RAF: A Problematic Public Image?

[timmypatch]

I'm sure I'm going to get a lot of flack for making this post, especially since I'm pretty new here, but hell, I'm going to speak my mind: I don't think we raw meat eaters market ourselves well.  While I appreciate the open mindedness on this forum, and certainly don't want to slam anyone's views, I can't help but recoil at the apparent zealotry I frequently witness on these forums.  I understand everyone's enthusiasm with finally having found a diet that works so well and that seems so common sense in retrospect, but as someone (relatively) new to these ideas, I can attest that when people start peddling the views of gurus like Aajonus as if they are indisputable facts, I start getting a seriously cultish vibe.  This is not to say that those ideas are not worth serious consideration and thought, I just don't think that anyone can legitimately pretend, for example, that the whole raw detox is theory is true beyond a shadow of a doubt and that food poisoning is total BS.  Last I checked, Aajonus hasn't any specialized knowledge about the human body than the rest of us do not. 

My feeling is that there is enough to recommend this diet without reverting to the unsubstantiated theories of celebrity seeking gurus.  I know that its a natural inclination for movements to find leaders to attach themselves to, but honestly, as charismatic as figures like aajonus may be, they can also be pretty damn intimidating and generate a pretty strong nutcase response from people new to his ideas.  I mean seriously, this guy claims that he discovered his diet after being led to a dead carcass by a tribe of foxes (or something like that).  I can't help but worry that the odd mix of pseudoscience, cultism, and spiritualism that Aajonus has managed to market so successfully to his niche community of followers has been more of a liability than an asset to the public image of RAF.   My feeling is that if we want to attract attention to and build credibility for our views on nutrition, we would be better off sticking to the more substantiated, scientific side of the RAF debate, at least publicly.

I realize that this forum is basically a private group of like minded individuals, and I don't mean to suggest that we ought to completely mute our discussion of these sorts of ideas. I just think that its worth keeping in mind that at this point in time, information supporting the dietary views that we support are pretty scarce.  In most parts of the developed world, the sight of a person eating raw meat is more likely to give the impression of psychopathy than superior health.  Being one of the few public communities on the net, I think we would be wise to keep in mind the impression we inevitably have on the outside world, especially open minded individuals who are considering a RAF diet.

I hope I did not offend anybody.  I am indebted to this community for expanding my horizons nutritionally speaking, and the last thing I want to do is to step on the feet of those who have been so helpful me.  I just want to shed some light on the sorts of things that a newcomer to the idea of RAF finds potentially outputting (speaking from experience) so that others like me are not turned away from the great health advantages eating this way confers.

[TylerDurden]

First of all, any criticism of RAF should really go in the Hot Topics forum, where it belongs. I'll do that now, and then address your other points.


OK, first of all, most of us do NOT view everything Aajonus says as gospel, with several past posts on this forum criticising him and the Primal Diet. Many of us have had problems with some of his recommendations(such as problems with raw dairy and raw veggie-juice, in my own case). However, when some of what Aajonus says is corroborated by what many other RAFers are experiencing, then we are willing to give him the credit.

Re foxes:- It was coyotes, not foxes. Yes, I know it's a dodgy story, to put it mildly, but the fact is that most people aren't attracted to diet for logical reasons but either for emotional reasons(like with most things) or because they've tried every other diet to cure some extremely serious health-problem without success and the raw palaeolithic diet is the only one left - so, for example, Raw Vegans are often attracted to their diet because of concern for animals/the environment etc., low-carbers are attracted to their diets because of the nice feeling they get when they're slim etc. etc. So, appealing to logic only works for the minority of the population who are of a primarily rational, analytical type. Others tend to like a good story. And, besides, Aajonus lives in wacky California, so is merely adapting to the local environment, so to speak. I was a bit wary of him, at first, when I'd heard that he had something like 6 different past aliases, but it turns out that this is quite normal for those living in Los Angeles, as they often have different names for the different types of jobs they do, without anything unethical being involved - it's just a cultural thing.

As regards the notion that there's very little scientific data to support Raw Foodism, that's just not the case. Have a look at the child boards of the General Discussions forum(as few seem to do!) and you'll find numerous references to scientific studies proving the benefits of Raw-Food diets, and those are just a fraction of the total number of studies focusing on the toxins in cooked-foods. IMO, cooking has been around for a couple of hundred thousand years, so it's going to be kind of difficult to convince people to turn to raw animal food diets, given the social phobias involved re bacteria/parasites. The thing that ultimately convinces people to turn to RAF diets is when they see just how unhealthy people on SAD-diets are.

Lastly, one shouldn't be too concerned re the social aspect. For one thing, if you're confident about something and treat it as perfectly normal, people are more willing to accept it, whereas if you're nervous and hide the diet, they will sense that nervousness and not feel so comfortable about it.

Re Detox:- I agree that not every negative symptom can be "detox" but, quite frankly, all gurus use this sort of  detox-claim, not just Aajonus. My own definition of a detox is something that is usually mild(not always), and is generally short-term in effect most of the time, never lasting more than 2-3 weeks, with one feeling better after the detox than before, and if the detoxes become less frequent, less severe and shorter in duration than previous times until they stop once you're generally healthy. If a "detox" goes on forever and gets steadily worse, then it's not a genuine detox. That said, one can still get minor detoxes, later on after health is recovered, if one eats any  cooked-foods as the body then gets rid of the toxins from that food in unpleasant ways(diarrhea etc.)

Re Food-Posioning:- A lot of scares have been created around raw foods, but, quite frankly, the worst cases of food-poisoning come from the consumption of cooked-animal foods which have been stored for long periods of time(eg:- canned foods). The trouble with cooking is that it kills off the good bacteria within the meats, thus creating a vacancy for bad bacteria to get in - at least that's the theory. At any rate, Aajonus does have a point when he criticises the statistics and data used to justify government crackdowns re food-poisoning. More important than the above, though, is the fact that we RAFers have been eating raw animal foods for years, without incurring the kind of  problems with bacteria/parasites that promoters of  balanced diets/SAD diets try to claim. I mean, we are constantly bombarded with articles in the media claiming that eating a raw-meat-diet will lead to death over a period of a few weeks etc.,  or told that humans cannot survive for long on a diet of raw foods, even if they include raw animal foods(a ludicrous, but frequent claim!), so, by comparison to such exaggerated claims by the mainstream, we're actually not as extreme or as fanatical.

