Author Topic: Vitalis on monogamy vs. polyamory  (Read 72193 times)

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Offline Dorothy

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Re: Vitalis on monogamy vs. polyamory
« Reply #50 on: June 22, 2012, 10:01:03 pm »
Imagine the other way around and the man comes home and says no I don't want to have sex with you and doesn't have sex with his wife for years on end. Imagine how rejected she would feel.

It seems a bit harsher for some reason. The 80/20 rule is turned upside down.







I'm trying to say that I've gone through it when my husband! My husband has gone through it with me. In general - I've gone through it a lot more with him than he has with me. Yes - issues can take years to get through. Over 20 years ANYONE is going to have issues come up that affect intimacy. We're talking emotions, stresses - LIFE! Men have emotions too. The trick is being able to get through them together.

Hasn't everyone seen a man with a gorgeous wife (that doesn't withhold sex) have an extramarital affair with someone you can't believe he would with a woman like THAT at home?! Men have the same intimacy and emotional needs as women. They want to be appreciated and loved. They "cheat" mostly because of emotional reasons. When either party is not listening and giving what the other person needs they are going to look somewhere else if they haven't set the foundation of loving, open, honest communication with a willingness of both parties to adapt and compromise. Someone pressing too hard for sex and someone pulling away from sex are a way of communicating that something is going on inside. Both are a cry out to the other person. 

I can understand your apparent anger Wodgina and how rejected you must feel. I've been there. The question is - do you play the blame game or do get to work?

I've found that it is very hard to change another person. The best way to change any relationship is with changing yourself because that's where you have control. Change one person in the relationship and the other person can't help but to change because it's a system. If one person is no longer participating in something, it can't continue in the same way. If the way you are being is continuing to give the same result for years that you are unhappy with, time to change something.


Offline Dorothy

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Re: Vitalis on monogamy vs. polyamory
« Reply #51 on: June 22, 2012, 10:04:47 pm »
GS, It sounds like you have been sadly disappointed in your marriage. It seems that you would rather be a faithful husband in a happy marriage if your wife were capable of receiving/returning your love for her.

Dorothy, in GS's case it might be that the fault does not lie with GS not understanding women.  Maybe his wife has never been capable of receiving/returning true love because of her family background. It does not look like she married him for the right reason in the first place.

I agree with you totally here Joy. That's why I suggest to GS that instead of trying to make millions he tries new ways to see if he can please his wife because she might simply not have the capability of having a loving relationship with him. If this is the case, what good is killing himself to make more money to please her? If he can't please her no matter what he tries perhaps it's not that he needs a polyamorous relationship - just a better primary relationship. Those skills can then be taken to someone else that can appreciate them more.

Offline wodgina

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Re: Vitalis on monogamy vs. polyamory
« Reply #52 on: June 22, 2012, 10:11:27 pm »
 
I'm trying to say that I've gone through it when my husband! My husband has gone through it with me. In general - I've gone through it a lot more with him than he has with me. Yes - issues can take years to get through. Over 20 years ANYONE is going to have issues come up that affect intimacy. We're talking emotions, stresses - LIFE! Men have emotions too. The trick is being able to get through them together.

Hasn't everyone seen a man with a gorgeous wife (that doesn't withhold sex) have an extramarital affair with someone you can't believe he would with a woman like THAT at home?! Men have the same intimacy and emotional needs as women. They want to be appreciated and loved. They "cheat" mostly because of emotional reasons. When either party is not listening and giving what the other person needs they are going to look somewhere else if they haven't set the foundation of loving, open, honest communication with a willingness of both parties to adapt and compromise. Someone pressing too hard for sex and someone pulling away from sex are a way of communicating that something is going on inside. Both are a cry out to the other person. 

I can understand your apparent anger Wodgina and how rejected you must feel. I've been there. The question is - do you play the blame game or do get to work?

I've found that it is very hard to change another person. The best way to change any relationship is with changing yourself because that's where you have control. Change one person in the relationship and the other person can't help but to change because it's a system. If one person is no longer participating in something, it can't continue in the same way. If the way you are being is continuing to give the same result for years that you are unhappy with, time to change something.



Um I'm not angry?  not sure what your talking about.



