Vitalis on monogamy vs. polyamory

[Dorothy]

http://www.horror-shop.com/out/pictures/generated/product/1/350_600_75/2616_13103_medusa_lisa_halloween_dekoration_fasching_ausstattung_theaterbedarf_buehnenbau_totenschaedel_girlanden_horror_gr.jpg

http://www.pameladellicolli.com/store/images/uploads/pdc_medusa_comp.jpg

Incidentally, the Medusa is seen as a symbol of feminism, so I don't think you'll be too bothered re the above. Point is, the 2 photos are horrifying but still tasteful
 despite that.

(I'm currently having computer trouble where I  consider myself lucky if I can access my computer for half an hour after trying to turn it on unsuccessfully c. a dozen times over a few hours.

I'm glad your computer is at least working enough to play along Tyler. Hope you out of computer hell soon.

The first image was funny! (imho)
So everyone - what do you think of my even newer hairstyle? A bit retro  no?

Btw, I think of myself more of a humanist than a feminist.

[cherimoya_kid]

The first image was funny! (imho)
So everyone - what do you think of my even newer hairstyle? A bit retro  no?

The glowing eyes are a bit scary.

[Joy2012]

Dorothy, I like the Oprah photo. What is wrong with it? I guess I missed the humor point?
The present photo is a horror. I do not want to look at it.

[Adora]

Dororthy, I love it. I think it is funny and cool, and not scary at all. I'm a big fan of Medusa, and the mona Lisa's OK. I wish your  husband would take a nice sun shine on your smile pic of you, and when I get to Texas I want him to take a picture of me too. I hate taking pictures of me. I do them all wrong.

[Dorothy]

I think I like this idea of putting up pictures the way others here see me. First Wodg implied that I was contributing to the conversation in the likes of Oprah - hence the Oprah pictures looking like she was about to pound into a cocky diatribe - and I loved her hair! But Tyler didn't get the joke and hated it so I asked him pick the next one. I thought it was very funny! Especially the idea of Mona Lisa as Medusa. Actually - it's not a bad depiction of a side of me. Which totally redeemed Tyler in my eyes as a man of wit and sarcasm - two very admirable traits in my book. 

Joy - since this picture is not to your liking (it is horrific - if one isn't laughing) maybe I should ask you to pick my next "celebrity" if you care to. Please make it fun! If it is depicts some aspect of this strange conversation we've all been having here like the last two - it would be a bonus. Are you up for it?

If Joy's not up for it maybe Cherimoya can be the runner up as it doesn't sound like he wants to have to look at it for long either.

[Dorothy]

Dororthy, I love it. I think it is funny and cool, and not scary at all. I'm a big fan of Medusa, and the mona Lisa's OK. I wish your  husband would take a nice sun shine on your smile pic of you, and when I get to Texas I want him to take a picture of me too. I hate taking pictures of me. I do them all wrong.

Adora, I think we're a lot alike! I like the Mona Lisa and love mythology - and putting them together I think was genius on the part of Tyler.

My husband - it's like the cobblers children having no shoes. We have NO pictures of ourselves! I bought him a little point and shoot so I might be able to get a few pictures. We got a wide-angle for selling the house - so we have some great pictures of our backyard and chickens now! We went on vacations where he took pictures of everything except me - you know - art pictures. I was the spec with the backpack at the Grand Canyon. Then I insisted he actually take some shots of me in Mexico - but - then he takes them on slides for the better quality so I saw them once.

If you come and visit that way we BOTH might get some shots. So, when is your next trip to Austin? That way I'll know how long I have to lose the extra poundage and get into shape. I'm still trying to get those "before" shots done before I become the "after". hee hee.

[Adora]

Dororthy, I would love to go to Austin. I don't like any part of Texas I've seen, but Ausitin is supposed to be beautiful and artsy. It will be at lest one year, hopefully, we will booth look spectacular. It's nice to be captured on film that way. Then, we can put all of the pics on the site and give a "tour" of our time together. 

[Dorothy]

Dororthy, I would love to go to Austin. I don't like any part of Texas I've seen, but Ausitin is supposed to be beautiful and artsy. It will be at lest one year, hopefully, we will booth look spectacular. It's nice to be captured on film that way. Then, we can put all of the pics on the site and give a "tour" of our time together. 

We'll see how much I'm willing to put on the internet when the time comes. I'm pretty shy/private when it comes to pictures on the net. But, we will definitely have fun taking them!