[JaX]

I second what TylerDurden said. Really spot-on, detailed response. Nice one TD

[Raw Kyle]

I suspect the TS hasn't read much of this forum because I have yet to find one post supporting AV dogma against logic or rational reason. Most people on this forum don't even follow an AV diet and a sizable group are former AV followers who have (respectfully, unlike AV skeptics) moved on to RPD from his Primal Diet.

Also I would argue that perhaps AV does have a "special knowledge" of the human body over what the average person does since he's done decades of research and dietary advice to people, curing hundreds or maybe more of cancer etc. I'd certainly like to hear of any others with this experience.

[timmypatch]

I know that there is a lot of science to back up this diet.  That is why I eat this way!  Moreover, I totally agree that what comes out of conventional dietary literature can be pretty damn wacky sometimes. Further, I recognize the emotional element of diet for a lot of people, and I can understand the natural tendency to cling to figures like Aajonus.  I guess I just worry that for a lot of people, like me, Aajonus is strongly ofputting.  I feel like he turns a diet with a whole lot of scientific merit into some sort of a cult or a religion.  While this may be emotionally comforting to some who are willing to accept his dogma, for those who are not (which I tend to think represents the majority of people in the world), we take one look at the sorts of things he is saying and run the other way.  Like I mentioned in my previous post, I discovered this way of eating not on account of somebody like Aajonus, but rather because of people like the members of this forum who have taken strives to make the scientific literature more available.  

Understandably, a great number of people on this forum accept a lot of what he says, whether straight out or in some sort of a modified way.  After all, in adopting this style of eating, many of us have had to sever all sorts of emotional attachment comfort foods and emotionally related dietary practices that we have grown up with.   As far as I see it, Aajonus is really the first person who has come along to fill that void in a compelling, and understandably has made an impression on many for that reason.  I recognize that many of you have taken a toned down sort of approach to his "primal diet", in so far as you have made modifications based on personal experience, which suggests you are not the sort to blindly buy into some one elses dogma.  But even so, the so many of the basic opinions and views put forth on this forum seem to stem, either directly or indirectly, from the, shall I say, fanaticism of guru's like Aajonus.  Many of the people on this forum have come from other diets with there own sets of gurus making claims of healing all sorts of degenerative diseases and basically offering the fountain of youth (for only 5 easy payments of 99.99).  Is it really so difficult to see the similarities between those gurus you have formerly rejected and those you now basically subscribe to (with modifications).  It is important to recognize that people new to these ways of thinking see people like Aajonus as being equally wonky as people like david wolf with his kirlian images.  

Lets talk the whole notion of detox for example.  Has detox ever been seriously validated in scientific literature.  Not that I'm aware of, except maybe in a more or less round about way.  But more specifically, has science ever validated a mechanism for detox even remotely similar to the sort described by Aajonus.  Again, not that I'm aware of.  Like Tyler mentioned, almost all "fringe" diets involve some sort of a detox mechanism.  Deep down, I think that the whole detox philosophy touches on some really deep seeded human emotions and feelings that help to explain why people go looking for out of the ordinary diets in the first place.  As I see it, people frequently cling to the idea of detox because they have some deep seeded disdain for either themselves or for the rest of society, and they want to somehow purify themselves emotionally and so use food (or lack of food in the case of natural hygienists) as a proxy.  Alternatively, detoxers may just want to feel like the they are substantively different and better than the rest of society, and so think that by making there bodies cleaner, they are somehow becoming better people (almost like going to catholic confession).  In any event, what I am really suggesting is that perhaps this idea of detox is something that operates on a higher plane than science.  

You mentioned your critical views on much of what Aajonus has said in cases where the things he has said have been blatantly misguided.  This I know to be true.  I may be new to posting, but I am a long time lurker of these boards and am very well aware of the general tone of things.  However, what I see that concerns me is how he tends to be given the benefit of the doubt.  It is like he is the basis off of which everything is judged.  When something that he says doesn't work, or is just completely off base, it is considered as questionable (i.e. dairy, massive quantities of raw honey, juiced veggies).  But when something he has suggested does seem to make some sense, it is accepted without question that not only is the dietary reccomendation spot on, but that all of the psuedoscientiic/fanatical theory that he has built around it must also be true.

For example, to go back to the example of detox vs. food poisoning.  I fully agree that conventional wisdom on food poisoning is absurd.  However, this does not prove Aajonus theories on detox to be true.  My sense is that people on this diet do get mild food poisoning from time to time, especially early on, and pass this off as "detox".  Now, I'm open to the idea that bacteria has a lot of positives.  I'm even open to the idea that when we get sick, the body may in some fundamental way be reparing itself or undergoing an improvement for the better.  But their is this strong distinction drawn between food poisoning and detox that is just not born out by the scientific evidence as far as I'm concerned.  Aajonus claims that when we feel gross after eating raw food, its because we are undergoing a quasi-magical detox of heavy metals and other mysterious toxins due to finally eating the nutrients our bodies have been deprived of, and so activating internal mechanisms for cleansing.  This theory sounds great and all, but really??  I mean, really??  as far as I'm concerned, these magical nutrients that allow our bodies to understand its time to clean up have never been identified.  I'm sure I haven't gone into enough detail explaining the mechanisms of an Aajonus type of a detox, but I just fail to think it makes a lot of sense to support his medical views word for word just because they are corroborated on a superficial level by experience.  

Let me just make one final example.  Suppose I were to claim that plants grow because they desire to re-unite with their mother, the sun.  I could probably even build a small religion around this idea if I were more imaginative.  Some people who are, for whatever reason, open to suggestion on the subject of tree growth and with little background in science may very come along and, seeing that plants do, indeed, grow when exposed sunlight, hail my views as correct beyond a shadow of a doubt and take me as their leader.  However, most people will hear what I am saying, call me a crackpot, and go looking for someone else to listen to and take ideas from.  When I start hearing blatantly aajonusesque views being touted around as if they were fact, I can't help but worry that this is what is going on.  I think we have such a good thing going here, and I don't like to think that we are turning others away with the sort of psuedo-religious undertones that have lead so many to reject other fringe dietary regimes.  So long as we cling publicly to these views, I fear that it will be impossible for the raw paleo paradigm to ever go very mainstream (or if it does, that it will be in spite of us, not because of us).  

