Vitalis on monogamy vs. polyamory

[goodsamaritan]

He has a monster that measures over ten inches, they have been looking for something that fit, Magnums are too tight and fall right off. I guess we will have to special order some online.

  shocked

Straight out of those cuckold stories. 

My maternal grandma confided in me that she used a cervical cap on my grandpa without telling grandpa.

This is why she always said yes to sex every time he snapped his fingers. "I never say no..."

(or maybe she being the #2 wife / mistress tries harder)

You might wish to explore how a cervical cap on your little wife will survive a 10 inch monster going so deep.

[TylerDurden]

One thing that has been pointed out by more honest Asians is that the asian women in white men/asian women couples are generally just gold-diggers, the more decent asian women generally marrying their own kind. On my side, I recall one acquaintance, in his 60s, who married a Vietnamese woman in order to break into the Vietnamese market(they required one partner in each company to be a Vietnamese citizen), and the deal was that he left her his house in his will, which he did. Some however tend to backtrack on such deals, and this sort of thing can be the result:-

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2167831/Married-pensioner-77-beaten-death-younger-Thai-lover-changed-leave-340-000.html

[Dorothy]

GS - I'm worn out. Maybe another day I can go plucked sentence by sentence with you but not today.

I just can't keep up with what you say since it makes so little sense to me and this is taking so much of my time. This is a holiday for me.

You think HIV and AIDS are frauds. I have friends that have died from it so trying to tell me they are frauds ....  I'm pretty much silenced there. You don't use condoms with prostitutes and aren't at all concerned about spreading STDs.
You think cancer diagnoses are frauds too. I think that standard cancer treatments are ineffective and dangerous - but why the diagnoses?

My head hurts. Maybe tomorrow I'll have the ability to deal with such statements.

[goodsamaritan]

Dorothy... don't go around making accusations and inferring what I write about my general observations about sociology and my personal life.  There's a legal word for that. Libel? Slander? or what other?

---------

Many cancer diagnosis are frauds.

a lump is a lump.

lumps and cysts should not at all costs need to be pricked to see if they are "cancerous" or not, malignant or not.

the holistic cancer cures will cure the cysts whether malignant or not.

many cysts are made by the body to shield the body from very bad poisons / toxins.

pricking that / BIOPSY to get a "sample" to analyze for malignancy is the #1 mistake the medical profession makes.

This allows that toxic / poison to escape and pollute the body when the body isn't ready for it.

And the patient goes into crisis.

BIOPSY is the green light the medical mafia wants to make "positive" so they can sell their profitable cancer "treatments".

[jessica]

dorothy perhaps you can agree that there is not this vs that and perhaps both ways of having relationships with others are acceptable?  i am not one to be in a non monogamous relationship, however i can respect that others are, and do believe that there can be happiness when mature people are clear about expectations and responsible enough to seek out ways of being in relationships where everyone is fulfilled physically and mentally

[Dorothy]

Dorothy... don't go around making accusations and inferring what I write about my general observations about sociology and my personal life.  There's a legal word for that. Libel? Slander? or what other?

Huh? Again - I totally do not understand you! What accusations and what did I infer? You are so totally confusing!

You are questioning whether biopsies should be done. Totally agree with that. You are saying that cancer should be treated with alternatives whether a lump or cancer also I agree with you. What I don't agree is with you saying that all cancer diagnoses are frauds. What exactly does that mean? That the person doesn't actually have cancer when they are diagnosed? Are you saying that the person with AIDS or HIV doesn't have it because you disagree with how it should be treated?

You confuse me no end.

[Dorothy]

dorothy perhaps you can agree that there is not this vs that and perhaps both ways of having relationships with others are acceptable?  i am not one to be in a non monogamous relationship, however i can respect that others are, and do believe that there can be happiness when mature people are clear about expectations and responsible enough to seek out ways of being in relationships where everyone is fulfilled physically and mentally

I know that a lot of words have gone about here Jessica and it would take a lot to read all of them - but I agree with you and have already stated it. Stepping outside of cultural programming - whatever culture - is what I have been saying is the way I like to approach things.

[goodsamaritan]

the word "Cancer" and the word "Aids" are all encompassing word creations that strike fear in the people who believe them.

When many are just various symptoms and should be called by their varying symptoms only.

so "liver cancer" should just be liver with a tumor or cirrhotic liver.

or "kidney cancer" should be just kidney with a tumor and it is bleeding.

----

As for monogamy aspirations.  I'm with you there Dorothy.  I just report what I see on the ground on how monogamy is really practiced.