Btw - Wodg made some outrageous statements on another thread so now my picture is of Muriel Siebert.

[sabertooth]

Sabertooth - what did you learn about sexuality and sexual roles from these cute little creatures exactly? I watched it, but all I could figure out that it might be was to make sure if you're the alpha male to preen your alpha female a lot or you won't get any. As for everyone else - forget about having sex.

I know Meerkat society is not an exact microcosm of primitive human society but there are enough similarities to make a correlation. What I do claim is that there is much more we can learn about proper sexual roles from The whiskers than we can from most other human players on TV show drama. Human Dramas are so scripted and untrue to life. The sitcoms, soap operas, Springer, reality shows,  etc give such a distorted view of sexuality.

That was just the first episode, if you watch the series you can see the whole dynamic of their interpersonal relationships unfold. They love each other and care for each other in a way that is almost human .

Zaphod may be in love with flower and he is the very protective dominate male of the clan, but even he will pair off with an other beta male and go off on shameless sexpeditions into forbidden territory. He has an Ex named Lola that he runs off to see on occasion.

Flowers daughters will also sneak off and find a lover if they have an opportunity. They find a love nest away from the group and they even cuddle after sex.   

[Dorothy]

Ah - it's a whiskers soap opera of sorts!  Sometimes I think animals can be more  human and humane that most humans! Totally get it now that you explained the longer "drama" aspects. I understand what you are saying about the purity of actions and emotions too.

I've always loved meerkats and prairie dogs so anyone that wants to be like one is a-ok in my book. 

[goodsamaritan]

All I see is the selfish gene and sperm wars in these animals.

Sex being sex needs variety to harden the species and spread farther. 

Inbreeding makes for weak children.  There is vigor in cross breeding.  Cockfighters know this.

[Dorothy]

In the chicken species there is a desire for there to be only one cock per group of hens that's why cocks can be pushed to kill each other off in an arena. Cock "breeders" are like dog breeders - making something unnatural. In chickens the only way that more than one rooster gets to live in the group is if all the roosters understand that one is dominant and that is the one that gets all the females he wants. The others don't get any or just can sneak some or get the main rooster's leftovers if the main rooster lets him. Cock fighting is barbaric and cruel because in nature roosters will work it out with each other without having to really hurt each other. In our sick societies humans seem to like watching cruelty. I don't think that's natural either.  If you take a fighting dog or a rooster and train it back to psychological normalcy for the species it goes right back to acting like a good citizen for that species.

Humans are not chickens or meerkats - but if you want to go about picking an animal to try to live like the meerkat at least shows a little bit of emotional attachment from what Sabertooth said - whereas the chickens not at all sexually. The rooster sexually can destroy his favorite female and most hens will try to run from the rooster. He's only good for fighting off predators (watch dog) and helping to show you where food is in the view of the hen - the sex is something they have to do when he's around but get bitten and scratched up and lose their feathers and get worn out in the process. Chickens get the sperm primarily from the one strongest rooster when living naturally as do the meerkats.

Are you trying to advocate someone choosing who can mate with whom GS - like a government - because that's basically what cock breeders do to create the most unnaturally aggressive roosters they can. Or... are you saying that you would like to put all the men into an arena to fight to see which one male gets to mate? That would be more natural I guess - but pretty barbaric. I  know paleo is supposed to be about going back to earlier times to figure out healthy ways to live and eat and all, but if that's part of it - count me out. Gladiator movies are not my cup of tea.

[sabertooth]

What I am trying to point out, is that the lower primal drives in the more socially evolved creatures, have taken on a higher function that goes way beyond the mere instinct to breed. These behavioral adaptions that involve structuring a sexual hierarchy and taking on societal roles are at the foundation of the evolution of a species that has advanced beyond the limited brutality of the Cock.

In establishing a society, the more highly socially evolved species are able to lift each other up and provide companionship, friendship, protection and the creature comforts {that stem from}, but go beyond the base instincts to procreate. This adds such a greater dynamic to the whole scope of life and was totally paramount to the evolution of our own human society. Without the ability to form deeper more meaningful relationships, with those we live and breed with, we would be not much more socially evolved than fighting cocks.

