RAF: A Problematic Public Image?

[goodsamaritan]

Maybe AV is a double edged sword.
From your POV, you don't like him.
From my POV, I think he's the real deal.  Unfortunately, the raw dairy I get in my country does not work with me or maybe I'm not suited for raw dairy the way he is.  I also like his healing methodology... The recipes in his book are good too.

[timmypatch]

Maybe AV is a double edged sword.
From your POV, you don't like him.
From my POV, I think he's the real deal.  Unfortunately, the raw dairy I get in my country does not work with me or maybe I'm not suited for raw dairy the way he is.  I also like his healing methodology... The recipes in his book are good too.

That's a good way of putting things.  While its certainly true that AV has brought initial attention to RAF--especially amongst people with serious health problems whose terrible experiences with conventional nutrition and health-care have left them inclined to try just about anything new and different--my intuition is that he's far more likely to turn your average person away from the diet.  Tyler assumes that when people start getting sicker and sicker following conventional guidelines, Aajonus will become a more and more attractive alternative.  My problem with this line of reasoning is that their are so many other guru's out there with superficial similarities to Aajonus who really do preach nutritional regiments that will likely only to exacerbate underlying health conditions.  So, even if the whole world does get more and more sick, it will continue to be reticent of following fanatical sounding advise.  A more likely scenario, in my opinion, plays out like this: as the science of nutrition grows and matures, society will slowly come to accept dietary memes more in line with what is actually healthy, but that the presence of AV-like-figures backing sound dietary wisdom will only slow and delay this transition.

And by the way, Goodsamaritan, you come across as a very trusting and accepting individual.  This is a wonderful quality to have, but it is one that most people lack.  Whether or not AV's intentions are pure, you have to understand that the way he comes across will leave many people deeply suspicious of his ideas and of his motives.

[Raw Kyle]

I know personally a few people who have tried the Primal Diet but I don't know if they had any previous diseases that were cured. I know one person who cured MS on a mostly raw diet including raw vegan fair and meat as well as food based supplements like powdered greens and colostrum powder. I have also met several people claiming relief from various diseases like MS, heart disease, cancer etc. who were mostly raw vegan (because it's more popular) so I see no reason to disbelieve AV's claims of clientele success. I have also met AV and he doesn't seem too crazy to me, and had I taken the time to meet any of the 2 dozen or so others at the lecture I probably would have heard of recoveries from illness. The fact is that at 24 I don't personally know many people with disease period or people on the Primal Diet, let alone people fitting both categories. Do you have any personal contacts from Mongolia? Do you believe it's there? Why? Because it makes sense, fits in with other life experiences and there's no logical reason not to?

[timmypatch]

I know personally a few people who have tried the Primal Diet but I don't know if they had any previous diseases that were cured. I know one person who cured MS on a mostly raw diet including raw vegan fair and meat as well as food based supplements like powdered greens and colostrum powder. I have also met several people claiming relief from various diseases like MS, heart disease, cancer etc. who were mostly raw vegan (because it's more popular) so I see no reason to disbelieve AV's claims of clientele success. I have also met AV and he doesn't seem too crazy to me, and had I taken the time to meet any of the 2 dozen or so others at the lecture I probably would have heard of recoveries from illness. The fact is that at 24 I don't personally know many people with disease period or people on the Primal Diet, let alone people fitting both categories. Do you have any personal contacts from Mongolia? Do you believe it's there? Why? Because it makes sense, fits in with other life experiences and there's no logical reason not to?

RawKyle, I'm not quite sure where you were going with that question about Mongolia, but the gist of your argument seems to be that in absence of any strong evidence that would contradict AV's claims, we ought to give him the benefit of the doubt.  I disagree with this notion wholeheartedly, and not out of meanness or irrational ill-will toward the man, but simply because blindly believing what other people have to say (especially when their image is about as contrary to hard science and about as hostile to mainstream wisdom as could possibly be--the case with AV) smacks of occult and cultivates the seeds of doubt in the minds of outsiders as to our credibility. 

