Vitalis on monogamy vs. polyamory

[sabertooth]

Monogamy vs. Polyamory, w/Daniel Vitalis, episode #549
It seems to me that Vitalis gives the most well articulated and well balanced view on the subject.

[goodsamaritan]

Daniel is a Supreme politician.

I was just shooting the breeze with a fellow RPD practitioner and he's American white... and after more than a decade living in the Philippines he saw just how polygamy / polyamory worked in my (primitive) culture.  The women want it.  They know the man is married and the more they keep hitting at you.  (Whether you are Filipino or White).

And this is why tourists and expats say "It's more fun in the Philippines".

I don't know if it is the same thing with all you ladies out there in the world, but in my country, a young lady should NEVER tell her friends or sisters or cousins or nephews that her boyfriend or husband is a very good man... it's like painting a bulls eye at him... there you go ladies... that's my endorsement... now make a stampede for my guy... line up... and see if he can be your sperm donor...

[goodsamaritan]

In the 1500s when the Spanish arrived in my islands they were shocked to see that virtually all the males had various forms of attachments on their penises... all designed to pleasure the women. 

Shows just how sexual women were in the 1500s... they wanted manly men.

Even in the 1980s my driver was assigned in less civilized areas as a soldier and he had to get a penis attachment because women didn't desire a man without a penile attachment. 

Just saying that the primitive woman's point of view is different.

[goodsamaritan]

Then there was the story of an elderly Filipino man I met who was assigned to manage a bank in one of the black african countries (can't remember which).

And he saw that women, even his employees, were having babies left and right without marrying a man and with different men.

And he was dumbfounded and asked why.

And the women said, they just wanted to.
( this was in the 1980s )

[CitrusHigh]

Lol, GS you are priceless!

I doubt your message will be well received by the goddesses here, but who knows?

How do you feel about the vice versa? One woman get's lots of guys?

I'm all about polyamory, but not in any kind of ratio, just natural free love, kind of like the 60's, but without the in your faceness and rebelliousness, it's just, if you're attracted to more than one person you shouldn't be limited, and neither should they. This is super radical I know, but try to see it from an infinite love perspective. Monogamy to me is very possessive, and I don't know that any one person is good for a lifetime match, unless that happens naturally. Marriage is one of the single worst ideas we've ever had, just like agriculture, yuckinsky.

[goodsamaritan]

>> How do you feel about the vice versa? One woman get's lots of guys?

That's so common.

Never ever trust women, even your own wife.  Women are designed to lie to men and men are designed to be suckers of lying women.  The only thing a man can trust is in DNA Paternity Tests.

I've seen this first hand with my women friends and relatives and my employees and acquaintances.

Women are promiscuous until they get the sperm / genes they want / prefer for their offspring.

They just shut up and act like saints when they've met their quota of children.

- a provincial woman working in the city will usually have 2 boyfriends... one in the province and one in the city.
- lonely women will target approach a man to be their lover
- women who aren't sexually satisfied with their husbands will get a lover
- women at a young age will try to shame a boy into just having 1 girl friend, all the while the young woman may have several boyfriends... and when and if she gets pregnant she looks for the sucker who will catch her.

Given anonymity women are just as and even more promiscuous than men.

IF you as a man want to take advantage of getting these women who cheat... you have to guarantee anonymity. 

Although you might wind up dead if her husband or boyfriend is a policeman, a soldier, a politician... happened publicly to a young actor  fooling around with a mature beautiful mistress with 5 children... young actor got caught by big time politician and warlord Alpha Male husband... and he and his bodyguards... made an example of the young actor... public spectacle!

Our current President's sister, herself ultra rich and born of a rich family, actress, host, public endorser is a sperm collector... collecting only quality sperm from quality married / previously married men with children, actors and athletes.  Her life is an open book.  Whichever men she chased around and finally conquered and got her sperm to make her babies.

I have seen so many things that these women do... that Maury show is spot on.

[TylerDurden]

In fact most Western women do indeed say nasty, false things/moan about their boyfriends if their boyfriends are of any quality, precisely because they don't want competition.

[Dorothy]

Isn't one "women" thread enough room to bash on?

If I hadn't already learned about the paleo diet from Phil on another forum and came here first and saw all the woman bashing here like I did when I first got here without already knowing the value of the raw paleo diet, I would have spent a couple of minutes and left and would have lost out on so much important knowledge about diet to be gained. 