Again, no offense intended.  I know this is a sensitive subject, and even you all disagree with me, I hope you can see where I'm coming from here.

[timmypatch]

Raw Kyle,

When you say that Aajonus has specialized knowledge on account of his years of research and on account of curing hundreds of people of cancer, I worry that you are doing precisely what you just claimed you do not do: buying into Aajonus' hype and essentially "supporting AV dogma against logic or rational reason."  Based on my own research, Aajonus has always refused when pressed for evidence of his miraculous claims to having cured cancer in hundreds to provide any substantiated evidence for reasons of confidentiality.  Thus, when you say he has cured cancer in hundreds and done all sorts of cutting edge research, you are taking him on his word alone.  Moreover, even if there are people willing to testify to how much better they feel after adopting his way of living and eating, the same is true with the loyal followers of frutarian and raw vegan gurus who have likewise shown themselves to very willing to uphold the miraculous claims of their gurus as well.  So we seem to have a double standard going here, we are unwilling to accept the anecdotal evidence of raw vegan gurus, but happy to accept it when it supports AV.

[Raw Kyle]

Why not give someone the benefit of the doubt who cures people of cancer? You'd rather just attack people who make claims not mainstream to be safe? Everyone on this board is discussing what they have experienced and believe to be true, I'm really surprised that someone is suggesting this board is dogmatic. Have you ever read other diet boards? I wouldn't be the least insulted if you were suggesting this at one of the raw vegan boards I've read, or maybe some hardcore AV board, but I have no idea where you're coming from. Maybe you could quote one thread or even one post that blindly supports AV or other dogma? Many of these people are scientists, I'm a biologist by training and don't see anything suspect or anti-science going on here.

[timmypatch]

Why not give someone the benefit of the doubt who cures people of cancer? You'd rather just attack people who make claims not mainstream to be safe? Everyone on this board is discussing what they have experienced and believe to be true, I'm really surprised that someone is suggesting this board is dogmatic. Have you ever read other diet boards? I wouldn't be the least insulted if you were suggesting this at one of the raw vegan boards I've read, or maybe some hardcore AV board, but I have no idea where you're coming from. Maybe you could quote one thread or even one post that blindly supports AV or other dogma? Many of these people are scientists, I'm a biologist by training and don't see anything suspect or anti-science going on here.

Raw Kyle, I don't mean to be offensive.  I'm sorry if I've managed to insult you.  I'm just trying to be as honest as possible about how I feel.

If I were against everything non-mainstream, I would not be eating raw paleo, and I would not be posting on these message boards.  Futher, I recognize that this fourm is very much non-dogmatic compared with a lot of other online message boards I have seen in the past.  I just see small elements of this dogmatism working its way into the discussion from time to time, and frankly it bothers me just a little.  And for the record, I don't give Aajonus the benefit of the doubt for the same reason I don't give the street preacher who claims to be the next coming of christ the benefit of the doubt, I have no strong evidence that any of his claims are true.

Also, I'd rather not go through these forums and give examples because I would innevitably end up singling people, hurting feelings, and pissing people off.

[Nicola]

Timmypatch, woooo, good post - "detox" has always been my  :' . I look at the goats, sheep and other animals (I do go out every day) and ask my self if they count bowl movements, do liver, colon and other clean outs or eat "special" items for this and that reason. I bet they don't plan to change their diet because of Christmas .

Nicola

[Raw Kyle]

Street preachers don't help people, they just talk.

I disagree with AV's recommendations towards consuming large amounts of raw dairy and green juice, but the fact is he has helped many clients cure cancer, heart disease, just about every disease out there. What does a guy have to do to get a benefit of the doubt? He is by far the best raw diet guru out there because he actually treats real clients and doesn't just write tons of books and endorse supplements. That's another big reason I think he's an alright guy, doesn't endorse supplements. That is the easiest way for raw diet gurus to make money, and they all do it except for him.

[goodsamaritan]

I'm sure I'm going to get a lot of flack for making this post, especially since I'm pretty new here, but hell, I'm going to speak my mind: I don't think we raw meat eaters market ourselves well.

Speaking your mind is good.  Thanks for giving your newbie perspective.  Let's work on how to correct mis-perceptions.

Marketing wise,  I don't think people here are deliberately marketing ourselves.  This is not a for profit website marketing any product or service.

Of course I would like to stress that Raw Paleolithic Diet is not just about raw meat.  Many of us eat fruits and vegs too.

  While I appreciate the open mindedness on this forum, and certainly don't want to slam anyone's views, I can't help but recoil at the apparent zealotry I frequently witness on these forums.

I have not seen the zealotry you speak off.  In fact the reason I was attracted to the raw paleo forum was the absence of zealotry and the quality of the open mindedness of raw paleo practitioners as we get to exchange ideas and learn from one another.

  I understand everyone's enthusiasm with finally having found a diet that works so well and that seems so common sense in retrospect,

I've been through raw vegan, raw fruitarian, wai diet, homo optimus diet, tried the dairy of primal diet, it seems RPD is the one that works and is delicious, comfortable, easy... comes in naturally.

but as someone (relatively) new to these ideas, I can attest that when people start peddling the views of gurus like Aajonus as if they are indisputable facts, I start getting a seriously cultish vibe.

I think you are just railing against Aajonus' books and writings. 

I have observed the complete opposite of your observation.  I have observed that the raw paleo forum people are always analytical and respectfully critical of Aajonus' work.  Many of us have reported unsuccessful attempts at consuming raw dairy and raw juiced greens.  Seems there are only a small percentage of people who respond well to raw dairy.

I have observed that raw paleo forum practitioners are open minded self-experimentors and just report matter of factly what works for them and what does not work for them.

  This is not to say that those ideas are not worth serious consideration and thought, I just don't think that anyone can legitimately pretend, for example, that the whole raw detox is theory is true beyond a shadow of a doubt and that food poisoning is total BS.  Last I checked, Aajonus hasn't any specialized knowledge about the human body than the rest of us do not. 

I'm the family healer.  Not as experienced as Aajonus.  My story and website is on my signature.  Detoxing is very important for toxic people.

