Author Topic: Vitalis on monogamy vs. polyamory  (Read 72169 times)

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CitrusHigh

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Re: Vitalis on monogamy vs. polyamory
« Reply #150 on: July 08, 2012, 11:09:31 am »
I didn't say though that the jealousy ascribed to them was part of our nature, only that polyamory definitely was, and I don't need the myths anyway since mammalian behaviour is replete with many forms of sexuality, gay, straight, orgies, manipulative sex, calming sex, bartering sex, and on and on. Animals like to get freaky in a big way, especially our closest genetic matches! If we were taking this raw paleo thing to its logical and practical conclusion, everyone should be fucking anytime anywhere for many different reasons. Which I'm totally cool with so long as I was not forced to participate (no force necessary, lol jk...sort of).

And furthermore, if jealousy IS part of our nature, that is if it's not something brought about by wrong thought, then so be it, the truth is the truth, ugly or pretty!

Offline Dorothy

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Re: Vitalis on monogamy vs. polyamory
« Reply #151 on: July 08, 2012, 11:16:11 am »
I didn't get married until it was financially and legally necessary. I don't even remember when it was - maybe 6 years ago or something. No wedding. It's just a piece of legal paper. We had our own private vows to each other at the beginning which meant a great deal more. Marriage was originally a way of passing ownership of a woman from one man to another - and the children of course. Then it became a way for the government to have control over the children and confiscate them - but now the government has that right to do that whether married or not - so that's all really just history. Today in this country marriage is necessary when navigating through the system. I stayed completely out of the system for the longest time, but after Brian was in the hospital and they nearly killed him it gave me a wake up call that I needed legal standing. We also were about to move into a house that I thought it would be best for me to be in co-ownership of. I gave up a lot and might end up with a number embedded in me (a psychic fear that I've had since childhood) by becoming a spoke in a cog I have little respect for but it also gave me other benefits. Some of the benefits were emotional in that both Brian and I had fear about marriage and what it would do to our sacred union and of letting the government and legalities in. Getting married released a lot of fears and made us delve deeper into recognizing and conquering programming. I really thought I'd never give into such an institution, but when I recognized that it had nothing to do with relationship and only to do with how the system registered us and something that was actually to our benefit in the world we are living in, it became a different kind of decision. 

My extended family understood and understands nothing of my ways or decisions. They accepted fully their culture. I'm not an extension of any of them and they could not program me to be like them and want what they wanted no matter how hard they all tried. So much disappointment and loss on their part for not wanting to know me for who and what I am rather what they wanted of me. I guess a lot of children turn out to be replicants of their parents just like so many of us can't deeply question the tenants of our cultures. I think the first word out of my mouth was probably a question. ;) My spirit couldn't be contained by parent or culture. I've never wanted a child to be a continuation of me or make up for what I couldn't accomplish myself - at least in this lifetime. I do remember all the lifetimes where I did do that. Didn't want to fall into that old cycle again. I'm totally into creating something new that I've never experienced before. What I have now is something that could never have been before in any other place or time that has come before. I hope that the younger generation will have more choices and opportunity for creating deep relationship rather than just superficial ones at the dictates of parents/teachers etc. - as our culture can tend to be generally superficial imho. I hope they can create a world that supports them well 

Offline Dorothy

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Re: Vitalis on monogamy vs. polyamory
« Reply #152 on: July 08, 2012, 11:19:42 am »
I didn't say though that the jealousy ascribed to them was part of our nature, only that polyamory definitely was, and I don't need the myths anyway since mammalian behaviour is replete with many forms of sexuality, gay, straight, orgies, manipulative sex, calming sex, bartering sex, and on and on. Animals like to get freaky in a big way, especially our closest genetic matches! If we were taking this raw paleo thing to its logical and practical conclusion, everyone should be fucking anytime anywhere for many different reasons. Which I'm totally cool with so long as I was not forced to participate (no force necessary, lol jk...sort of).

And furthermore, if jealousy IS part of our nature, that is if it's not something brought about by wrong thought, then so be it, the truth is the truth, ugly or pretty!

I wasn't making any point except about ancient mythology not only being about polyamorism but also having lots of jealousy in regard to it. I don't know if that's our nature or not. It's just a big part of mythology. I'm not sure if those ancient myths apply to paleo peoples or modern peoples really. I've studied them a lot though. Pretty fascinating stuff those collective unconscious patterns.

Offline wodgina

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Re: Vitalis on monogamy vs. polyamory
« Reply #153 on: July 08, 2012, 08:34:22 pm »
sabertooth, for your deal to work out you both have to be with someone, so at the same time you're both full of the "love hormones" that are pumping in the first few months you fall in love with someone.
Otherwise jealousy will very likely ruin the relationship.
Just writing my thoughts.