« Last Edit: June 22, 2012, 10:20:22 pm by wodgina »
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Offline Dorothy

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Re: Vitalis on monogamy vs. polyamory
« Reply #53 on: June 22, 2012, 10:13:18 pm »
Yes this sounds familiar - in my situation we are kind of swapped with our gender roles - my wife is getting out and trying earn the dollars, coming home late, working 7 days, only interested in talking about work, works on laptop in bed morning and night. I prefer to look after her and our kids - getting wife coffee in bed, dropping kids to school and back home, doing all the paperwork to keep up with my wife's investments, staying home in weekends to look after kids. We now have separate bedrooms, which is great so she can wake up at 3am and do some work on the laptop, and I can control my sleep environment. I am feeling more comfortable with my life now as I have a break from the incessant chit chat about work I get from my wife. I am now thinking of our arrangement for how good it is for all of us in my family to pursue our independent lives while enjoying the comfort and stability of a shared home. 

Stress. That sounds so stressful for both your wife and you. I'm sorry to hear that for you Alive. It's less stressful not to have to deal with your wive's stress in the middle of the night - but both of you sound like you need some time where the two of you get to be tender, quiet, relaxed together.

I've been in that constant massive adrenal overdrive that you can't stop like your wife is in now. It's a horror. It's a trap. Not being able to sleep because your running your adrenals into the ground with stress and coffee.

I'm glad that one of you is willing to be at home and give the kids some calmer energy. For some couples these days both couples are acting that scenario out together. Sometimes the wife is going through that and doesn't have the energy for sex because it doesn't help where the man want's to use sex as an outlet for his stressed out energy. That still might be the pattern with your wife. Women with draining adrenals aren't going to get helped from sex. If anything, it stops that hysteria that they are trying so desperately to keep up in the world and fight in a man's world.

If it makes any difference to you Alive, I bet that she really wants to slow down but she knows the moment she does she might collapse and be worthless. She's in her flight or fight reactions. So hard.

I feel for you.

Offline Dorothy

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Re: Vitalis on monogamy vs. polyamory
« Reply #54 on: June 22, 2012, 10:14:08 pm »

Um I'm not angry.





I'm sorry - you did say rejected - not angry. A lot of people that feel rejected also feel angry. I was angry as well as rejected... and sad too... so that was projection. My bad.


What do YOU feel?

Offline wodgina

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Re: Vitalis on monogamy vs. polyamory
« Reply #55 on: June 22, 2012, 10:26:13 pm »

I'm sorry - you did say rejected - not angry. A lot of people that feel rejected also feel angry. I was angry as well as rejected... and sad too... so that was projection. My bad.


What do YOU feel?

Like I'm on Oprah

but I think your read my post wrong or it was written poorly

“Integrity has no need of rules.”

Albert Camus

Offline Dorothy

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Re: Vitalis on monogamy vs. polyamory
« Reply #56 on: June 22, 2012, 10:43:22 pm »
Well - it's better than being on Jerry Springfield with a bunch of guys hating on women in general because they feel ______ fill in the blank about their own experiences with their particular woman(en). At least I personally prefer Oprah to Jerry. ;)


Offline Dorothy

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Re: Vitalis on monogamy vs. polyamory
« Reply #57 on: June 23, 2012, 04:14:15 am »
How do you like my new avatar? I just got my hair done. It's in honor of you Wodgina! ;D

Just call me The Raw Opraleo Woman!

Offline Dorothy

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Re: Vitalis on monogamy vs. polyamory
« Reply #58 on: June 23, 2012, 05:47:53 am »
Did you want to make a comment Tyler or just quote me?

Offline TylerDurden

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Re: Vitalis on monogamy vs. polyamory
« Reply #59 on: June 23, 2012, 05:53:11 am »
Err, I decided to  keep quiet after all, since everyone has the right to use whatever avatar they like -[ ,  unless it's a porn-photo or similiar, and, sadly, the above one doesn't qualify, though it makes me want to heave.  I'll delete the above post.
"During the last campaign I knew what was happening. You know, they mocked me for my foreign policy and they laughed at my monetary policy. No more. No more.
" Ron Paul.

Offline Dorothy

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Re: Vitalis on monogamy vs. polyamory
« Reply #60 on: June 23, 2012, 06:06:20 am »
I thought it was funny for the moment. I'm not planning on keeping it. If it would make you happy for me to take it down now I would gladly do that for you. I was making fun of myself.

