Vitalis on monogamy vs. polyamory

[Dorothy]

If a wife shuns sex - that says something not only about her - but about her partner. Women as they age get actually more sexual with partners that they enjoy and that give them what they need/want emotionally/energetically - like your friends wife GS with her lover. That has been my observation. Women don't stop wanting good sex - just bad, selfish or dishonest sex. Just like with singing voices, men hit their peaks in their 20's - but women in the 40's and 50's.

A marriage takes TWO people  - so if the other half isn't doing/giving what you want - the best place to get it to change is with yourself. Take the effort to communicate and learn something new and give more of what the other person wants and you might be surprised. What they might want might be something outside of actual sex so that they feel loved and appreciated or something else that might seem unrelated. It takes real listening to figure out what you could be doing to make your partner want you more - and maybe some thinking outside of the box.

Daniel sounds like he's into listening and working with his partner. I think they might have a chance. At least I'm wishing him complete success. I hope I'm still alive when he's 80 to hear that he had a wonderful love and life with his mate!

I've listened to lots of really old folk too GS. It's the same for them as it is for the young ones. If both partners are willing to listen, change, adapt and want to please it just keeps going. If either of them was selfish it was bad in the beginning and stays bad til the end.

[sabertooth]

For the sake of full disclosure, to avoid these misunderstandings I'll try to answer these concerns.

Sabertooth, on the same note, with your wife's history of possessiveness, what do you think her actual reaction will be when another woman is actually part of the picture instead of just flirting? Do you worry at all that you will lose your family and children by this experiment? A lot of people go along to try to make their partner happy, but then when it comes down to brass tacks things can get messy and emotions high if it's not all really honest and the real wish of both parties. When it comes down to children and the obviously wonderful relationship you have with your kids, that's when in our society things can get tricky no?

I appreciate your concern for the well being of my family.

I've heard the same mantra from many other well intentioned people from the beginning, and it is hard to refute such highly ingrained conceptions about the link between infidelity and family break up.

My father and mother tried a monogamous relationship and failed miserably. He was a hound dog and always will be, and my mother enjoyed prostituting herself for extra money. They had totally unrealistic expectations of what it takes to make a family, and ended up screwing up my own view of things in the process. There are countless more examples of people I know who  failed to keep a family together even though they gave monogamy a try.

There will always have be conflicting emotional troubles in the relationship between me and the mother of my children. I knocked her up three months into the relationship, and we were both forced by the conventions of the time to enter into a domestic partnership. Most people could never fathom the complexity of our particular life's problems. We both were clueless and lost at the beginning. We were possessive and mistrusting of each other, and neither of us could accept each others polyamorus feelings, so there was a lot of suppressed emotional tension constantly. I am as guilty as she was of being possessive.

These issues never totally went away and are still not completely resolved. What we have come to agree on is that its time to break the chains of a sexual monogamy that neither of us ever believed to fit our nature.

To be even more bluntly honest my partner came to me about finding someone to help me love her ( I think the slang term is run train), so I found a guy who I thought would fit in and gave her permission to seduce him. Soon after she began courting this other man it became apparent that she didn't just want some casual sexual encounter with another man , but instead wanted to be in a more meaningful relationship. At the time right before all this she was really unhappy all the time, complaining of depression and just didn't have any spark in her eyes anymore. Then after I gave her the ok to start chasing this other guy a huge change came over her. She began working out and eating better. She had that spark of happiness that I just couldn't deny her the chance at romance. 

Naturally I felt a little left out and so got her to allow me to start pursuing an other woman. This is where we are right now. I feel good about the possibility of new love and romance. My testosterone is pumping ever higher and now that I have found a lady friend to focus my attention on , I no longer am so jealous of the other man. She is a nice older woman who is sweet, and she has a boy who is friends with my son. We have gone out on a play date with the kids, and have a lot in common, but we are still playing coy. I love the romance and mystery of courting just as much as the mating ritual.
 
My wife and her boyfriend have been taking things very slowly, as well. She goes to visit him, on average, once a week and they have kissed, snuggled and messed around a bit but six weeks into their relationship, have yet to be fully intimate. He is waiting for the right time and this has given her a new found sense of peace and security, perhaps even a little bit of restored self confidence that someone could want to actually spend time with her without using her and tossing her when he is through.