[goodsamaritan]

And by the way, Goodsamaritan, you come across as a very trusting and accepting individual.  This is a wonderful quality to have, but it is one that most people lack.  Whether or not AV's intentions are pure, you have to understand that the way he comes across will leave many people deeply suspicious of his ideas and of his motives.

When I came across Aajonus and his books I was already a hobby healer.  I had already healed myself and many friends and relatives.  I had already made http://www.fertilityhelp.net , http://www.eczemacure.info , and http://www.curemanual.com .

By the time I came across Aajonus I had already learned PH Balancing, raw vegan, raw fruitarian, natural hygiene, the teachings of Barefoot Herbalist MH and Dr. Christopher, the teachings of Dr. Tam Mateo, the teachings of Hulda Clark, the teachings of Andreas Moritz, the teachings of Wai Genriiu (already raw paleolithic diet).

So Aajonus was a late addition to my cure protocol and reading materials I recommend at http://www.curemanual.com/mind-cures-paradigm-shifts

What I mean to say is, I was already healthy by the time I came across Aajonus, I had gone around healing circles and had healed many people by that time.  I did not become interested in aajonus simply because I am a trusting individual.  In fact I am up in arms against western medicine (except for the emergency room)... in my experience western medicine theory and practice regarding diseases is mostly a FRAUD!

I became interested in Aajonus because I had read his books and his articles and his principles of healing LOGIC is very much consistent with what I already knew about holistic health.  I agree with almost everything AV recommends, and I like his recipe book because it is useful to get my family into raw paleo.  I do recognize that many people are unsuited to consume dairy like me.

[Raw Kyle]

It's called an educated guess, not blind faith. The educated part is that I've met people who have cured themselves of diseases on raw diets, the guess is that AV's clients could easily have done the same using similar raw diets recommended by him. Why you can't grasp this I don't understand, did he steal your girlfriend or something? Because you're whole presence on this forum so far has been to attack him, and we don't even follow him.

[timmypatch]

Goodsamaritan, point well taken.  I didn't mean to insinuate that you are a gullible person.  Just recognize that most people do not come from the same sort of background as do you, and will be less inclined than you to tend to see the sense behind the bluster.

RawKyle, you have obviously completely missed the point that I have been trying to make. 

[Raw Kyle]

I didn't miss the point at all, I think you're missing the point of this forum. It's not to market the diet and try to convert the world, it's to discuss our experiences and share our knowledge with each other. Most of us here are only very slightly concerned with spreading the diet to people who aren't interested in it already, and hence couldn't care less if you or anyone else sees this or that "guru" or "expert" as contrary to that goal. This is a raw paleo forum, not a raw paleo marketing or outreach forum. And everyone you pointed out is already going on here, people more often than not quote scientific articles rather than AV or any other gurus, etc.

I'm not interested in arguing about this but it seems like your attitude in this thread is to show us that we're doing something wrong by using AV so much, and not only are we not interested in being told that since once again I say this forum is not concerned with marketing the diet to the masses, but more importantly we don't use AV much at all as a source of hard and fast information. In fact there isn't one prolific poster on here that even follows his diet, let alone tries to convert others to it and use his writings all the time. The problem you outline in this thread does not exist for these reasons, which to summarize are A) we are not concerned first with public image, probably not even second or third, but much more concerned with connecting with people and sharing knowledge about this lifestyle and B) there is little to no AV propaganda on this forum

[timmypatch]

I didn't miss the point at all, I think you're missing the point of this forum. It's not to market the diet and try to convert the world, it's to discuss our experiences and share our knowledge with each other. Most of us here are only very slightly concerned with spreading the diet to people who aren't interested in it already, and hence couldn't care less if you or anyone else sees this or that "guru" or "expert" as contrary to that goal. This is a raw paleo forum, not a raw paleo marketing or outreach forum. And everyone you pointed out is already going on here, people more often than not quote scientific articles rather than AV or any other gurus, etc.