It didn't give you even the slightest chuckle?

Offline Neone

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Re: Vitalis on monogamy vs. polyamory
« Reply #61 on: June 23, 2012, 07:03:48 am »
When somebody wont have sex with me, it is obviously a problem with THEM!  l)
That's not paleo.

Offline wodgina

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Re: Vitalis on monogamy vs. polyamory
« Reply #62 on: June 23, 2012, 07:07:47 am »
I thought it was funny for the moment. I'm not planning on keeping it. If it would make you happy for me to take it down now I would gladly do that for you. I was making fun of myself.

It didn't give you even the slightest chuckle?

I did laugh!
“Integrity has no need of rules.”

Albert Camus

Offline sabertooth

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Re: Vitalis on monogamy vs. polyamory
« Reply #63 on: June 23, 2012, 08:41:19 am »
I blame much of peoples troubles of developing healthy relationships on the idiotic culture propagated by the daytime TV drama, as well as other cultural messages that permeate society and seem to demand that people behave according to a phantasmal ideal of what sexual relationships should be.

I grew up being exposed to Jerry Springer, and Maury, as well as the soap operas that my Aunt watched as she baby sat me. The whole premise  of these shows is so pretentiously centered around the Idea that for a relationship to be normal there has to be complete fidelity.

Even the higher class, more cultured programs like Oprah seem to project some of the same idiocy, only it is presented with a little more prudish sophistication.

The other institutions such as the culture that makes up schools and churches also instill and facilitate many of false and pretentious ideas people are shackled by.

My Son is only five years old and just from being around a few other kids has learned that pink is a girls color, and he thinks its some how shameful that I will sometimes paint my toe nails pink. He is at an impressionable age and its amazing what they can pick up from the limited information they receive.

He asked his Mom why she was putting on makeup the other night, and she was explaining to him that she was going to go visit her other boyfriend. Later that night after story time, he turned to me and asked " what is love" I told him some sappy line about how ' love is our gift to the world then he said out of the blue " well, I love two girls". Its seems that even though we are very careful about not being to explicit while talking in front of the children, that our son has still been able to pick up enough information, to begin to start thinking about these things. The next day he asked his mother "what is love" and she told him it was a feeling that people have for each other.

We are trying to educate our children better and stand up to all the BS propagated by the culture, so they wont have to grow up with all the hang ups that are forced upon many people of this day and age.

A man who makes a beast of himself, forgets the pain of being a man.

Offline sabertooth

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Re: Vitalis on monogamy vs. polyamory
« Reply #64 on: June 23, 2012, 08:51:54 am »
I learned much more about the nature of relationships by watching Meerkat manor than I ever did watching the human dramas on TV. The Meerkat society is free of the idiotic cultural influences of modern human society and so they interact in accordance with their primal nature.

Check it out its really good entertainment.
Meerkat Manor - S1-E1 - Part 1
A man who makes a beast of himself, forgets the pain of being a man.

Offline TylerDurden

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Re: Vitalis on monogamy vs. polyamory
« Reply #65 on: June 23, 2012, 02:47:25 pm »
It didn't give you even the slightest chuckle?
  Hardly. Now take DJR-81's  previous avatar of Sean Connery in a red bikini from the film Zardoz, that  made me chuckle every time. It's just that I hate decadent, modern pop-culture as it caters to the lowest common denominator. Well, it could have been worse, it could have been a photo of Kim Kardashian or Jordan/Katie Price or one of the former Spice Girls or Paris Hilton  etc.

Anyway, ignore my take on this. I'll just concentrate on the words, instead.
"During the last campaign I knew what was happening. You know, they mocked me for my foreign policy and they laughed at my monetary policy. No more. No more.
" Ron Paul.

Offline goodsamaritan

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Re: Vitalis on monogamy vs. polyamory
« Reply #66 on: June 23, 2012, 09:18:57 pm »
GS, It sounds like you have been sadly disappointed in your marriage. It seems that you would rather be a faithful husband in a happy marriage if your wife were capable of receiving/returning your love for her.

Dorothy, in GS's case it might be that the fault does not lie with GS not understanding women.  Maybe his wife has never been capable of receiving/returning true love because of her family background. It does not look like she married him for the right reason in the first place.