To quote one of my wife's favorite songs by her favorite singer,
"All we have to see
Is that I don't belong to you
And you don't belong to me
Freedom
You've gotta give for what you take
Freedom
You've gotta give for what you take."

[goodsamaritan]

Dorothy, my wife's story is she's had 3 c-sections and 1 appendectomy.  So she's been surgery traumatized enough + sever post partum on the 3rd child.  And I understand that.  As far as fooling around with contraception, we are health nuts, so we aren't into that.  She knows I just love children. And my blogs are public.  And that I tell people I'm looking for 4 wives per son.

Sabertooth,  the only pitfall there is you might get cuckolded (she gets pregnant with her boyfriend). 

I personally draw the line at cuckolding.  Although if that's a golden child and the child support is skyrocketing high then it maybe advantageous.

[Dorothy]

Sabertooth - thank you for telling that whole story. Obviously the standard concerns of the woman leaving with your children based infidelity and trying to punish you through withholding the children that happens so often in our society is far from your situation as your wife was the person that initiated the course of events. The fact that you both want the same thing is the key. I was a little worried for you with your obviously close relationship with your kids - and you compassionately put me at ease. It sounds like both of you have a chance at some real happiness.

[Dorothy]

Dorothy, my wife's story is she's had 3 c-sections and 1 appendectomy.  So she's been surgery traumatized enough + sever post partum on the 3rd child.  And I understand that.  As far as fooling around with contraception, we are health nuts, so we aren't into that.  She knows I just love children. And my blogs are public.  And that I tell people I'm looking for 4 wives per son.

That's sad GS. Also thank you for sharing more of your story. It sounds like your wife is incapable of having fulfilling sex any more due to all the surgeries? Or is it fully that she doesn't want to get pregnant again and doesn't want want to use contraception so doesn't want to have sex in order to prevent pregnancy? How does she feel about you being with other women?

[goodsamaritan]

That's sad GS. Also thank you for sharing more of your story. It sounds like your wife is incapable of having fulfilling sex any more due to all the surgeries? Or is it fully that she doesn't want to get pregnant again and doesn't want want to use contraception so doesn't want to have sex in order to prevent pregnancy? How does she feel about you being with other women?

She doesn't want to get pregnant again and doesn't want to use contraception and I agree with that.

She's giving me away.

Maybe she will want me when I've got millions... so I'm dreaming there will be one more child... a son.  I've had that name and dreamt about that son years ago.  That name only goes to that son I will have with my wife.

Gotta make millions.

[goodsamaritan]

Sabertooth - thank you for telling that whole story. Obviously the standard concerns of the woman leaving with your children based infidelity and trying to punish you through withholding the children that happens so often in our society is far from your situation as your wife was the person that initiated the course of events. The fact that you both want the same thing is the key. I was a little worried for you with your obviously close relationship with your kids - and you compassionately put me at ease. It sounds like both of you have a chance at some real happiness.

From my point of view, that is puzzling why your women withhold kids from their father because of infidelity.  It's just not culturally the case here.

Maybe it is because your government steps in and demands child support even if the father has limited contact with his children.

Here, if the woman limits the access to the father, she won't get child support as the government has no say in any of this.

Besides, the father has his own extended family and you don't want a family feud now do you?

We mostly culturally view infidelity as a reason to part ways as ridiculous because 99% of men are womanizers.  That woman is looking for something that is most likely very hard to find or almost impossible.  Naive?

Why your culture makes a big issue out of Bill Clinton or Tiger Woods... eyes roll.

It's all cultural.

[Dorothy]

Yes, it's cultural and legal in terms of divorce proceedings as is the reasons why men would all be womanizing in a particular culture and other cultures put value on monogamy and a mother's right to keep her children. Double standards are common generally when it comes to women culturally since written history. Women traditionally were considered possessions like you would own a horse a slave. This idea that the children go with the mother instead of being owned by the male lineage is a new one actually.

So GS - what's the answer to my questions above? Is your wife capable of having sex any more or is it that she just doesn't want to get pregnant again?