Raw detoxing due to diet is true in my opinion.  But I do not like guessing if the person is experiencing detox or not.  I was lucky to have done direct detox measures prior to switching to raw diets.  This is why I experienced no discomforts when I began with raw vegan.  See my detox protocols, i believe it is faster and more comfortable than the gradual let-raw-food-detox-you approach.  But of course others will disagree.  http://www.curemanual.com/detox-protocols

My feeling is that there is enough to recommend this diet without reverting to the unsubstantiated theories of celebrity seeking gurus. 

I do not see Aajonus being celebrated as the guru of Raw Paleo Diet.  He is mentioned because his books are the first ones popularized.  And some people respond well to raw dairy.

I myself was looking for something better than raw vegan and raw fruitarian.  I first stumbled onto Wai Diet made by Wai Genriiu.  Wai Diet is already raw Paleo but limited its animal food consumption to all ocean creatures and egg yolks -- excluded raw land animals.  Lots of research with Wai Diet.  Wai is quiet.  Other practitioners are running their forum.  They focus on curing acne.  And they do indeed cure acne.

I was getting bored with Wai Diet and wanted more variety so I stumbled onto Aajonus' primal diet.  What made me interested in Aajonus was he was also a healer, just like my previous teachers who I learned some healing concepts from: Dr. Tam Mateo (vegan), Barefoot Herbalist MH (fruitarian).

Aajonus' teachings have merit from my point of view.  In my natural hygiene readings, Aajonus' methods are very much consistent.  Aajonus' recommendations should be seen that there are specifics for really sick an dying people. 

Some of us here are in the coasting stage... building up stage... trying to be more handsome stage so the diet at this stage is different.

My point of view as a fellow altruistic healer is that Aajonus teachings work.  Work with a healing practitioner.  Healing is not just diet if one is sick.

The raw paleo forum is not reverting to Aajonus or any celebrity guru.  I never had that impression

I was attracted to the yahoogroups and this forum when I read the teachings of Geoff Purcell.

I know that its a natural inclination for movements to find leaders to attach themselves to, but honestly, as charismatic as figures like aajonus may be, they can also be pretty damn intimidating and generate a pretty strong nutcase response from people new to his ideas.

As I mentioned, this raw paleo diet forum, yahoo groups and website does not revere aajonus... he is just mentioned. 

It seems raw paleo diet makes us think and act as clear thinking, logical, egalitarian humans.  We just share and share alike.

  I mean seriously, this guy claims that he discovered his diet after being led to a dead carcass by a tribe of foxes (or something like that). 

Humans are routinely rescued by wild dolphins.  I'll give Aajonus the benefit of the doubt.  Even if it were just in his dreams... it doesn't matter.  What matters is he teaches useful things.  His teachings are logical and they work in the hands of people who can see.  I'm lucky I'm a hobby healer... his teachings are useful... more tools for me.

I teach people how to cure "the incurables."

I have eczema and psoriasis cure protocols... when I initially reported my joy and shared my knowledge... the forum administrators at skincell.org screamed at me and shut me out and called me a fraud and they deleted everything I posted on their forum.  So I made my own website so everyone will know www.eczemacure.info
 
This led me to learning about cures for cancer, diabetes, dengue fever, pneumonia, gout, etc... they are all cureable... and some people call me nuts... and some people send me emails and just say thank you.

I say most people are narrow minded television addicts.

I can't help but worry that the odd mix of pseudoscience, cultism, and spiritualism that Aajonus has managed to market so successfully to his niche community of followers has been more of a liability than an asset to the public image of RAF.

I do not see Aajonus' work as pseudoscience, cultism or spiritualism.  I've been through other teachers and healers and Aajonus' work just shows experience... hands on. 

Aajonus is not about RAF.  Aajonus is about healing, what in his experience works, he also uses vegetables and fruit. 

Other healers or practitioners have to adjust according to what works for your patient.

   My feeling is that if we want to attract attention to and build credibility for our views on nutrition, we would be better off sticking to the more substantiated, scientific side of the RAF debate, at least publicly.

As mentioned, many scientific studies and personal practitioners are just reporting their results.  I do not see why you are so focused on Aajonus when there is Weston Price, Wai Genriiu, Francis Pottenger, Vinny Pinto, Geoff Purcell, natural hygiene teachers and many scattered videos of practitioners in the internet.  Maybe you just need to be pointed specifically to the URLs of the other teachings?  I got a couple of videos on my recommended diet page at http://www.curemanual.com/diet-strategies and Aajonus is not on that page.

I realize that this forum is basically a private group of like minded individuals, and I don't mean to suggest that we ought to completely mute our discussion of these sorts of ideas. I just think that its worth keeping in mind that at this point in time, information supporting the dietary views that we support are pretty scarce.

Truth is not a popularity contest or gets to be voted upon.  Truth is just what works.  I believe this forum is all of us altruistically putting our heads together to provide information for each other.  Also to give those poor unfortunate raw vegans who have crumbling health... just like many of us who came from raw vegan... the only natural transition was to add raw animal food and ta dah... you have RPD.

Vegetarianism is more far fetched - there is no historical human tribe that is vegan.

  In most parts of the developed world, the sight of a person eating raw meat is more likely to give the impression of psychopathy than superior health. 

Good thing I live in a 3rd world country where eating raw eggs and raw ocean fish and raw ocean shellfish is NORMAL.  But I've been to france and italy and they eat raw beef with nice sounding names.

Japanese restaurants in our city charge exorbitant prices for sashimi. 10x the price in the wet market.

Being one of the few public communities on the net, I think we would be wise to keep in mind the impression we inevitably have on the outside world, especially open minded individuals who are considering a RAF diet.

It's good you brought this up.  Thank you.  I can see a lot of mis-conceptions.  And yes you are entitled to this mis-conception.  Maybe we need to arrange the NEWBIE section so that it is more prominent so as to avoid future newbie mis-conceptions.

Keep it up.  Your comments will help make the websites better.

I hope I did not offend anybody.  I am indebted to this community for expanding my horizons nutritionally speaking, and the last thing I want to do is to step on the feet of those who have been so helpful me.  I just want to shed some light on the sorts of things that a newcomer to the idea of RAF finds potentially outputting (speaking from experience) so that others like me are not turned away from the great health advantages eating this way confers.

No offense taken.  We learn from each other.