[Dorothy]

I appreciate what you are saying here Sabertooth. For me monogamy has been the ultimate expression of it. I understand that it might not be what works for everyone -- still, the extreme intimacy, deep loyalty, commitment and intense energy that I've had with monogamy I can't imagine getting any other way. I have no desire to be with anyone else or to water down the relationship by diverting that one strong river. Friendship is another order and for that there are needs and desires that shift and change and casual sexual relationships I think would fit into that category - but when monogamy really works it's a treasure that I feel the need to guard and defend. General relationships provide companionship, friendship, protection and creature comforts too - but monogamy goes to another level that uses our big brains and social evolvement to create a relationship like no other that opens up channels and learning of oneself beyond more casual or temporary relationships in my experience. Of course, everyone is different and I think few have seen a monogamous relationship really work so might not have experience with them - but they are possible. Hitting it right with a monogamous relationship is a little like finding your calling in life. You know if it's right or not. The problem is that so many people have such bad marriages and our societies make good marriages so hard that it seems like fully committed monogamous relationships aren't possible - like we weren't "meant" to be in them. All I can say is that I know that I was definitely meant to be in one and wouldn't trade it for anything. 

[sabertooth]

I appreciate what you are saying here Sabertooth. For me monogamy has been the ultimate expression of it. I understand that it might not be what works for everyone -- still, the extreme intimacy, deep loyalty, commitment and intense energy that I've had with monogamy I can't imagine getting any other way. I have no desire to be with anyone else or to water down the relationship by diverting that one strong river. . 

I have not yet found the type of love outside my relationship with the mother of my children, that would make polyamory a better alternative to monogamy personally. The trouble is, I don't think I have ever been with a monogamous woman, so may never know if monogamy is the right path for me to take. My lady was always attracted to other men and I would catch her writing love letters to my friends, relatives, strangers , etc; so I thought nothing of Being naturally attracted to other women as well. I had always entertained the Idea of perhaps finding a lover on the side, and have always wanted to be loved by an other woman physically and emotionally: though was never wholly into the Idea of being openly polyamorous . To me it always seemed more socially acceptable to be a hypocrite who claimed to be monogamous while having secrete affairs, than to be openly polyamorous and having  to deal with being judged as a philanderer. My mother and father both pretended to be in monogamous relationships for years while having lovers on the side, this as well as the common occurring of divorce seemed to be the norm for many people I knew while growing up.

In truth it wasn't my decision to be in an open relationship, my other half was the one who decided she wanted another Man. Deep down I think she is looking to find something she can never fully attain, but such is her nature, love is an elusive creature . I am just going along with her in this journey, because I want her to feel loved and to be free to peruse what she thinks will make her happy.

Having made the commitment to become uncommitted, I refuse to live the type of life of sordid secrecy that my parents lived, which caused me to be so confused and jaded about things as an adolescent. So if we are going to be a poly couple then I want to discover ways to make it work that will lead us both to happiness. God help us through the valley of sin without completely warping our children in the process.

Its all new territory and all these musings are just a way to cope with the uncertainty while being optimistic.

[Alive]

Your children will be fine,  as long as you are doing this for good reasons and are all happy and having fun most of the time.

My wife suggested I have a secret affair rather than bother her!

[Dorothy]

Sabertooth - you are travelling an ethical path that will not necessarily be easier - but if there is one thing I am certain of, it is that you are teaching your children how to be strong in the face of a hypocritical society and gain more congruity for themselves. They will see you and their mother doing your best to be honest and find the best loving relationships possible. You are taking a difficult situation with your wife and making it into the best outcome you can. You are bringing things out of the darkness into the light. This is never bad for children. It's usually the dark hidden things that do the most real damage.

I think the hypocrisy, lying, cheating and sorrows that get shoved down below the surface are a big part of why so many people turn out so unhappy in this world. Those are the things that make the most scars. Those are the kinds of things that you and you are trying to work through/heal so you won't pass them on to your kids.

Your children will most likely become honest mavericks that do great things instead of mediocre automatons if they catch onto even a little of your sincerity and smarts.

[Dorothy]

My wife suggested I have a secret affair rather than bother her!

Jeesh! Does this mean that she is already cheating on you and not wanting to be bothered about that either? Did that hurt when she said that? If even a friend said something like that I'd be hurt. That's like saying not only do I not give a shit about you as a sexual partner - but even as a person - as I don't want to know about you or what you do!

[goodsamaritan]

Your children will be fine,  as long as you are doing this for good reasons and are all happy and having fun most of the time.

My wife suggested I have a secret affair rather than bother her!