[goodsamaritan]

I thought I answered this.

>Is your wife capable of having sex any more

Yes she is capable.

> or is it that she just doesn't want to get pregnant again?

And she does not want to get pregnant again.

She slipped 1 time after 5 years.
She slipped another 1 time after 7 years.

We can always dream. 

[Dorothy]

So, is the reason she doesn't want to get pregnant again because of all the surgeries? What affect has all those surgeries had on her?

How does she feel/what does she think about your going outside of the marriage for sex?

[goodsamaritan]

So, is the reason she doesn't want to get pregnant again because of all the surgeries? What affect has all those surgeries had on her?

Yes yes... another baby means another surgery.
She's very sensitive to pain, they can't give her enough pain killers.
She suffers for more than a month with each c-section.
The last pregnancy turned into a long depression.  She recovered on green honey.

Saw recently my sister in law (my brother's wife) get a 2nd c-section and she handled it like a champ... even boasted to my brother that the doctor said her uterus was good for a total of 4 children... and this was less than 24 hours after the c-section.  Unlike my wife...

How does she feel/what does she think about your going outside of the marriage for sex?

She doesn't ever think about it.  Doesn't talk about it.

In fact when we were much younger before we got married I didn't get any respect nor desire for her to get married after almost 6 years of BF-GF.  I was raised as the good boy type like my good friend.  She didn't appreciate that.  I put her on a pedestal and said I wanted to marry her a virgin.  She began working in another town, I visited her back and forth devotedly and begged her for marriage... after much badgering she reluctantly said yes... but panicky and frightened...

One time I surprise visited her and she didn't come home that night.  She came from a party with friends and went home to the boy's house.  Funny their car arrived in her home in the morning and I was waiting... Ooohhh the drama... ha ha ha.

And after the drama my wife wanted a cool off / broke up.  Our engagement was over and I was shattered.  My fragile belief system of monogamy, good boy being rewarded was all bullshit.

After much sadness... I started moving on and found myself a new chick.

Only then did I realize that my wife appreciated me now that I had a new chick and she demanded she come back to me... and get married.  She was in the USA on a tour with her boss government administrator... she asked that she get off the trip... go back home to the Philippines to come and get me... away from the new chick.

I picked her up at the airport and she was dressed to grab her man back... short shorts and tank top.

I had enough sense to have to test her virginity, I might be catching someone elses child... what me cuckold?

Good she turned out a virgin and bled so the marriage was set and here we are.

So I learned first hand that she only appreciated me as long as there was "competition."  And I had observed all throughout their family that it was par for the course for men to have extras and their women appreciated those men.  Her siblings, her parents, her grandparents... it's virtually a family tradition of mistressing and bastard children.

My wife, even when we first met at 18 is the zero jealous type.  She never ever minds that I walk with her and I oggle other women, or ask me why I was late or where I came from... she learned that from her mom... and she was the one who insisted we had separate money accounts instead of a pooled account... her mother taught her that.  It's as if she never really cared for me is what some people think... my grandfather thinks that... but she's the mother of my 3 children... and I love her for that... plus I call her the "hottest" and the "sexiest" and "prettiest"... never the "one and only" she hates that.

On her 1st and 2nd pregnancy she surprisingly became the sweetest thing.  On the 3rd pregnancy (girl) she became a raging monster.  In a party we had she lashed out that this (child pointing out at her tummy) was the last... And I similarly retorted... that's your last... but not my last.

(my soul will never rest until I have met my quota of children... and my soul quota wasn't 3)

What's important for her is I make tons of money.

My family used to be quite wealthy until my parents' business empire collapsed.

Maybe when I'm wealthy again I'll get my dreamt about son.

I wanted to marry her because for me she's the prettiest and sexiest thing... 5 stars erection.  As my mom taught me, marry a pretty woman so you wake up every day smiling seeing a beautiful person.  That she is.  But virtually sexless for 7 years... 2 encounters in 7 years is pretty sex less... and I keep seeing this sexy woman... but no sex... is torture.  Happy torture?