As for the monogamy in the USA, I'd rather call it "serial polygamy".

Where in other cultures, they practice "concurrent polygamy".

Hey, staunch www.prolife.org.ph volunteer here.  Does not mean I have to be blind and not be an amateur social scientist.

I'd want my daughters to have a husband like my best friend.

[Dorothy]

the word "Cancer" and the word "Aids" are all encompassing word creations that strike fear in the people who believe them.

When many are just various symptoms and should be called by their varying symptoms only.

so "liver cancer" should just be liver with a tumor or cirrhotic liver.

or "kidney cancer" should be just kidney with a tumor and it is bleeding.

----

As for monogamy aspirations.  I'm with you there Dorothy.  I just report what I see on the ground on how monogamy is really practiced.

As for the monogamy in the USA, I'd rather call it "serial polygamy".

Where in other cultures, they practice "concurrent polygamy".

Hey, staunch www.prolife.org.ph volunteer here.  Does not mean I have to be blind and not be an amateur social scientist.

I'd want my daughters to have a husband like my best friend.

OK - I have some time at the end of the day here.

The way that the medical establishment categorizes symptoms into diseases is a big subject. Metastasis is what makes a tumor into cancer - the fact that it will grow and spread and take over and kill the person from malnutrition if not dealt with.  A benign tumor is very different than cancer to a doctor and to the person with the tumor. Cirrhosis of the liver is different than a tumor whether benign or not. The categories can be useful even when treating alternatively. How much time, how intense of a therapy, what kind of therapy etc. Cirrhosis would benefit more from different therapies than either kind of tumor. 

I would assume that the words cancer and AIDS instill fear because of the threat of death that is implied due to failure of the medical establishment to handle them effectively. The word cancer instills no fear in me any more. It's still a useful word though to describe something that is happening in the body.

HIV/AIDS also may have alternative therapies that would take away all fear associated with the microbe. I've never researched it though. The thing is that most people do not know of alternative cures for it and most people don't even have a decent diet. Those people no matter what you decide to call it will still be effected in a devastating way if the microbe is transferred to them.

Just saying that the words create fear doesn't change that having unprotected sex with multiple partners including prostitutes won't spread the microbe and create suffering. If you know of a way to keep people from getting AIDS or treating it with 100% effectiveness perhaps if you only had sex with people that you taught and prepared, that would be an option. If I knew cancer was sexually transmitted I could teach any potential partner how to cure it before having sex with them and provide them with the cures. Do you know ways of curing AIDS (or whatever you want to call it)? How about the other STDs?

Monogamy in the USA would be considered by me to be either plain old monogamy or serial monogamy. It is not polygamy because polygamy is not the social norm. When someone cheats on their partner it is not considered polygamy like in your culture where it is expected and accepted. Both cultures fail. Here people are not usually given the option of having a happy, responsible and liberated multi-partner choice.  People don't usually consider it to be an option so there is no accepted polyamous option that people can adopt. They have to do what Sabertooth is trying to do and build it up from scratch in an uphill battle against other people's expectations and assumptions. So much pain and suffering happens because people don't think that they have that option in an open and honest form. The opposite is true in your culture the way I see it from what you described. Because it is so accepted that men will have mistresses and prostitutes there's an easy out so a long-term monogamous relationship is thwarted. Long term monogamy necessitates withstanding the ups and downs and dry periods and necessitates partners having to work hard to overcome their issues and barriers to intimacy. Because our culture supports monogamy as a value there is a framework to support it.

How you described your culture does not sound to me like a good model for poly-amorous relationships to adopt in general. Perhaps my culture is a poor example of monogamous relationships too.

I pretty much copted out of all my family expectations, all the societal expectations and chose my own path. I think that if I were raised in your culture I would not have been able to get outside the societal parameters because there is no psychological framework for delving deeper to work through problems.

Personal gain financially including owning women and children and social stature has been the foundation of relationships for a very long time. How much money, stature, children etc. will this relationship give me. It's all part of the patriarchal ideal. This idea is new of forming relationships on different grounds. It's never been conceived of or a possibility before. It's beyond monogamy or polygamy or anything any culture in modern written history has come up with yet. That's what I'm into.

[eveheart]

I rather like the term serial polygamy. Serial monogamy is a contradiction of the original meaning of mono + gamy ("one + marriage"), although I concede that modern usage allows monogamy to mean "one marriage at a time." Taken literally, you cannot have a series of one marriage, but you can have a series of marriages (plural). Again, this clever usage is based on the original meaning of the Greek words mono, poly, and gamos, none of which convey at-the same-timeness.