GS, what if you went to a new forum and saw multiple threads on how much everyone thought that Phillipinos were liars etc. Anyone, take your own ethnic group and fill in the blanks.

Anyone new reading this - this has absolutely NOTHING to do with the raw paleo diet. The "Off Topic" section does not depict us all or even give you a clue of what might happen to your thought processes, beliefs etc. when going paleo and by far does not depict accurately the general community. A lot of us just don't want to have anything to do with such conversations - that's why they seem so skewed.

Just had to throw that in just in case a new intelligent woman happens by.

[goodsamaritan]

Sorry about that. 

I apologize, I'm wrong to derail this thread.

Daniel Vitalis made me do it.  He's such a politician / salesman... what's the latest, deer antler velvet?

Daniel ranted on and on and didn't make any sense.

He was trying so hard to be "safe".

(Hopefully, I'm on topic this time.)

All this notion of pair bonding for life is not true... not exclusively monogamous anyway.  How many girlfriends and boyfriends most people these days have before they get married.  And how many times do they get married?

The more honest observers are that of "The Selfish Gene" and "Sperm Wars" and for TV it's the Maury Show.

And just look at divorce rates and family mash ups.... it's not pair bonding for life that I see.

There are very few for life monogamies all throughout (or the infidelities are hidden) and that is idealized.

[Dorothy]

Sorry about that. 

I apologize, I'm wrong to derail this thread.

Daniel Vitalis made me do it.  He's such a politician / salesman... what's the latest, deer antler velvet?

Daniel ranted on and on and didn't make any sense.

He was trying so hard to be "safe".

(Hopefully, I'm on topic this time.)

All this notion of pair bonding for life is not true... not exclusively monogamous anyway.  How many girlfriends and boyfriends most people these days have before they get married.  And how many times do they get married?

The more honest observers are that of "The Selfish Gene" and "Sperm Wars" and for TV it's the Maury Show.

And just look at divorce rates and family mash ups.... it's not pair bonding for life that I see.

There are very few for life monogamies all throughout (or the infidelities are hidden) and that is idealized.

Thanks GS.
For what it's worth when I opened the video I was expecting to hear a discourse that supported anthropologically what you said above GS or some such thing. My first impression on seeing Daniel was, "Wow, he's looking good! He seems so happy and healthier. I wonder if he is doing something different in his diet." Then as time went on I realized that the guy is in Love. It's clear that he's really wanting his monogamous relationship to continue and to deepen. I'm happy for him! Making a long-term relationship of any kind be successful usually takes commitment, honesty and good communication skills. They are rare, but when achieved can bring to people a profundity of good feeling and security like nothing else.

[Ioanna]

Polygamy is not ‘wrong’
Monogamy is not ‘right’

Just like raw paleo, both are simply a reflection of a consciousness.  In order to have found monogamy most satisfying one would have to have found truly unconditional love for another. Not only do your souls have to collide, but both have to be open to fully giving and fully receiving.  A miraculous event given the easy temptation to give in to pride, money, chemistry, or just the unexplained habit to push happiness and success away.  I can see how polygamy would be great for latter, but once one finds that unconditional relation, there just is no other that can touch you the same.

As for women being nasty, cheating liars and men just doing what they were born to do... I'm really over the double standard. Can't we move on?  Can't we have a discussion about this topic without it being an insult to one gender or the other??   Please stop making generalizations about women. It is more hurtful than you can possibly have the compassion to realize.  You (men) have your deplorably toxic thread, please keep your wisdom there.  The women here do not reciprocate, nor do we care to participate…. But I bet the women you described above would.... is that the conversation you're looking for? 

It's supposed to be enlightening/informative/mind-opening to talk about 'off topic' subjects with like-minded people.... isn't it??

[sabertooth]

My main impression of Daniel Vitalis, is that he is a true seeker that is earnestly going through a process of maturation. He has grown in wisdom and happiness since his days of blind vegetarianism. He has had a multitude of experiences with celibacy, polyamory, and now monogamy.  It took trying out all these different paths in order to learn enough about life and love to make him the love guru in the video below. 

Say what you will about human kinds sexual confusion: as far as I can see Daniels outlook and attitudes seem very sane, and healthy. Even if he is a bit far out and new age.

He seems to be living an enjoyable life and is continually growing, maturing, and thriving.