[wodgina]

Hey thanks for your stories fella's

[Dorothy]

GS - thank you for telling us so much of your personal life. It makes me understand so much of what you say that is usually out of context to the whole of who you are and your experiences. If your wife truly picked you primarily because of your family's money the answer might not be making millions - because you still won't have her heart - you will just be buying her.

I can understand your wife's issues though completely. She is in pain physically and emotionally when having children by the time she had her third.

Since you have been so generous, I'd like to ask you another question. How does your culture perceive sex without penetration? Oral sex, mutual masturbation etc. How does or would your wife react to such advances?

I'm just going to write out for you what came to my mind when reading what you wrote. Not knowing you or especially your wife personally these are flights of fancy ... but worth putting down to think about imho. With the threat of deep pain associated with sex - who would choose it? Most women believe it or not get no pleasure from sex, do not orgasm. For them sex is not at all pleasurable. But if sex could be without the negative repercussions and the two of you could get physically and emotionally close again you might learn if it is really just about money because honestly, if your wife does not love you but only loved your money, but is placed in extreme pain with the outcome of sex - money will likely not win you that son. If you can't win your wife's heart without the money - do you really have a marriage of the heart? Perhaps there would be another woman who could love you unconditionally and totally if your wife is unable. You might have picked the wrong woman for yourself if your wife never loved you. BUT - as of yet you do NOT know that she doesn't love you! You know that she is conditioned from her family. You are a healthy raw paleo and intelligent man.  I bet you could get her to let you please HER. Pleasing a woman without intercourse is an art and a SCIENCE that can be learned and practiced. It would take you getting her to tell you what pleased her physically. She might not even know - you would have to keep trying until you did learn what gives her delight. If you could start to break down the chains of programming first with pushing in with a giving attitude instead (an attitude which might be new to her) she might just let go of a lot of the other programming. From what she wrote of her she sounds like she is alternative and into thinking outside the box in other realms in her life. Maybe she needs someone to help her get out of the box in the bedroom too? You think she just wanted to keep you from another woman. That's the programming. That kind of programming just can't touch one human touching another with love intimately over and over and giving deep pleasure. Loving someone that way - it's hard for them not to get won over. As her husband she might refuse you penetration because of fear, but will she turn you away when all you want to do is give her pleasure and ask nothing in return?

You could learn about that spot we talked about in the other thread to release the energy or you could learn how to take the energy up your spine and become even more healthy.

Your relationship with your wife seems to give you pain. I'm just wondering if it could somehow be transformed.

These are just ideas that came to me. I'd love to hear the thoughts that came up for you from sharing them.

[Alive]

Thanks for sharing guys.
My wife hasn't wan't sex since having children 10 years ago : (
Polyamory sounds like a potential solution to this problem, although it seems that we males need to be successful in a competitive situation to obtain any interest. With most other animals where the winner in the tussles gets to pass on their genes.

[Dorothy]

http://www.thirdage.com/sex/why-women-stop-having-sex

At the end of this article it says why women reported they no longer wanted to have sex. It might not be from having the baby alone. Having a baby changes a lot for a couple and will make things even more pronounced in places where there was already something wrong.

The brain is the biggest sex organ. If a woman is angry or depressed about things with her husband that have nothing to do with sex or sex is painful or she is frightened - she's simply not going to be interested.

Alive - why does your wife say she no longer wants to have sex? 
Does she no longer want you to sexually please her without penetration?
In what other ways is she unhappy?

[goodsamaritan]

>> How does your culture perceive sex without penetration? Oral sex, mutual masturbation etc. How does or would your wife react to such advances?

That's already part of the bundle of 2 encounters in 7 years.

>> My wife hasn't wan't sex since having children 10 years ago : (
>> Polyamory sounds like a potential solution to this problem,

Polyamory has always been the traditional historical time tested solution for sex less ness or barrenness of a spouse.

[Dorothy]

GS - have you tried to offer just the fun without the pain/fear letting her know in advance that you wanted nothing out of it? That's totally different than foreplay.