I agree with you totally here Joy. That's why I suggest to GS that instead of trying to make millions he tries new ways to see if he can please his wife because she might simply not have the capability of having a loving relationship with him. If this is the case, what good is killing himself to make more money to please her? If he can't please her no matter what he tries perhaps it's not that he needs a polyamorous relationship - just a better primary relationship. Those skills can then be taken to someone else that can appreciate them more.

Not disappointed with my marriage. 

My wife is the sexiest and youthful thing I see every day.
And she plays the harp every day.
And she earns her own big enough money as a corporate executive.
And I've got great in-laws.

As for my children... I'm quite satisfied with meeting my personal quota.
And with my healing abilities and raw paleo diet knowledge from you guys... no fear in parenting.

My parents had their own big shortcoming (not my fault), but it truly disappointed my wife's clan.
The medical system betrayed us with 3 c-sections, drugging my wife on the 1st baby for heart problems.
And offered me no hope when I was sick and almost killed our son when he was sick, almost killed my brother.

So we've been through a lot... I didn't expect many of these ups and downs and curves in life and the reality of human sexuality... in fact I first read the book "Sperm Wars" and "Etiquettes for Mistresses" from my mother in law where those books helped her accept the reality that her husband had his own bastard while still remaining the good man that he is.  It's just the way things are.

Real female sexuality I saw first hand with my wife, my sister, my sister in law, my close lady friends, my own grandmother, my employees... and many other women.  The reality is that women play an active role in getting the best sperm / genes for their offspring, plus getting men to do things for them... it's just the way things are.

I was raised / sheltered in the idealism my mother dreamt of and which my father's side had actually done... they were the good boys and girls.

My pro-life volunteerism made me realize the grave danger to our own personal survival / family tree survival with the mostly complete contraceptive mentality propagated to most human beings.  That the medical system of birthing itself was not on our side.

These truth realizations had made me proactive in changing course for the continuation of my bloodline.

Getting into pro-life, real healing, being able to cure the incurables and learning raw paleo diet made me much much more awake than I had dreamed of.  And this is not disappointing at all.

« Last Edit: June 23, 2012, 09:49:40 pm by goodsamaritan »
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Offline Ioanna

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Re: Vitalis on monogamy vs. polyamory
« Reply #67 on: June 23, 2012, 09:51:59 pm »
  Hardly. Now take DJR-81's  previous avatar of Sean Connery in a red bikini from the film Zardoz, that  made me chuckle every time. It's just that I hate decadent, modern pop-culture as it caters to the lowest common denominator. Well, it could have been worse, it could have been a photo of Kim Kardashian or Jordan/Katie Price or one of the former Spice Girls or Paris Hilton  etc.

Anyway, ignore my take on this. I'll just concentrate on the words, instead.

that was someone else whose name is escaping me at the moment... he lives/lived in austin, tx... yon something?.... went to visit gs...

context td ;D  the inside joke wasn't meant for me either, but still worth a chuckle
« Last Edit: June 23, 2012, 10:08:03 pm by Ioanna »

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Re: Vitalis on monogamy vs. polyamory
« Reply #68 on: June 23, 2012, 09:55:25 pm »
Yon Yonson. Really, he went to visit GS? cool, he's a good guy.

Offline Ioanna

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Re: Vitalis on monogamy vs. polyamory
« Reply #69 on: June 23, 2012, 10:01:26 pm »
here it is... and if anyone would like to see sean connery in red, that's in here too :)

http://www.rawpaleodietforum.com/personals/yon-and-gs-meet-up-you-should-too!/

Offline TylerDurden

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Re: Vitalis on monogamy vs. polyamory
« Reply #70 on: June 24, 2012, 12:28:29 am »
Yes, it was yon yonson, my mistake.
"During the last campaign I knew what was happening. You know, they mocked me for my foreign policy and they laughed at my monetary policy. No more. No more.
" Ron Paul.