I'm not interested in arguing about this but it seems like your attitude in this thread is to show us that we're doing something wrong by using AV so much, and not only are we not interested in being told that since once again I say this forum is not concerned with marketing the diet to the masses, but more importantly we don't use AV much at all as a source of hard and fast information. In fact there isn't one prolific poster on here that even follows his diet, let alone tries to convert others to it and use his writings all the time. The problem you outline in this thread does not exist for these reasons, which to summarize are A) we are not concerned first with public image, probably not even second or third, but much more concerned with connecting with people and sharing knowledge about this lifestyle and B) there is little to no AV propaganda on this forum

I never tried to claim that anyone was trying to "convert" anybody else and have, in fact, praised the open minded personality of this forum.  Further, I realize that the primary purpose of this forum is to serve the social needs of those already following of the diet more than it is to spread the diet to new individuals, yet the generally positive esteem in which Aajonus is blindly held (yes, blindly, because even if most of us would agree that the health regiment he prescribes is fairly likely to produce positive results compared with the SAD, none of us can claim to know that his heart is where it should be, nor that he isn't just making up all of his wild theories about heavy metel detox etc.) frankly bothers me.  The only reason I brought this issue up was to shed some light on an underrepresented sentiment that is probably pretty pervasive among a newer demographic considering raw paleo style diets on its scientific, mainstream, agnostic merits alone.  Those who feel the way I do are probably disinclined to post on these forums for fear of being shouted down by the choir. 

Look RAWKyle, you really don't need to get so defensive about all this, I obviously don't expect to change a lot of people's minds.  It would be ridiculous of me to think that I would get anywhere stepping into a new community and trying to impose my contrarian viewpoint on everyone else.  While I may feel that it it is a worthwhile endeavor to reach out to others considering rawpaleo and to expand the community of Raw paleo eaters, I have no intention to force this goal on anybody else.  Rather, I started this topic to try to enlighten the most open minded community of RAF eaters I yet found online to what I feel is a systematic public image problem preventing wider acceptance, adoption, and support that pretty much all communities espousing raw food diets seem to have.  You all are, of course, are free to make of my feelings on the matter what you want.

[goodsamaritan]

yet the generally positive esteem in which Aajonus is blindly held (yes, blindly, because even if most of us would agree that the health regiment he prescribes is fairly likely to produce positive results compared with the SAD, none of us can claim to know that his heart is where it should be, nor that he isn't just making up all of his wild theories about heavy metel detox etc.) frankly bothers me.

You jumped to the wrong conclusion here. 
Aajonus' teachings nor any "guru" teaching is NOT blindly held in this forum.
Most people are self-experimentors and come to their own conclusions.

[Raw Kyle]

I'm not defensive, I'm offensive. You can trash AV all you want, I won't defend him much. I'd rather focus on saying that you're clutching at straws with this thread. You claim people here blindly follow AV? That's the stupidest thing ever written on this forum. I'll reiterate the first thing I posted in this thread, which is that I doubt you follow this forum much. The most popular thread is Lex's journal which is sans Vonderplanitz ideas, others journals are popular too as well as general posts about trying different organs or how to make high meat etc. There is not one popular thread about anything Vonderplanitz on this whole forum.

Honestly I think you wanted to make a point and may or may not have realized that the point didn't exist in the first place and now you're focusing on me and my "defensiveness" to try and divert attention away from your original point. I've done it before, had an idea and then after trying to explain it and failing realizing it didn't make sense in the first place. Read up on this forum and then re read your first post on this thread and tell me if it makes sense.

[timmypatch]

Well, I don't really know what to say.  I've I HAVE been reading this forum for several months, DO feel that I have a strong point, And DO NOT believe that I have been clutching to a dead argument--and any open minded, intelligent person who takes the time to read through this thread ought to be able to see that.  That said, I know where I'm not wanted.  I'm tired of wasting my time on people who are only going to shout at me, only half listen to what I am saying, and tell me I don't know what I'm talking about.  I'm done for real this time.