I'm not saying this is you or Alive - but sometimes a man can blame the woman when in fact what is really happening is that they simply do not understand their woman. Women aren't trained to talk about what they want or what's really wrong. Shame is pretty ingrained into women in all cultures. Many women, even most women! - don't enjoy sex. For many it is even painful. They do not understand that sex can be enjoyable because it never has been for them. Men are not trained/educated on how to make sex enjoyable for a woman. Women will often fake their enjoyment to make their man feel good. Most women simply cannot have an orgasm with penetration. The stress of feeling like they are going to have to go through it can take away all enjoyment after sex has become a horrible chore. Fear of anything will shut off sexual enjoyment real fast. 

I'm not saying that moving on is wrong when you are with someone that doesn't love you. I'm not saying that wanting to continue to take care of your women and children and find love in other places is wrong as long as you are honest and open about it. What I'm concerned about is that your women are unhappy. It's not like finding another man who is going to give them pain and trouble is going to make it any better for them either. It's you guys that are their only hope for their sexual pleasure and happiness. You have a commitment to do your best to figure out how to pleasure your women for the long-run. You are the ones that are into paleo, advancing, growing - and being able to really pleasure a woman without putting pressure on her for children or penetration or even your own sexual pleasure is something that you can't understand the benefits of without trying it.

Going out and finding more women who you can't really pleasure might get you more children - but not necessarily the happiness of communion and real intimacy.

No woman will turn down real pleasuring and tenderness from her husband who is trying hard to please her in all areas of the relationship.

A flower, a treat in bed, little sexy presents, little tendernesses. If dropping your underwear in the bathroom bothers her - pick it up.

My husband brings me tea in bed every morning. He rubs my back. He sings little songs for me. If I'm upset about something he sits down and really listens and changes it. He supports me in what I want to do. He draws little cartoons of things I say. He doesn't bring me flowers because I rather have my garden - so he builds me raised beds! For a woman it's the small things, the little things that add up. You can have millions of dollars and it won't mean any more than that rose and foot rub. You might think the fact that you make the money and pay the bills and bought a house and run a business means more. It doesn't. You putting her FIRST is what most women want more than anything.  Taking time for her to really listen means more. Just her feeling like you might leave for someone else might be enough to make her turn you away. All women want to feel like you want them the most. That's where the competition thing comes in - because then you are actively choosing her. There are ways to make a woman feel this without having to go to other women. This is something I know not only from being a woman, but from listening to women. But no one tells the MEN this! How are they supposed to know?!

Women - ask your men for exactly what you want. Don't think that if they loved you they would figure it out. I would tell my husband this is exactly what I would like you to do. This is exactly how I want you to say exactly this in this exact tone of voice. This is how I want you to touch me. He does the same with me. Now we know exactly how to make each other happy because we taught each other what to do.

Men - if your woman hasn't figured out  how to tell you what she wants - train her to do it!

Communication is the key to any successful relationship and it is not taught. We learn all sorts of useful things in school, but not how to reach each other.

[sabertooth]

I know all kinds of people who live in sex deprived relationships. Some of it could by physiological.  A lot of peoples hormones are screwed up in today's world, and hormone disrupting pollutants can severely cull a woman's sex drive.

Women in pristine health should go through normal cycles of heat and crave sex regularly(regardless of how the jerks around her may act). Every now and then my lady will hit a cold streak and for about a week I will be forced to go without. Sometimes Its stress, fatigue, mensuration cycles or secretive masturbation that leads women to not put out for their men. Other times it is the mans emotional neglect of the woman's needs that put out the fire of desire. Its very possible in many cases of frigidity the cause is a combination of both physical and emotional factors.

Hormonaly disrupted females will often not give out the proper ques that would entice a man to be more tender. They will not be as receptive to a mans attempts at tenderness, and so very often the man will feel rejected and do or say something that only makes things worse. (This is all highly speculative and may not apply GS or Alives situation, but I am fairly sure its a common occurring phenomenon in the world)

 I talk with this old hillbilly/ cowboy/ Romeo on the subject of womens hormonal issues, and we have a hypothesis that there is something in the environment that is not only effecting their sexual expression and drive, but is also causing epidemics of ovarian cyst, cancer, thyroid dysfunction, etc. If there are pollutants in the food and water, that are causing an epidemic rise in these conditions then it is safe to say that perhaps large portions of the population are being inundated with hormone disrupting elements. Most people exposed will not develop cancer, but they may have some of their normal hormonal functions such a sex drive impaired.

