet alcohol would get stronger and stronger. Strange. The honey I buy comes from the co-op, in a glass mason jar, usually already crystalized and they get it from a local apiary here in MN. Incidentally it is the cheapest raw honey available and is right up there in flavor with the top brands, not anything like commercial honey. Wonder why yours won't do it?

« Last Edit: June 19, 2012, 08:59:03 pm by Thoth »

Offline Dorothy

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Re: Raw Alcoholic Beverages
« Reply #16 on: June 19, 2012, 10:48:02 pm »
Hate to tell you this Thoth, but coffee aint raw either.  l) :P -X

CitrusHigh

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Re: Raw Alcoholic Beverages
« Reply #17 on: June 20, 2012, 12:09:33 am »
Really? Do tell.

Offline Dorothy

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Re: Raw Alcoholic Beverages
« Reply #18 on: June 20, 2012, 12:34:01 am »
Really? Do tell.

The flavor for the coffee comes from roasting the beans.
Sorry.

Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: Raw Alcoholic Beverages
« Reply #19 on: June 21, 2012, 07:02:49 pm »
Phil, that is super weird, my honey can't help but ferment! If I add water, doesn't matter whether it's in the fridge or on the counter, it ferments. But I add a ton of water because I want the stuff to be really pourable for coffee, or more past tense because I don't use sweetener in my coffee anymore. Usually it would be a half pint glass mason jar.
I even tried even way more water than that--over a gallon. How long did it take for it to ferment substantially into alcohol?

Quote
Would fill it about half way with water, then add a goodly amount of  honey.
That's basically what I did at first, and the sources I found, including the local home brewer supply store person, suggested that one issue is it probably wasn't enough water for the amount of honey. However, I even bought a gadget to measure the solids/water ratio to get it right--which was indeed way more water--and still no fermenting success until I added yeast.

Quote
It would start fermenting almost immediately, with a whoosh every time I open the jar, and slowly and surely the smell of sweet alcohol would get stronger and stronger. Strange.
Strange indeed. I did not observe that in a half-water jar when I tried that, nor even any fermentation bubbling with all the proper mead brewing equipment except for the yeast, and that's the first I've heard of such rapid fermentation without adding yeast (which doesn't mean it can't be done, of course--maybe you got lucky and there was plenty of yeast in the air at the time that inoculated your honey--but it's apparently not commonly reported) and also the first I've heard of someone brewing in a fridge. Another guy tried brewing mead without adding yeast on Youtube, even leaving it partly exposed outdoors for a while to try to get some natural yeast, and had the same experience I did.

The brewery supply store person and every other source I found (except accounts of the Masai, where the mead/water mix was reportedly just put in a hide bag or bladder or some sort of container made from an animal and set near a warm fire) said to keep the mead sealed and use either a balloon or airlock (inexpensive) to do that while avoiding eventual cap failure or explosion and to add yeast. Once I added yeast, there was so much fermentation for quite a while that I think I would have had to air it out quite often to avoid lid failure or explosion.

Airlocks 101
Did your honey/water mixture bubble and develop bubbles on the surface and eventually become clear?

Quote
The honey I buy comes from the co-op, in a glass mason jar, usually already crystalized and they get it from a local apiary here in MN. Incidentally it is the cheapest raw honey available and is right up there in flavor with the top brands, not anything like commercial honey. Wonder why yours won't do it?
I don't tend to care that much for crystallized honeys myself after trying raw fermented and raw liquid wild forest honeys (and yes, liquid honey can be truly raw and crystallized honey can be heated), though I did try both partially crystallized unfermented raw honey and raw fermented honey in trying to make mead. Other people told me it wasn't at all surprising that my honey wouldn't ferment into alcohol the way I was doing it in a jar with about half water and I've never heard of someone using the method with success, so I don't know what to tell you. <shrug>
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

Offline jessica

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Re: Raw Alcoholic Beverages
« Reply #20 on: June 21, 2012, 10:30:20 pm »
phil where do you get your honey from?  have you tried various sources?

Offline Dorothy

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Re: Raw Alcoholic Beverages
« Reply #21 on: June 21, 2012, 11:26:38 pm »
Phil, I'm gathering that you tried making mead with your fermented honey?
Could you use another starter besides yeast you buy in the store? Maybe water kefir grains, kombucha (might taste different in kombucha), whey ... or something else?