More likely because her sexuality has been deactivated rather than she has her own lover.  Sometimes it just takes time and another woman meeting your sexual needs for a woman to be reactivated sexually.

Go for it.

[goodsamaritan]

Sabertooth,

I've read cuckold stories and cuckold forums.  It turns me on but i'd rather be the cuckolder than the cuckoldee.

Just wishing your wife get a "bull" who has tons more money than you do so he eventually helps out financially when his child arrives.

That extra money could come in handy and you wont feel so bad raising some other man's child.

[Dorothy]

More likely because her sexuality has been deactivated rather than she has her own lover.  Sometimes it just takes time and another woman meeting your sexual needs for a woman to be reactivated sexually.

Go for it.

When Alive said that his wife spends lots of nights late at the office the first thing that goes through any woman's mind if that thing is said about a man is - yeah - right "working" late. Maybe being forced to lie and have an affair will "reactivate" the relationship and maybe it won't - but I wouldn't want it. I'd just leave and find someone who didn't need me to "activate" them by cheating on them. It's all so manipulative. I wouldn't want a person who didn't want me without others wanting me. Eventually no one will want either my husband except each other because we have loved each other so long and dearly.

But I'd agree with you GS - if he wants to stay in the relationship like a woman would with a spouse that doesn't want to have sex and doesn't seem to care much what he does as long as he is taking care of the kids in order to be able to spend time with his kids, keep his house, his lifestyle and the wife doesn't care what he does and is still willing to support him - why not go for it? Doesn't sound like he has much to lose - except the financial aspect.

I personally would want more. I'd either insist that my partner let me please them or try to find a better match for myself.  A loveless marriage is a drain. Why do you stay with a sexy woman that won't have sex with you GS? I still don't understand you. And don't tell me it's because she plays the harp because that one I don't believe - unless she's really that good at it that you can't leave her music? You seem to make enough money on your own not to have to live in a loveless marriage. 

I don't understand what's holding all you men to continue to live with women that don't want to love you? Money, so that you can see your kids everyday? Or is it that you love your wives even if they don't love you back? Why polyamory when it doesn't sound like a lot of you have even uniamory (yes, I made that word up).

No wonder y'all want polyamory - you want love!
People need love.
Just be honest about it. It's not a belief system that polyamory is better than monogamy - just that monogamy has failed with the particular woman you chose. It's the next best thing.

As long as everyone is in agreement that their primary relationship isn't working then there are only a few choices I guess: 1. romance your woman until she lets you give her pleasure, 2. stick it out in joylessness and frustration, 3. get divorced and try again with someone else, 4. invite others into your life being open and honest or 5. live the lies and separation that having affairs makes.

We're not talking about polyamorous vs monogamy as seen when going into relationships in general and starting out - but in reaction to monogamous relationships that a group of men wanted to make work but that didn't. It's a different perspective.

[sabertooth]

Your children will most likely become honest mavericks that do great things instead of mediocre automatons if they catch onto even a little of your sincerity and smarts.

That is at the heart of what I am tring to accomplish. To break the cycle trans generational deception so that our children can move forward into this new age without much of the baggage that the current generation is burdened with. I will always remember being lied to and deceived constantly as a child growing up. Being sheltered from the truth by the lies that the people around me lived. It all seems such a pity.

Sabertooth,

Just wishing your wife get a "bull" who has tons more money than you do so he eventually helps out financially when his child arrives.

That extra money could come in handy and you wont feel so bad raising some other man's child.

You have just told of my Wife's total fantasy. She is dreaming that this guy will get a good engineering job out of state and be able to help us move to where he lives and he will help us get established in a nice home.{if only she can trick him into knocking her up}. Its unlikely to turn out so well, but his family is loaded so its hard to say if there will be any economic benefit to this risky business.

[sabertooth]

We're not talking about polyamorous vs monogamy as seen when going into relationships in general and starting out - but in reaction to monogamous relationships that a group of men wanted to make work but that didn't. It's a different perspective.

It more of a cultural condition that makes one attempt monogamy as the first choice and not something our inherent nature demands of us . All the fairy tails, and stories of romance, the culture of marriage, puritanical heritage, and they lived happily ever after Walt Disney movies, is just so pervasive that many people who get together are just not aware of how to make polyamory a viable alternative in such a society.

Do young people today have any decent and upstanding poly role models?