[timmypatch]

goodsamaritan, thank you for reading my comment with an open mind and for sharing your thoughts about my loaded topic without becoming aggressively defensive.  I really do appreciate your input.  I do however think that some of my points are worth a little clarification in light of your response.

First, I'm well aware that nobody stands to gain financially from this website.  If I thought this were not the case, you can trust me that wouldn't be posting here.  When I talk about poor marketing and a problematic public image, I am referring to our effectiveness in getting out the message about the raw paleo style of eating to the outside world.

Second, I have perhaps overstated the influence that Aajonus wields on these forums.  I recognize that Aajonus is but one of a number of authority figures that people following the paleo diet look to for guidance.  I suppose I probably have a particularly strong bias against him because his stories can just be SO over the top, and I get this strange vibe every time I learn more about him that he is merely trying to play up some sort of a celebrity role (he in fact used to be a minor television soap star, so his biography plays perfectly into the "washed up celebrity looking to resurrect his career" stereotype).  I guess it doesn't help that he charges exorbitant consultation fees.  Granted, I know that he probably is trying making his living doing what he is doing, but still can't help but be suspicious when there is a profit motive involved.  He may not be selling supplements, but that doesn't mean he's not looking to turn a hefty profit.   In fact, I think one could make a very strong argument that he has cornered a niche market of loyal customers who are willing to pay him premium consultation fees on account of the fact that he is not selling supplements.  In other words, one could make the argument that not selling supplements is little more than a savvy marketing decision.

Of course there are other authority figures too.  You have pointed out Weston Price, Wai Genriiu, Francis Pottenger, Vinny Pinto, Geoff Purcell.  I've heard all of these names before, and have at least a passing familiarity with what each of these individuals/organizations stand for.  Some, I in my opinion, are more credible than others.  The ones that I tend to have the most trouble with, however, are the ones that lack any legitimate credentials, and the ones that inject their witting and speech with an element of dogmatism and which seem to lack a healthy faculty for self doubt.  Aajonus is guilty on both counts because he has no credentials and speaks as if he knows better than the rest of the world.  The WP organization speaks with what I feel is an overly assertive voice.  They come across as closed to the possibility that there are valid competing views to those that they hold.  Nevertheless, at least their organization is lead by medical professionals and their views are based upon legit. and verifiable population studies.  Vinny Pinto is sort of the opposite of Weston Price.  Although he comes across as a far more open minded and reasonable personality, he lacks any serious credentials.  VP reminds me of a curious child who does wonky science experiments in his basement.  He is charming and all, just not particularly credible.

I think Raw Kyle's defensiveness on behalf of Aajonus speaks volumes about the influence he wields over many individuals on this forum.  I know that the raw food movement, especially the RAF movement, is in its infancy, and that we have few sources of authority to look to for guidance, but I think that we would be well served to steer clear of associating ourselves too strongly with some of the less credible/more fanatical icons, because those guys honestly turn me, and I assume people like me, away.  Besides, why look to people like AV for advice when we have great guys like Geoff Purcell who can speak directly to us from personal experience with absolutely no pretense to self interest in addition to a growing body of actual, published scientific data to back up our views?

[goodsamaritan]

I think Raw Kyle's defensiveness on behalf of Aajonus speaks volumes about the influence he wields over many individuals on this forum.

I've re-read Raw Kyle's replies on this thread regarding his point of view about Aajonus and he was not defensive.  Raw Kyle made it clear that Aajonus wields no influence over him.  Raw Kyle recognizes Aajonus for his healing work and it does work for many people.

I myself review Aajonus' teachings when it comes to healing people.  Healing diets are different than the current I'd like to be more handsome and more muscular diet I'm currently doing. 

You could say in matters of healing, I combine and cherry pick teachings of Hulda Clark, Barefoot Herbalist MH and Aajonus Vonderplanitz.  I've tried Aajonus' recipe for raw liver pate... just add a red onion and put in blender.  Good stuff.  It's okay to question those 3 healers.  Somehow I understand where they are all coming from.  Don't dismiss any of them, let's not miss out on their teachings.

[timmypatch]

Does raw kyle, or anybody on this forum for that matter, actually know personally somebody who has been miraculously cured by Aajonus? 

"recognizing" Jesus Christ for his "healing works" makes a person a faithful of christian dogma because it means he believes the word of the bible in spite of the fact that he has no first person evidence to back it up.  So, when Raw Kyle recognizes Aajonus for his "healing works" without having any first hand evidence of these "healing works" (if I'm wrong about this, please clarify Raw Kyle), that makes him a faithful of the Dogma of AV as far as I'm concerned.  Some people believe only some parts of the bible, but we still call them Christians.  Raw Kyle may not beleive everything that Aajonus says, but I would content that his decision to believe in AV's miracles on an article of faith is damning evidence that AV exerts an influence (however weak) over him.

goodsamaritan, you mentioned that we shouldn't miss out on the teachings of any of these gurus. You suggest that we take something away from what each of these raw icons have to say.  I guess this is one way of dealing with the reality that all of these guru's phrase their teachings in such a way as to preclude all other dietary philosophies (If one truly believes in what Aajonus has to say, he cannot also believe in philosophies of the wei diet for example).  Most of these figures are promoting "comprehensive doctrines" that don't allow for alternative viewpoints.  In other words, by "cherry-picking", you are effectively bleaching out the elements of fanaticism in many of these dietary dogmas.  My feeling is this, why not bleach reference to these figures out of our discussion altogether, since even making reference to them creates the appearance of fealty to these individuals and their empires of fanaticism?  I'm not sugesting we wholsale reject all of their ideas, just that we be careful not to sound too much like we are blindly following profiteering gurus with no background in science.  When I see threads gushing about an Aajonus meet up, I can't help but worry about the impression we are giving off.

[goodsamaritan]

Does raw kyle, or anybody on this forum for that matter, actually know personally somebody who has been miraculously cured by Aajonus? 

Since I live far away, I don't know Aajonus' circle.  But my own personal experience was when I read Aajonus said raw land animals were safe to eat and since I was getting bored with Wai Diet, Aajonus helped convince me that eating raw land animals was a good idea.  I felt even better than just wai diet.