[Dorothy]

It's interesting where words come from. I was referring to more how the words are used commonly in present usage. What I was trying to get at was that in our culture when someone is in a monogamous relationship and "cheats" it is not considered polygamy or even polyamorous because it is not an honest, conscious, culturally accepted choice usually. Often when the person is discovered having another relationship, the first relationship ends or there is at least discord. Polygamy in common usage is a marriage that includes more than 2 partners or one person married to more than one person. It does not infer secretiveness or jealousy as "cheating" in a monogamous relationship does. People that have had more than one marriage often still consider themselves to be monogamous, it's just that the first monogamous relationship with only one person ends and they move onto another monogamous relationship. Having extramarital affairs was always considered a grounds for divorce because the relationship is no long monogamous. In our culture we do not legally or culturally allow for other legal marriages other than monogamous ones. Polygamy is a term like marriage is in that they are legal contracts. Polyamorous would be the term related to monogamous because they are descriptive rather than legal in nature.

In this way in our culture there is no polygamy, only marriage as a legally binding sexual partnership. Monogamy and polyamoury to me denote conscious choice of kind of relationship. Our culture is based on a value system regarding monogamy as the ideal in movies, books, history. Very few people in our culture undertake polyamorous relationships. They just never commit at all having lots of short-term affairs or they cheat on the person that they are committed to. The idea of committing to or having a long-term relationship with more than one person and having deep sexual and emotional relationships and/or children with more than one person at a time doesn't fit into our present culturally accepted norms. We're a monogamy-based society here - and in the past this was especially true for women. In the history of the West men of means would have kept mistresses as the norm - but it was never talked about and it was hidden from the wives - but women were not to ever cheat on their husbands. Now cheating in the West goes both ways - but is still frowned upon and both men and women are expected to be faithful. It's becoming less of a double standard - but slowly. Cultural and legal standards for polyamory like what Sabertooth is trying to accomplish do not exist and polygamy is illegal. That's why I think we have serial monogamy here.

[eveheart]

... how the words are used commonly in present usage. What I was trying to get at was that in our culture when someone is in a monogamous relationship and "cheats" it is not considered polygamy or even polyamorous because it is not an honest, conscious, culturally accepted choice usually.... In this way in our culture ... etc.

You make it sound like there exists something called our culture which defines such things as norms of behavior and usage of vocabulary. Using your self-defined culture, you then proceed to pass judgment on diverse other cultures by deciding that deviation is dishonest, hurtful, and unacceptable.

I disagree with you. It's not all black and white. Within each system we have discussed on this thread, there is honesty, comfort, and acceptability, as well as dishonesty, hurt, and unacceptability. Even within one person, values flex, adapt, and change over time, which was a main point of Vitalis' interview.

[Dorothy]

Well OF COURSE Eve. We're obviously talking generalities and generalities are never solid truths about everyone. GS was giving me the low-down on how he sees his culture. I do judge having unprotected sex with many partners whatever culture it is in and how GS described his culture I see as creating hurt just like in my own culture. He seems to have accepted his culture completely. I'm questioning that acceptance. I also judge my own culture. I'm judging the generalities of all cultures that I have been made familiar with.

Do you think that GS and I shouldn't play amateur social scientists here - because that's what both of us have been doing.

I'll stop trying to make any generalities and bow out of that part of the conversation because I seem to be horribly misunderstood both by you and Jessica - at the least. I haven't done a very good job of expressing myself based upon the reactions I'm getting.

But Sabertooth - would you please continue posting on your situation? I'm fascinating in you you and your wive's experiment of going out of the box of your social conditioning. I'd also like to be of support and help in any way I can.

Onto other topics where I might be more able to make myself more clearly understood so as not to waste time - mine or anyone else's. I've been talking in generalities which is not nearly as useful to me as learning practical things here as I'm quite happy with my own little life outside the box. I gain pretty much nothing by spending my time sharing my views and even less if they are so thoroughly misunderstood.

I'll leave with the following:
Blessings to everyone that has the bravery to work their way out of their programming! And to everyone else to, but maybe not with an exclamation mark.

[wodgina]

Thanks Wodg.

Do you mean that you would be open to having more than one partner as long as it wasn't her or do you mean that she wouldn't want to have another partner involved?

Are you still with this woman?