One of the things I never understood was how mead could be made at all since honey is the premier anti-bug compound on the planet. Bacteria, fungi and yeast have a terrible time living around honey.... especially if it still has lots of pollen in it. That's why honey never goes bad. One of the best ways to kill kombucha is to try making it with honey. It makes sense to me that you would need a big shot of starter to overpower the anti-bacterial powers of honey. How does Really Raw get their honey to ferment? I never had honey ferment on me and I've had some around for 10 years!

Offline jessica

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Re: Raw Alcoholic Beverages
« Reply #22 on: June 22, 2012, 12:17:11 am »
my guess would be the exact opposite dorothy, that pollen is actually the cause of the fermentation, since it contains many enzymes and is very yeasty when warm, that is why i was wondering the source, whether or not its filtered and whether the bees have their honey harvested off of them before making their way into the hive. 

Offline Dorothy

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Re: Raw Alcoholic Beverages
« Reply #23 on: June 22, 2012, 01:00:28 am »
Oopsy - I meant to wrote propolis. Sowee.  -[

Your right though jessica - pollen would be a good source of yeasts.

Offline PaleoPhil

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Re: Raw Alcoholic Beverages
« Reply #24 on: June 22, 2012, 09:51:28 am »
phil where do you get your honey from?  have you tried various sources?
Many months ago I tested every raw honey sold in my local area, plus others I ordered (including most of the honeys recommended in this forum), for taste and health effects, seeking the world's best (even though I have a lower tolerance for carbs than most people in the world, and even after many failures with various highly-touted honeys, I had a gut feeling that I would find a honey I could tolerate and possibly even benefit from, which proved true, oddly enough), from my perspective, of course. I found Really Raw Fermented honey to be by far the best for both my tastes and health of all the honeys I tried--even better than highly touted dark honeycomb, which I did find to taste good, but didn't provide me with any noticeable health benefits. So when I decided to try making mead, it was a natural choice, though I had tried the unfermented version and a local raw crystallized honey before that. I thought that starting with a fermented honey might make it easier to ferment without adding yeast, but that was not the case.

Honey doesn't kill all microbiota, just the bad ones. Healthy yeasts and bacteria apparently thrive in raw honey, which is apparently one thing that makes it such a healing food. Heating honey apparently diminishes this and enables pathogenic bacteria to more easily grow in it, which is apparently why people warn against feeding infants honey--because all they know is heated honey (so sad  :'(  ). My experience is that the truth of the natural world tends to be pretty much the opposite of most common assumptions. One could probably fare pretty well by doing nearly the opposite of the common wisdom in just about everything, as long as one does it within a natural, raw Paleo context. Interestingly, even in this forum I've tended to find that the more adamant and dogmatic people are about something, the less likely it is to be true (though this doesn't always hold). Some of the most godawful foods I've tried were touted as ambrosia here. My experience tends to come pretty close to Tyler's and Lex Rooker's when it comes to taste, health effects, etc. (though I don't get super-nauseas or vomit when I eat cooked meats like Tyler reports, and I hope that fate doesn't await me in the future  :P ).

Using champagne yeast that the home brewer supply lady selected for me, which is the most common type of yeast used with mead, appears to be working, but time will tell. There are also true mead (honey) yeasts, which presumably would be best suited to honey. I haven't heard of anyone using dairy yeasts like kefir grains or kombucha tea yeasts in honey before. Seems like they would be better suited to what they are designed for. No way I'm putting whey in my priceless honey, sorry. I don't even like whey cheese (such as feta) very much.

It's fascinating how little is known about fermented honey and traditional mead around the modern world, despite their being some of the world's tastiest and healthiest foods. This is one reason why it's so important to try to preserve at least some of the traditional hunter-gatherer cultures. One doesn't have to like foreigners or foreign cultures to have a reason to preserve traditional knowledge via preserving traditional culture.

'Sowee.'

Are you callin' pigs, Dorothy?  ;) Even if not, I'm still lovin' it.  ;D
« Last Edit: June 22, 2012, 09:58:03 am by PaleoPhil »
>"When some one eats an Epi paleo Rx template and follows the rules of circadian biology they get plenty of starches when they are available three out of the four seasons." -Jack Kruse, MD
>"I recommend 20 percent of calories from carbs, depending on the size of the person" -Ron Rosedale, MD (in other words, NOT zero carbs) http://preview.tinyurl.com/6ogtan
>Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong. -Tim Steele
Beware of problems from chronic Very Low Carb

 

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