"recognizing" Jesus Christ for his "healing works" makes a person a faithful of christian dogma because it means he believes the word of the bible in spite of the fact that he has no first person evidence to back it up.  So, when Raw Kyle recognizes Aajonus for his "healing works" without having any first hand evidence of these "healing works" (if I'm wrong about this, please clarify Raw Kyle), that makes him a faithful of the Dogma of AV as far as I'm concerned.

It does not work that way.  Wrong analogy.  The way I see it is I can re-create Aajonus' teachings and apply it to my patients who may be sick.  This means Aajonus is teaching healing principles.  He teaches us to be independent of him.  I thank Aajonus for his principles, his explanations of how things go, and I am able to heal people, as well as make myself healthier.

  Some people believe only some parts of the bible, but we still call them Christians.  Raw Kyle may not beleive everything that Aajonus says, but I would content that his decision to believe in AV's miracles on an article of faith is damning evidence that AV exerts an influence (however weak) over him.

Gosh, you so mis-interpret Raw Kyle.  We read the same post of Raw Kyle, yet you mis-interpret what he said.  I have re-read all of Raw Kyle's posts and it is clear AV has no "influence" over him.

Just as AV has no "influence" over me.

Most RPDers are so non-dogmatic.

You must check your mis-perception.

goodsamaritan, you mentioned that we shouldn't miss out on the teachings of any of these gurus. You suggest that we take something away from what each of these raw icons have to say.  I guess this is one way of dealing with the reality that all of these guru's phrase their teachings in such a way as to preclude all other dietary philosophies (If one truly believes in what Aajonus has to say, he cannot also believe in philosophies of the wei diet for example).

That is your conclusion.  Which I do not agree with.  We are our own best doctors.  We can get ideas from several different people and make it our own.  For example I get to make www.eczemacure.info and I get to make www.curemanual.com

I'm cool with all those healers.

Most of these figures are promoting "comprehensive doctrines" that don't allow for alternative viewpoints.  In other words, by "cherry-picking", you are effectively bleaching out the elements of fanaticism in many of these dietary dogmas. 

It does not work that way.  When you are curing people of diseases hands on.  You do what works.  It is best to have a wide array of tools and see what applies to the situation at hand.

My feeling is this, why not bleach reference to these figures out of our discussion altogether, since even making reference to them creates the appearance of fealty to these individuals and their empires of fanaticism? 

No one is fanatic in the RPD forum.  We're just happy to find things working for us and hope others are helped too.

I'm not sugesting we wholsale reject all of their ideas, just that we be careful not to sound too much like we are blindly following profiteering gurus with no background in science.  When I see threads gushing about an Aajonus meet up, I can't help but worry about the impression we are giving off.

Aajonus currently has enough fans so he can organize pot lucks and people can socialize.  Maybe in the future, other RPDers will be popular too.

The problem I see here is you have so much blind rage against AV it colors your perception of things.  Let it go.  You will feel better.  I also read someone post here that Hulda Clark was a nut case.  That's okay.  Live and let live.

[timmypatch]

to quote Aajonus from an interview when asked why he had not yet tried to attract mainstream attention for his movement: "There’s no money to finance a study...since 25 per-cent of our GDP is generated by the pharmaceutical industry, our economy would collapse. We’d be in a depression. That’s everything you need to know."  Clearly Aajonus himself has low expectations that the RAF way of eating will ever become widely popular. In fact, I almost feel like Aajonus would rather RAF not become mainstream since that would mean he would probably loose his captive audience as legitimate research would displace his unsubstantiated dogma, and as the subset of people who flock to him in order to feel non-mainstream desert him.    I guess I am just more optimistic in believing that RAF could one day have mainstream appeal.

That said, I harbor no feelings of resentment toward AV.  I simply feel that he is a fraud and worry that when we begin to give him idol treatment, paying heed his superficially logical explanations for bodily phenomena that he has probably just made up, we undermine our credibility when it comes to more legitimate research backing up the raw paleo diet.  My concern regarding AV extends more broadly to a number of other guru-status individuals in all number of realms in the health community.  I only single out Aajonus for the particular esteem he seems to enjoy among this community, which, on the whole, seems far less susceptible to fanaticism than most health oriented communities online these days.  Of course obviously I'm generalizing quit a bit.  Everyone on this board has their own unique opinions and views.

I'm probably fighting a loosing battle.  I'm afraid I'm playing the role of the new guy who comes in and rains on everyone's parade.  I just think its such a shame that so many people consign RAF to the realm of crackpot dietary wisdom when there is so much strong, hard scientific evidence to recommend it.  As long as people like Aajonus are closely associated with the movement, I can't see it breaking free of its crackpot status. 

I have made the point that I had wanted to make, and have probably riled enough feathers in the process to earn myself permanent pariah status on this forum.  That said, I am hereby divorcing myself of all ties to this argument.  I fear that if I continue to press any further I'm likely to either start a flame war or suffer an brain anurism out of sheer frustration.  I sincerely hope that my message has made at least some small impression on this wonderful community of smart, open minded and curious individuals.

[goodsamaritan]

to quote Aajonus from an interview when asked why he had not yet tried to attract mainstream attention for his movement: "There’s no money to finance a study...

Aajonus is right on the money with this opinion.

Same thing Loren Howe says in this video which is available in my Cure Manual website:  There is no money for studies on cheap truth.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BVn-jmCi4zI

Short Discussion from Loren Howe on the effectivity of the Raw Paleolithic Diet in reversing diseases. Also promotes the WAI Diet.
Loren How reads a PALEO DIET STUDY made by a French Doctor who funded his own study.
Listen to the success rate.  Of course it is fantastic.  And that is cures through diet alone.
But cures are diet + many other things.

I have made the point that I had wanted to make, and have probably riled enough feathers in the process to earn myself permanent pariah status on this forum.  That said, I am hereby divorcing myself of all ties to this argument.  I fear that if I continue to press any further I'm likely to either start a flame war or suffer an brain anurism out of sheer frustration.  I sincerely hope that my message has made at least some small impression on this wonderful community of smart, open minded and curious individuals.

I don't think you ruffled anyone's feathers just because you don't like AV.  What is odd is you don't like AV and you take it on Raw Kyle who you mis-interpret. 