Having place and work settled is important. Like what GS was talking about - Maslow's hierarchy of needs. Hard to really think too much about general societal trends or even others much when you don't have your own basic needs of shelter, food and safety handled.

With that set, do you feel like you're ready to start letting down some of the barriers yet?

Ok for me, yes and...wow you ask some pretty hard questions. You got enough dirt on me...

[Dorothy]

Ha! Yeah - I do ask some hard questions don't I? But if  it makes you feel any better I also ask them of myself.
We've all shared some pretty "dirty" and private things in this thread.
It's probably best to not use any of it against each other - so I'll be the first to promise intentionally to never do that.
 

[cherimoya_kid]

I also judge my own culture.

Prove it. 

As far as I can tell, you've completely, unabashedly bought in to monogamy.  Which is fine, but let's be honest about that fact. You are in no way, shape, or form viewing monogamy objectively. 

If you want to talk about the danger of STDs, we can do that.  However, when sex with other partners is open and accepted, the odds of having foolish unprotected sex go down, because you're more likely to make your sexual decisions using your common sense as well as your desire. 

If you want to talk about jealousy and hurt feelings, please be aware that those things are largely culturally-created. Yes, some people are more naturally jealous than others, but that's not the majority of what's happening when people get their feelings hurt because of cheating. The simple fact of deception is quite often the bigger issue.

[Dorothy]

Prove it. 

As far as I can tell, you've completely, unabashedly bought in to monogamy.  Which is fine, but let's be honest about that fact. You are in no way, shape, or form viewing monogamy objectively. 

If you want to talk about the danger of STDs, we can do that.  However, when sex with other partners is open and accepted, the odds of having foolish unprotected sex go down, because you're more likely to make your sexual decisions using your common sense as well as your desire. 

If you want to talk about jealousy and hurt feelings, please be aware that those things are largely culturally-created. Yes, some people are more naturally jealous than others, but that's not the majority of what's happening when people get their feelings hurt because of cheating. The simple fact of deception is quite often the bigger issue.

Um - you say that I have completely and unabashedly bought into monogamy. That is a lot to say about someone that you do not know and has not stated such. What I did say was that I have a monogamous relationship for the last 22 years because of one man and have spoken of it in a personal manner. I have not talked about my life before that nor have I stated (by far) that I think monogamy is better than all other possibilities.

People here seem to be judging ME and categorizing me in ways that I find a bit disturbing. There seems to be a lot of jumping to conclusions without reading all of what I said and there seems to be reading a lot into a few things that I have said with my main point being overlooked or ignored.

Of course I'm not completely objective - no one is. That's been the point I have been trying to make the whole time! We are cultural beings and I am questioning the buying into one's cultural programming - any culture. But no one wants to recognize when I say that over and over and over again.

In regard to STDs what we were talking about was a general acceptance in a particular culture of not practicing unprotected sex and with the males having as a standard many partners, often prostitutes with one person in particular here saying that they buy into that culture and that practice completely.

I was not talking about jealousy - I was talking about hurt primarily of other forms - mostly because of a  the double standard and not necessarily just emotional hurt.  But I'm not being well understood and I'm not sure more words are going to make it clear.

I have not lead a standard sexual life or the standard relationships of any kind over the course of my life that you seem to be fantasizing about me - but I'm getting really uncomfortable with being so misunderstood and incorrectly judged. It is impossible for me to prove anything to you.  It's hard in the typed word where only the words that get the most reaction are taken out and the rest not registered.

I've said that both cultures we were discussing fail from opposite directions. You don't believe me. So be it.

I guess reading that someone is happy in their monogamy yet questions their culture which is based on monogamy and reading that someone is questioning another person that is accepting their culture completely automatically registers as someone that has bought into their culture and is judging only other cultures. Questioning and judging my own culture might not compute to some people with having a monogamous relationship. But I am not that linear or simplistic. I have far from followed my cultural programming in my decision - even when deciding to be monogamous with Brian. Even being able to create the kind of long-term monogamous relationship that I have is far from what I was taught and programmed to do in my culture... if you could really know what I have experienced you would understand.

I'll say it one more time - maybe this time it will stick. I have been talking this entire time about getting out the boxes of cultural programming and not fitting ourselves into the boxes that we were taught to. We speaking in detail always for me as examples of that larger context. I can't prove that I mean what I say. Y'all can keep on ignoring it and saying I mean something else than what I do or you can believe me. I have no control over how you want to interpret what I say.