Daniel Vitalis on Sex & Orgasm (Part I of II), episode #366

Daniel Vitalis on Circumcision & Female Orgasm, Episdoe #367

[sabertooth]

In fact most Western women do indeed say nasty, false things/moan about their boyfriends if their boyfriends are of any quality, precisely because they don't want competition.

I think it may be more of a war against the male ego, that causes women to say negative things about their partner. Its the egoism of an unchecked partner man or woman that will lead one to stray from the relationship.( Its a "I am better than you so I deserve better" mentality) My woman has to point out some of stupid things I do each and every day, because if she doesn't my unchecked ego would run amok leading me to all kinds of rascally behavior.

She had to find ways to instill a feeling fear and inadequacy  to make me so afraid and unsure to even attempt looking at an other woman during the first few years of our relationship. The few times I was caught the backlash was so strong, that I think its given me some kind of neurotic complex,  I still cant seem to get over.

This type of battle line interaction is necessary in immature relationships ( especially between refugees of a denigrated culture such as yours truly} in order to keep checks and balances on a couple that doesn't truly trust or like one other. The constant slinging of arrows against egos can become so ingrained into the fabric of daily interactions that it is often hard to cease firing even after the relationship has matured and true loving acceptance becomes more present.

The war is now over in our household, after 6 years we have both surrendered and no longer demand exclusivity from each other. In fact we will often have a good time together helping each other think of ways to flirt with our other crushes. {Its become a new game}. The romance has returned and we are snuggling and spooning more than ever.

Still I feel unsure of initiating extra marital relations, even though the urge is high and the barriers low. Its a lingering guilt that was burned into my being during the first few years of the war.

[wodgina]

Only 20% of men in all history have passed on their genes to the next generation who's the ones who are shopping around for the best product?

I really think what women say is an unconcious way to weed out the Beta males 'Be a good guy, just one woman, be nice, get a good job' even your mum probably unconciously says these things even though she wants you to answer back and be cheeky.

[sabertooth]

I believe that there is some kind of subconscious  culling of men with sub alpha traits. Though its difficult to discuss these matters without ruffling a few tail feathers.

The problem is that a lot of what people find amorous is still heavily influenced by cultural conditioning, so that women having been raised by inadequate and broken men really wont have a good good example of a true Alpha male to set the standard upon.

There is a woman I am trying to corral at the present moment. She is very sweet on me, and there is good chemistry between us. Sadly she is the victim of unfortunate circumstance. She is a codependent that was in a long term relationship with an alcoholic. Even though she is very intelligent and goes to  al anon meetings and she really wants to be able to be loved by a better type of man, there still seems to be this kind of barrier that prevents her from giving herself fully to a man who doesn't exhibit the same negative addictive traits as her EX.

An upstanding, well built, confident male who is a good role model for her son and shows her abundant affection, is something she just isn't able to accept, because her internal wiring has been set up in the role of a codependent.
Codependents do not know where to fit into a relationship with a truly well intended and well rounded lover, that doesn't have any major problems. They often unconsciously seek out low life's. Then wonder why there arnt any good mates in the world.

[Dorothy]

May I point out that there are male and female alphas and in humans it is not only the alphas that mate like in some other species. Not every man really wants an alpha female and not every female really wants an alpha male. You might think they do - but the relationships that are monogamous and work are about balance and honesty - especially with oneself! Alphas don't have to work at it - it just is - and they don't go a-blustering. Most of the ones that like to think they are alphas aren't really because they aren't calm and natural in the role. If you are attracted to others that want to control you or to broken people - I highly doubt you are a natural alpha. But who cares? Being an alpha isn't all that it's made out to be! Alphas in other species usually are stressed by responsibility and die early.

Everything that was said about women goes equally for men. Most issues with relationships are those of being a human being.

[Projectile Vomit]

There is a woman I am trying to corral at the present moment...

Aren't you married, with children?

[sabertooth]

Everything that was said about women goes equally for men. Most issues with relationships are those of being a human being.

I agree totally, and only mentioned alpha males in response to Wodgina. The terms alpha and beta work well in reference to the lower pack animals like wolfs.

Humans although they share much in common with wolfs have a much more advanced social hierarchy. In which traditionally general roles were played by differnt members of the tribe in accordance to individual attributes. The strongest fittest and wisest men and women, by virtue of their value to the communitte gained the love and admiration of the others in the tribe. The top dogs were rewarded for thier hard work and leadership by the respect of the community as a whole as well as sexual favors by those who became enamored with their virtue.

Betas in tribal societies were played very important supporting roles and were still able to take mates of their own, and be loved and accepted by the communtiee.