Now you think you are starting a flame war when there is absolutely none.  Ummm... the flame war is just in your mind.  Maybe you need to relax and have a cool lemonade?  In my experience it was the liver flushing that did me good.  Have a smiley 

[TylerDurden]

Well, Aajonus could easily make far more money if he, like other gurus, recommended cooked-foods  or sold supplements, so I think he can claim some integrity for that. Yes, he has a niche audience but it's pretty small by comparison to Atkins or Sally Fallon, too small to make the kind of money Sally Fallon earns.

As regards his claims, the fact that there are any adherents at all of his raw diet, given all the social phobias about raw meats,  at all should indicate that it's pretty successful. I live in the UK so don't have the opportunity to meet many RAFers(just 2 or 3), but I've  come across enough personal posts by Primal-Dieters/RAFers who state that they got rid of the symptoms of Grave's disease/cancer or recovered their fertility etc. etc., to realise that there's something to it. Also, the primary reason why people are so keen on this diet is simply because they've usually tried and failed previously with every other possible method, whether conventional or alternative, only to finally find that the RAF diet worked.

I agree that there are also plenty of people who've  had problems with the Primal Diet(re dairy or veggie-juice etc.), and plenty of Primal Dieters believe that their food-intolerances etc. are merely "detox" and suffer for it, but most RAFers find that modifying AV's diet(re adding raw organ-meats/removing dairy etc.) does the trick.  I don't claim that even this diet is 100% effective, though - after all, some people may seriously damage their organs beyond repair via junk-food diets or accidents, in which case conventional treatments such as organ-transplant are a better solution.

Re AV/heavy-metals-detox:- I'm personally heavily sceptical of AV's take on heavy metals. When I listened to his tapes, in his consultations he would, most of the time, cite heavy-metals as being the supposed "cause" of the consultees' health-problems - this seems highly unlikely, and much of the heavy-metals-issue has been disproven such as the mercury-in-fish hype.On the other hand, I do believe in detox in general given my own personal experience and that of many others. It's just that one has to use one's personal intuition/experience to tell the difference between a genuine detox and something worse.

As regards detox,all animals would have to have some form of detoxing mechanism as, otherwise, they would be gradually affected by the accumulation of minimal toxins in the body taken up by consuming the occasional mildly toxic plant or animal.

Re gurus:- There is no real Rawpaleodiet guru. RPDers in general
 borrow from Aajonus Vonderplanitz, Weston-Price, Mercola,Vinny Pinto, as well as from cooked-diet gurus like Ray Peat, Loren Cordain Ray Audette, Sally Fallon etc. and then they correlate the opinions of those gurus with their own experiences re diet and discard those gurus' opinions which don't work.   Each of the gurus may only have a tiny fraction of useful info on diet, and some may  be correct but not relevant to a particular individual or group, but, taken together, one can make a balanced viewpoint of it all.

Re mainstream views:- I do agree that we need to fit in with mainstream views, which is what the childboards of the General Discussions forum  are all about. That won't convince most die-hard SAD-eaters, though. I know, for a fact, that if I'd been moderately healthy for my age, that no amount of hard scientific data proving the raw diet would ever have convinced me to switch to raw animal foods - it was only serious ill-health and the lack of effectiveness of other diets that forced me to do so, after which I found the RAF diet surprisingly useful. Judging from the fact that more and more people I know are suffering from various health-issues and the fact that there's been an ever-increasing trend in the last century towards increasing the processing of foods, unprocessed diets like ours will become increasingly attractive, by default.

Lastly, I do agree that Aajonus can be a deterrent. At one point, I almost left the diet because of Aajonus' insistent claims that it was impossible to be truly allergic to raw dairy and that all one had to do was drink it at room-temperature  or whatever. If I'd quit then, I'd be dead by now, so it's just as well that I decided to read all the raw diet
group-archives and follow the advice given by individual Primal Dieters, instead, and recover accordingly. At the same time, if I'd never heard of Aajonus, I would never have come across this diet, so I'm grateful to him for that, at least.

[JaX]

timmypatch you sound like an intelligent person and it's great to see you are not a "blind follower" of any guru or dogma, as many people are, I have seen this a lot in the vegan community.

I think you have analyzed this deal a lot. Finding your own diet is finding one that matches your health, your body, your lifestyle and your priorities in life. The gurus out there simply bring the message of what has worked for them and what they believe will work for others. Some gurus are fakes, like I suspect many fruitarian gurus to be (you just can't pack on that much muscle from eating only fruit!), but other gurus I do believe in about what they teach. I just take what makes sense to me and what works for me.

AV is simply a messenger. Sure his methods and image are a bit extreme for many people, but he attracts many others who he also heals (go to one of his potlucks and many of the people there will give you testimonials, in person, of what they've been cured of if that's what you need). So there is no doubt that AV's methods work for and heal some people.

Keep in mind that not everyone is introduced to the raw paleo diet by AV. Many others first go low carb or cooked paleo and then they find a raw paleo group. I for one didn't know about AV until after I discovered raw paleo, and I can't say finding out about him has changed my mind about the diet at all.


It sounds to me like you just don't like AVs personality and the way he promotes his diet. Maybe he is partially a "fraud", maybe all the tests he says he has done aren't true (I agree with you on that one) but for me it doesn't matter as long as what he teaches works. Some people just need those scientific notations to believe anything.

[timmypatch]

I know I pledged to stay out of the fray, but Seeker and TylerDurdan's thoughtful comments warrant a response.

Seeker mentions of the diversity of non-primal dietary paths that have lead people to the discovery raw paleo.  I, for one, transitioned to raw paleo via cooked paleo.  Eating meat raw made a lot of sense to me from an anthropological standpoint, and I realized that I could save a whole lot of time and energy by foregoing cooking.  For me, the science of nutrition is fascinating.  I want to be healthy, but what is really fueling my willingness to go out on a limb and try new and unfamiliar dietary regiments is intellectual interest nutrition.  Unlike Tylerdurdan, I had no underlying health condition before turning to raw paleo, and haven't noticed any particularly stunning improvements in health since taking up the diet.  Tyler contends most individuals are too closed minded to make the transition to raw paleo in absence of serious health problems.  This is essentially the same argument that Aajonus makes, and it is one of which I am extremely skeptical.  After all, my experience alone proves that this is not the case with everyone, and my sense is that my experience pretty closely resembles that of about half of the people who post on this forum.  While TylerDurdan, Lex and Goodsamaritan, just to name a few, may have a history of health issues, my impression is that this is not the case with others (Sully and Boxcarguy come to mind).  Like me, a lot of people here seem to have elected to eat raw paleo based on a dedication to taking charge of their health even in absence of crippling medical conditions.