I just seem to have done a really bad job of getting my points across and I'm starting to think that it is a lost cause to try to make myself understood on this subject. So far, not one person has said anything that makes me believe that I have been even slightly understood. I think it might be time to give up.

[sabertooth]

Latest Update

I sacrificed a night of revelry at my brothers 4th of July party so that she could of out on her date. She had a good time and is happy with their relationship and claims she is in love. The only issue we seem to be having now is scheduling conflicts. She wants to go out again on Sunday, but I am going to a male pole dancing class Sunday afternoon. I want to dedicate the next few months to learning the art of the gigolo, so if my quest for free love doesn't work out , I can start charging for it.

What ever happened to the idea of free love?
Where have all the flower people gone?

[aLptHW4k4y]

sabertooth, for your deal to work out you both have to be with someone, so at the same time you're both full of the "love hormones" that are pumping in the first few months you fall in love with someone.
Otherwise jealousy will very likely ruin the relationship.
Just writing my thoughts.

[eveheart]

My dear Sabertooth, at my age I'm not so much in the market for a gigolo, but if you're ever out on the west coast, you can be my personal butcher in charge of "our little slaughterhouse" <deep sigh!> and I won't get jealous if you do some gigolo-ing on the side. 

[Dorothy]

Latest Update

I sacrificed a night of revelry at my brothers 4th of July party so that she could of out on her date. She had a good time and is happy with their relationship and claims she is in love. The only issue we seem to be having now is scheduling conflicts. She wants to go out again on Sunday, but I am going to a male pole dancing class Sunday afternoon. I want to dedicate the next few months to learning the art of the gigolo, so if my quest for free love doesn't work out , I can start charging for it.

What ever happened to the idea of free love?
Where have all the flower people gone?

The arts of the gigolo - good stuff to know whether you are charging or not!

This book might be of interest to you - and to men wanting to learn to please women in general:
http://www.amazon.com/Tao-Of-The-Gigolo-ebook/dp/B006IUNZNK

It sounds like all you you need is a good babysitter.

[CitrusHigh]

What ever happened to the idea of free love?
Where have all the flower people gone?

Lol I'm sayin!

JK, really though, they moved in to college dorms. Kids are learning about sex earlier and more thoroughly than previous generations. This can lead to open minded, savvy, young adults who are experimenting with sex earlier and not viewing it with the mores of earlier years. It may not be as simple as going to a commune for orgies like it was in the 60's, but free love is not only happening, it's going to get more common as we (r)evolve and  organized religion, politricks and cultural mores breakdown in to their graves where they belong.

Why were most 'gods' in most 'myths' polyamorous? Because that is our nature, to be in love with one another, and sex is often an expression of love/affection. And those 'gods' had basis in reality, even if the myths have misportrayed them in some respects.

[Dorothy]

A study in mythology might not be what you were wanting to point to as depicting our natures Thoth because jealousy is a common theme in western mythology. The lesson - be careful or you might be turned into a bull or some such.

[Alive]

That's right, times are changing - information is available through the internet without restriction from the religious and elite controlling classes, so your parents ingrained cultural / religious sexual repressions might not be copied so easily.

Just consider mainstream TV - as the Family Guy theme song says its violence at the movies and sex on TV. Just take Rock of Love - its not explicit so its allowed, morals not longer matter, just freedom of choice and the law.

I heard about a primitive tribe where the rules were that either Marriage partner could mate with anyone else, but the wife could not give food to any other males. So the man could encourage a woman to accept his advances by offering her meat, and then she would share it with her husband. I suppose the equivalent in modern days would be to replace the meat with money!

[goodsamaritan]

My perspective on the marriage laws, divorce culture, and contraceptive culture is to no longer allow, no longer encourage my children to get "married" under the government's stupidly changing laws that give zero benefit and may even harm my kids... put them at risk.

My wife's brother and her cousin are into this.  They are both committed family men without big brother government laws.

And since statistics show that 20 years from now the total fertility rate will be something like 1 child per woman in the city, it no longer makes sense to encourage my sons to be monogamous.  They will need a couple of women / "wives" to equal grandma... the true woman.  Will most probably scour the the provinces for healthy and willing women to be real "wives".  I'm looking forward to driving around and flying around looking for these candidates.

The above is my strategy for my sons.

For my daughters I'd want them to find marrying men, pro-life men.  And hopefully my daughters will step up to the pro-life culture.  Must keep mingling with pro-lifers.

Sabertooth,

If you are posting your cuckold adventures in one of those cuckold forums under a pseudonym, please send me a private message to your thread so I can read about it!