Offline bachcole

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Re: Vitalis on monogamy vs. polyamory
« Reply #71 on: June 24, 2012, 01:00:07 am »
Human beings are the intersection between spirit and matter.  Yes, treat your body as though it were the result of millions of years of physical evolution.  But treat your spirit as though it is eternal and One with all beings.
"There is only One Being in Reality and it is the Universal Soul."  -- Meher Baba --

Offline Dorothy

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Re: Vitalis on monogamy vs. polyamory
« Reply #72 on: June 25, 2012, 10:09:25 am »
I learned much more about the nature of relationships by watching Meerkat manor than I ever did watching the human dramas on TV. The Meerkat society is free of the idiotic cultural influences of modern human society and so they interact in accordance with their primal nature.

Check it out its really good entertainment.
Meerkat Manor - S1-E1 - Part 1

Sabertooth - what did you learn about sexuality and sexual roles from these cute little creatures exactly? I watched it, but all I could figure out that it might be was to make sure if you're the alpha male to preen your alpha female a lot or you won't get any. As for everyone else - forget about having sex. ;)

The difference between you Sabertooth and most of the men so far is that it was your woman who initiated the whole thing! She talks to you about it and you're doing it together as a couple. The two of you also seem from what you say to have a pretty good sex life to begin with. You're not leaving someone at home who probably would rather have something entirely different for herself than what she is left with. The TWO of you are trying out a new lifestyle together.

I hope it works for both of you. You are so very spot on that these things are ingrained from very early on. That's often the problem with trying new lifestyles as a pioneer. You have to constantly be fighting your own programming. Also, the culture you live in does not support you and can create problems. From earlier generations, hippies didn't have a general mature culture to help that to survive and "swingers" often just ending up with a different mate as a product of their experiments. It takes a great deal of energy to have more than one primary mate and/or family and jealousy is taught to us subliminally from very early ages. It sounds to me like you and your wife are working with the hand you were dealt to the best of your abilities and using it to explore your conditioning and try out new ways of living.

In the past it was often part of sexist culture that considered women as property to have one brood woman at home and keep another mistress separately. Both were ways of controlling and owning the woman with very little autonomy or say on behalf of the woman of what SHE wanted. The women at home knew their men were not available to them completely emotionally or sexually but they had no way to leave as they couldn't make their own livings and there was no way of living that was any better to be found in those societies. "Marriage" was originally the selling of a woman from the father to another man - a social and financial transaction. It was accepted that the man got to do whatever he wanted -- but not the wife. Totally double standard. Lots of hiding, lying and silent suffering. Women learned to just suck it up and live with it. What you are doing seems nothing like this.

My suggestion (if you are not already doing and planning it) would be that your wife and you have frequent open and honest discussions where you talk about how it's all going and any old programming that might be coming up. It's this kind of intimacy that to me would be what would be most likely to carry you through in the face of potential judgment from others and your own programming. Real emotional intimacy is more important than sexual intimacy anyway, because sex and sexual desire comes and goes and changes but a history of communication and emotional intimacy can be a lifetime foundation.

Again - best of luck to you and your wife!

Offline Dorothy

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Re: Vitalis on monogamy vs. polyamory
« Reply #73 on: June 26, 2012, 12:48:37 am »
Hey Tyler - I was thinking that since I tortured you so with Oprah for the last few days that I'd let you pick my next celebrity! It also won't be permanent - just for some fun. You do know what that is right? ;) This is your big opportunity to prove to me that you have a sense of humor. Snark.

So, who's it going to be Tyler?

Offline TylerDurden

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Re: Vitalis on monogamy vs. polyamory
« Reply #74 on: June 26, 2012, 03:16:44 am »
http://www.horror-shop.com/out/pictures/generated/product/1/350_600_75/2616_13103_medusa_lisa_halloween_dekoration_fasching_ausstattung_theaterbedarf_buehnenbau_totenschaedel_girlanden_horror_gr.jpg

http://www.pameladellicolli.com/store/images/uploads/pdc_medusa_comp.jpg

Incidentally, the Medusa is seen as a symbol of feminism, so I don't think you'll be too bothered re the above. Point is, the 2 photos are horrifying but still tasteful
 despite that.

(I'm currently having computer trouble where I  consider myself lucky if I can access my computer for half an hour after trying to turn it on unsuccessfully c. a dozen times over a few hours.
"During the last campaign I knew what was happening. You know, they mocked me for my foreign policy and they laughed at my monetary policy. No more. No more.
" Ron Paul.

 

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