There is a lot of celebrity sleaze and gossip about the spoiled class and their numerous affairs. But where are heroes of today, who work hard and support themselves as well as making time to honorably and passionately love more than one person. Most stories that involve that kind of love are considered indecent and so are relegated to pornography or cheap romance novels. We have people like Charley Sheen who play the shameless womanizer and booze hound and give the polyamorous lifestyle a really piggish image.

I guess in the comic books there are some good examples. Heroes like batman have more than one crush, Batman is obviously has the hots for cat woman, and to a lesser extent poison ivy. Spiderman has Mary Jane and Felicia, he is constantly looking to date either one of them. These are the heroes my son Idealizes and he is very aware of the affectionate nature between his heroes and the ladies. But Cartoons are not really the best example for the younger generation, so I will ask the forum.

Who today is a good example of a poly man or woman? Someone who is decent and loving and would be a good role model for the children to look up to.

Anyone know of historical figures that could give polyamory a more positive image?

[goodsamaritan]

Examples:

http://www.pro-polygamy.com/

http://tlc.howstuffworks.com/tv/sister-wives

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ramon_Revilla,_Sr.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Estrada

http://www.islamawareness.net/Polygamy/fatwa004.html

http://www.pronatal.org/2007/03/19/polygamous-akbar-family-husband-and-all-wives-to-dominate-elections-in-basilan/

http://www.pronatal.org/2007/11/15/representative-akbar-killed-in-congress-bombing/

http://youtu.be/d4yjrDSvze0 (Polyandry care of National Geographic) recommended for those fans of depopulation.

http://msmistress.wordpress.com/2007/04/28/etiquette-for-mistresses/

[goodsamaritan]

But I'd agree with you GS - if he wants to stay in the relationship like a woman would with a spouse that doesn't want to have sex and doesn't seem to care much what he does as long as he is taking care of the kids in order to be able to spend time with his kids, keep his house, his lifestyle and the wife doesn't care what he does and is still willing to support him - why not go for it? Doesn't sound like he has much to lose - except the financial aspect.

I personally would want more. I'd either insist that my partner let me please them or try to find a better match for myself.  A loveless marriage is a drain. Why do you stay with a sexy woman that won't have sex with you GS? I still don't understand you. And don't tell me it's because she plays the harp because that one I don't believe - unless she's really that good at it that you can't leave her music? You seem to make enough money on your own not to have to live in a loveless marriage. 

Let me help you understand our cultural differences.

- sexless does not mean love less

- marriage means more than just sex.  There's children, there's in laws, there's family and extended family. 

- if she became fat and ugly and unattractive I would still love my wife because I made a commitment to her and my children... and the children need us as parents and grandparents and great grand parents.

- of course if my wife was fat and ugly and unattractive, she wouldn't be such a tease and cause me blue balls every day...

- my philosophy in life is the purpose of life is to make more life, I believe the tradition of a rock solid family and extended family is a good recipe for reproductive success... with bastards on the side... are bonuses and insurances in this game of life. ( as stated in the book Sperm Wars )

- culturally in our culture, mistressing is too common and expected... what is frowned upon are divorces and abandonment, especially those who abandon just because the wife is no longer sexual... that is really really mean and nasty.  Abandoning wife and children may mean starvation and death.

Because there is no government big brother mandating and insuring survival in our country.  There is no government apparatus to enforce child support or give EBT cards to mothers or unemployed in need.  We have to stick together to survive... the old fashioned way... United we stand... divided we fall.

In the big cities there are just too many women because of migration for jobs.  The women have learned to share in good men.  Where a good man at least has a job and some money.... or he has good genes.  Many men are jobless drunkards womanizers.  So get a man who has a job, is not a drunkard, will give child support.  Or hear your biological clock tick away and be childless... a fate many women refuse to accept.

There are 2 types of reproductive women... the #1 wife type... and the mistress types.  The mistress types know their place and are immensely attracted to married, committed men, and know their place and follow the ettiquetes for mistresses book.

Culturally, our Muslim brothers and sisters in our own country and cities are enshrined in law that they can have up to 4 wives and can marry legally beginning 16 years old.  And we can see so much harmony and strength in their families.  They have to be strong because they themselves have to endure tribal / family wars... woe to those with weak families.

Culturally, we love children and family... many here are not in the "me" only divorce culture.

So you find out your man has a mistress?  Welcome to the club where literally all worthy good men have one.

Some men also get by with just prostitution when their wives cannot deliver.   Some #1 wives prefer this.