Personally I prefer a beta role or at least a middle ground between the two. I want to be admired and fawned over by the women in the community, and someone for the youth to look up to. I want a chance to earn the love of other women by acts virtue and honor.

The problem is not that that people are being divided and labled, The problem  is the fact that we no longer have an established social hierarchy within modern culture based on tribal values. Men and women are no longer rewarded by virtue of their value to a community. Its almost a hindrance for peoples in metropolitan environments to take time out to be a good role model and help the others around them out of good will. There are no longer strongly deffined Alpha or Beta roles for people to play. The Alphas of today are labeled assholes, and the betas codependents. The order of human hierarchy within the modern world is in chronic disarray.

I am trying in my own life to change all that. By working hard everyday to support a family. Joining a community and taking time to witness other peoples kind acts. Trying to be a good role model for the youth. All I ask in return is a chance to get it on with more than one partner in return.

Aren't you married, with children?

Thats the point of this thread, we are exploring polyamory as a legitimate path. My love of my Brood Mare should not exclude me being able to love other desiring women in the community.

[Wattlebird]

for what its worth, regardless of what type of relationships one chooses, trust and honesty are paramount.
If a couple mutually decide to see other people then the nature of the relationship is transparent.
But if a commitment is made to monogamy, and then there is sneaking around seeing other partners on the side, there is dishonesty in the relationship which is both individually and collectively damaging.

[Alive]

It is interesting that polyamorists on line say that their partners possible lovers need to be introduced to and Ok'd by the person / people they live with, as the new person could be hanging around their place a lot. So they say they aim to be honest rather than the traditional religious hidden cheating style.

I am intrigued GS what your amorous arrangements are?

[TylerDurden]

Polyamory is more usually a relationship whereby one or both members of a couple have sex with others, including with members of the same gender as the person. Simply having affairs with members of the opposite sex while married is just "playing away with a mistress", nothing more.

[goodsamaritan]

It is interesting that polyamorists on line say that their partners possible lovers need to be introduced to and Ok'd by the person / people they live with, as the new person could be hanging around their place a lot. So they say they aim to be honest rather than the traditional religious hidden cheating style.

I am intrigued GS what your amorous arrangements are?

I have a blog called www.pronatal.org  you can probably read in between the lines.

Women have a bigger say in all this talk.

[Dorothy]

It is interesting that polyamorists on line say that their partners possible lovers need to be introduced to and Ok'd by the person / people they live with, as the new person could be hanging around their place a lot. So they say they aim to be honest rather than the traditional religious hidden cheating style.

I am intrigued GS what your amorous arrangements are?

Sabertooth, on the same note, with your wife's history of possessiveness, what do you think her actual reaction will be when another woman is actually part of the picture instead of just flirting? Do you worry at all that you will lose your family and children by this experiment? A lot of people go along to try to make their partner happy, but then when it comes down to brass tacks things can get messy and emotions high if it's not all really honest and the real wish of both parties. When it comes down to children and the obviously wonderful relationship you have with your kids, that's when in our society things can get tricky no?

[goodsamaritan]

My very good guy friend 42, is a dedicated honest monogamous man...

His wife 46 started having a badminton affair.

They got into fights over this.

So now my friend no longer comes with his wife to badminton.  His wife no longer comes with her office staff for badminton and she has a new badminton group my friend is not privy to.

The Wife says to her husband that he's free to go get a girl of his own.  He doesn't like that.  He still gets to score with his wifey.

( Good guys finish last. )

They have 2 boys.  Wife is ligated / hysterectomied.

I just advised my friend to let her have her fun... as it is totally impossible for her to get pregnant in any way... no equipment... must be a surgical side effect.  She will be 50 soon.

[goodsamaritan]

Daniel is speaking from the point of view of someone who hasn't tried marriage and children yet... he's in "love." as Dorothy sees Daniel now.

I'm speaking from my experience and as an observant amateur social scientist observing what happens fast forward many decades later on... you should all try interviewing seniors in their 70s and 80s... they spill all the beans.

Women usually do not enable monogamy.  Most will at some point clamp down and shun sex (not just my wife)... in their 20s, in their 30s, in their 40s, in their 50s... and then that leaves men with no choice but to seek sex elsewhere... besides the fact that a very big percentage of young women I see around me have absolutely no respect for the wives of married men and pursue married men themselves. 

The selfish genes.  Both men and women are predators.