Certainly Western culture imposes numerous barriers to acceptance raw paleo dietary wisdom, but I think Tyler is too quick to dismiss its potential for broader appeal.  At least in America, health consciousness is increasingly in vogue.  Americans have demonstrated an incredible capacity to transform their diet and lifestyle on the basis of health considerations.  That most of these transformations have been misguided (i.e. margarine, high carb, low fat, vegetable oil) does not undermine the basic fact that culture in the information age is incredibly flexible and fast changing, especially with respect to dietary advise.  What's worth noting is that most of the major developments in conventional dietary dogma have taken place through a top down process with well esteemed professionals with broad and mainstream appeal pushing their views by way of conventional outlets.  A perfect example is Ancel Keyne's debut of his anti-saturated fat campaign on the front page of Time magazine.  Over time, the pharmaceutical industry may have provided some of the momentum beyond his low fat, anti-cholesterol views as they developed drugs to sell based on these notions, but any rational analysis of the situation recognizes that low fat propoganda initially went mainstream not on account of money or commercial interest but because a reputable, grandfatherly  doctor had given these views his blessing and had provided some sketchy data with a veneer of scientific validity to back it up.  If Raw paleo is to grow beyond its tiny circle of ardent followers, it needs the attract the attention of intelligent, scientifically minded individuals with broad public appeal.   On the other hand, so long as people like AV continue to have the loudest voice in the raw community, we will continue to scare away potential converts to the raw paleo way of eating.   My sense is that AV is a bit of a megalomaniac and likes being treated like a god on earth by his small following, and that for this reason he would actually prefer to keep Raw paleo style diets on the fringe and out of the mainstream since broader public appeal would ruin his cult status.  When Tylerdurdan voices almost word for word Aajonus' view that only those with serious medical conditions would be willing to attempt raw paleo, I can't help but feel concerned over the pervasiveness of AV's problematic influence.  And even if TylerDurdan's represents just one voice on the matter, his is an authoritative one within this community, and so I tend to assume that his views are probably shared by a number of others. 

I believe not only that we have potential mainstream appeal, but that it would be deeply irresponsible of us not to make good with it.  I believe that we hold the key to good health, and that it would be truly selfish and wrong of us not to share our knowledge and wisdom with all who are willing to listen.  The first step is making sure we don't allow AV's disdain for the mainstream color our public image.

[goodsamaritan]

Hi Timmy,

The picture I'm getting is raw paleo diet is such a wonderful discovery... return to the original human diet... so let's try and make this more popular so that more people will benefit.

I think we are moving in that direction... it just seems slow. 

At least today we have blogs, forums and cms websites.

To make something wildly popular needs funding too... marketing... we would need a funding mechanism, or an industry will have to grow up around raw paleo and make money while informing people of the benefits...

Maybe we can all have a piece of that action?  Maybe all the organic meat, ocean fish, and organic fruit producers will send each of us their top of the line products so we can sample them and write honest feedbacks.  That would be tasty.  There aren't that many of us currently for them to send mouth watering samples... hmmm.... makes me hungry.

[TylerDurden]

I've talked to so many RPDers online re their former health-problems that I can safely state that it's absurd to suggest that as much as a half of RPDers are just safeguarding their health. The vast majority report things like recovering from cancer after going rawpalaeo or some other benefit. Only a few are interested for other reasons, givne the difficulty involved in getting hold of grassfed meats, ensuring they're free of preservatives not to mention the social difficulties involved.

[timmypatch]

Absurd? I have to say I disagree.  Although regardless the size of the group of RPDers who are merely "safeguarding their health," the point is that this group does exist, and I would content that sensationalist guru's like AV scare us away.  Besides, it is precisely my contention that people like Aajonus are partly to blame for the relatively low numbers of individuals adopting RPD for broad and generalized health and wellbeing reasons.  It sounds to me an awful lot like you are begging the question by assuming, based on your sense that very few individuals without health crisis are currently practicing RPD (which I seriously doubt), that this will continue to be the case regardless of the sort of public image we create. 

[TylerDurden]

Absurd? I have to say I disagree.  Although regardless the size of the group of RPDers who are merely "safeguarding their health," the point is that this group does exist, and I would content that sensationalist guru's like AV scare us away.  Besides, it is precisely my contention that people like Aajonus are partly to blame for the relatively low numbers of individuals adopting RPD for broad and generalized health and wellbeing reasons.  It sounds to me an awful lot like you are begging the question by assuming, based on your sense that very few individuals without health crisis are currently practicing RPD (which I seriously doubt), that this will continue to be the case regardless of the sort of public image we create. 

The trouble with the above is that if I ever mention a raw-meat diet to people or they stumble across it, their first reaction is one of fear or that it's a cult or that anyone who eats raw meat is crazy. They have invariably never once heard of Aajonus Vonderplanitz prior to hearing about raw meat diets, so Aajonus' remarks/opinions don't factor into their opinions of what a raw-animal-food diet entails. Most have done no research on diet at all, so have no clue about toxins in cooked-foods or whatever. They simply "can't handle the truth" due to social conditioning - one reason why I consider it a waste of time to promote the diet to non-rawists - better to just have info for those who are genuinely curious and looking for an alternative approach.

Anyway, like I said before, Aajonus is only 1 guy and doesn't exactly represent the whole raw-foodist movement.

[timmypatch]

Yes, most people are impossibly biased and stubborn at present with regard to raw meat, and I'm perfectly willing to admit that this has nothing to do with AV or any other fanatical guru.  However, If you'd tried to get someone to replace butter in their with chemically altered vegetable oil (margarine) for health reasons 75 years ago, they probably would have looked at you like you were crazy too.  My point is that a lot of the science and paleontological evidence behind raw paleo is pretty new (which is ironic since it is essentially the oldest human diet), and you can't expect people to change their dietary views and habits overnight.  But that people like me have discovered, accepted, and adopted this diet for its scientific merit suggests that attitudes can and do change.  My worry is that AV-like figures are only serving to impede this process as individuals willing to give these sorts of ideas a chance are scared off by their hyperbole.