 I read a book called "Our stolen future"  that dealt with the subject in detail. It chronicled how pesticides such as DDT not only made the Eagles eggs weak and break , but in lower doses even if the eagles did hatch eggs, the parent birds showed behavioral dysfunctions that caused them to neglect their offspring. I think the same side effects of low dose exposure to pesticides occur in humans. It doesn't out right make you ill, but it saps you vital essence, and interferes with the physiology of instinctive sexual response.
 
I agree with Dorothy that there can be issues with the male not providing the right kind of tender loving care that cause frigidity. I just think that  nutritional  imbalances, lack of sunlight, exercise, lack other supporting relationships play just as important a role in many cases. A holistic approach should be sought out to remedy the problem of frigidity.

[Dorothy]

I agree with you totally Sabertooth. Physiology and hormones do play a massive role in sexuality. It's hard to calculate how much of a role they play in any given relationship. The thing is that the men can't have control over that aspect except encouraging their spouses through example to eat better and do purification and get into trying to increase their health.  They can however have control over the communication they offer - especially as raw paleo men with more strength. When a woman goes and masturbates on her own though - that's a sign that there are intimacy problems - because if there is a partner that wants to do that with - it's more fun to do together.

Another thing might be what you alluded to - what feels natural in turns of frequency of sex to each partner. Going without for a week during cycles might not feel like a deprivation to some but others feel deprived going a day without sex. Some couple have sex only once a month or so and feel fine with that. When there is a conflict in that regard - usually the intimacy of other aspects of the relationship and deep caring allow couples to work these things out in ways that work if there is enough communication.

And btw - it's not always the women that want less sex. I want more sexual contact than my husband so I've had to do with him what I'm talking about the men doing with their women here. I don't go looking for another man - I've just learned what I need to do with the one I have and love already.

[wodgina]

Imagine the other way around and the man comes home and says no I don't want to have sex with you and doesn't have sex with his wife for years on end. Imagine how rejected she would feel.

It seems a bit harsher for some reason. The 80/20 rule is turned upside down.

[goodsamaritan]

Lots of men can't get it up in their 40s and 50s.
Good thing we are raw paleo.

As for the nice things Dorothy has about figuring out how to make wives tick again... There is always hope that they tick again... but in the meantime, men need to have sex often enough to maintain their sanity.  And those sexually disabled women usually understand this... maintain sanity.

[Joy2012]

GS, It sounds like you have been sadly disappointed in your marriage. It seems that you would rather be a faithful husband in a happy marriage if your wife were capable of receiving/returning your love for her.

Dorothy, in GS's case it might be that the fault does not lie with GS not understanding women.  Maybe his wife has never been capable of receiving/returning true love because of her family background. It does not look like she married him for the right reason in the first place.

[Alive]

Hormonaly disrupted females will often not give out the proper ques that would entice a man to be more tender. They will not be as receptive to a mans attempts at tenderness, and so very often the man will feel rejected and do or say something that only makes things worse. (This is all highly speculative and may not apply GS or Alives situation, but I am fairly sure its a common occurring phenomenon in the world)

Yes this sounds familiar - in my situation we are kind of swapped with our gender roles - my wife is getting out and trying earn the dollars, coming home late, working 7 days, only interested in talking about work, works on laptop in bed morning and night. I prefer to look after her and our kids - getting wife coffee in bed, dropping kids to school and back home, doing all the paperwork to keep up with my wife's investments, staying home in weekends to look after kids. We now have separate bedrooms, which is great so she can wake up at 3am and do some work on the laptop, and I can control my sleep environment. I am feeling more comfortable with my life now as I have a break from the incessant chit chat about work I get from my wife. I am now thinking of our arrangement for how good it is for all of us in my family to pursue our independent lives while enjoying the comfort and stability of a shared home. 

[wodgina]

Shit that's huge hours.

[ys]

but in the meantime, men need to have sex often enough to maintain their sanity

that's very true if someone does not have both hands.