What if Saber meet's a woman who his wife knows is younger/hotter than her? female hypergamy in reverse and hyperdrive
« Last Edit: July 08, 2012, 08:45:49 pm by wodgina »
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Offline goodsamaritan

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Re: Vitalis on monogamy vs. polyamory
« Reply #154 on: July 08, 2012, 08:56:06 pm »
What if Saber meet's a woman who his wife knows is younger/hotter than her? female hypergamy in reverse and hyperdrive

Guaranteed Sabertooth will meet younger hotter babes between now and 50 years.
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Offline wodgina

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Re: Vitalis on monogamy vs. polyamory
« Reply #155 on: July 08, 2012, 08:59:29 pm »
Guaranteed Sabertooth will meet younger hotter babes between now and 50 years.


I would bet on it.
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Offline Dorothy

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Re: Vitalis on monogamy vs. polyamory
« Reply #156 on: July 09, 2012, 06:40:08 am »
I'm sure Sabertooth is going to meet exactly who he wants to meet! The real problem might be when he meets that woman that is his intellectual equal and supports him in his projects AND is a great sexual mate for him. He is a real hottie himself so there won't be any trouble for him finding hot women - but that won't necessarily be the most threatening if something is going to be threatening at all to his wife.

My husband was a photographer surrounded by the most beautiful women in the world, often half naked and available to him as he is a very handsome man - and yet he chose me. He said that he loves my "ugly mug" (not his words - mine).... he says more accurately that he "loves looking at my face" because it radiates through it who I am. It's not always about who is the hottest and youngest. Men have just as many emotional, intellectual and spiritual needs as women do.

Offline goodsamaritan

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Re: Vitalis on monogamy vs. polyamory
« Reply #157 on: July 09, 2012, 07:47:01 am »
Men have just as many emotional, intellectual and spiritual needs as women do.

With those 4 cute babies between him and his wife... meeting other hot women are just playthings... his wife still remains on top at #1.
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Offline Dorothy

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Re: Vitalis on monogamy vs. polyamory
« Reply #158 on: July 09, 2012, 07:57:24 am »
Maybe, maybe not GS. Here in the US people divorce and re-marry all the time no matter how many children there are. If he meets a woman that meets all his needs/desires that he never wants to be away from and she gets pregnant then he will have children in both camps. Men here spend time with their children and not their x-wives all the time. Women don't stay number 1 necessarily because they have children here. She might not even stay number 2. People still have amiable divorces where they both take care of the children without living with each other. That's why here the emotional aspect of his relationship with another woman would be biggest possible threat to his wife. Casual sex won't be enough to pull someone away permanently with their open marriage. Children don't keep couples together here like they do in your culture so that might not be the case with Sabertooth and he might not even know now what he would do if he were to meet someone he wants to be with 24 hours a day.

Offline goodsamaritan

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Re: Vitalis on monogamy vs. polyamory
« Reply #159 on: July 09, 2012, 09:05:58 am »
Let's get the Brazilians in this conversation to make it more fun:

Single In Brazil: "F" for Fidelity

"I accept infidelity... just wash it honey..."
"Men need to spread sperm..."
"They love to go and come back..."
"Women of the world wake up..."

They're more open about the reality of men in Rio in this interview.
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Offline Dorothy

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Re: Vitalis on monogamy vs. polyamory
« Reply #160 on: July 09, 2012, 09:17:49 am »
It ends with:
Just enjoy - don't fall in love.

It's about where to go if you are single and want to party. Rio is the perfect place for that - apparently.

I have a hard time with stereotyping all men just like I do in stereotyping all women and saying that cultural programming is some basic reality about men.

 

Offline sabertooth

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Re: Vitalis on monogamy vs. polyamory
« Reply #161 on: July 09, 2012, 10:56:06 am »
With those 4 cute babies between him and his wife... meeting other hot women are just playthings... his wife still remains on top at #1.


Having 4 kids together makes her my number 1. Seeing her over the years grow as a dedicated mother and steady lover has earned her top position in my harem.

She is playing some kind of head game with me right now and wont tell me her true feelings about any possible jealousy. She pretends to have a devil may care attitude, and seems to think it is just a matter of time before I replace her, while giving the impression that it wouldn't bother her as long as she still had her lover.

No matter what happens , I made a vow to see to it that I live with my children and help the mother raise them, no matter what. Even if that means having to miss out on some ethereal out of this world mistress.

She has been making great progress in her relationship, and the guy is now professing his feelings, he says he cant live without her and has already made plans to introduce her to his mother as his girlfriend. Sometime during the dinner conversation they will have to tell his mother about me and my wife's four children. All the problems with are arrangement arise from having to deal with other peoples reactions. There are people in my family who talk negatively about us and refuse to show any signs of acceptance for our choice.

Whether or not it is the"right" choice is up to the two of us to decide. There have been some noticeable changes that have been both positive and negative. Seeing her get so comfortable and loving toward another man does affect me and seems to raise my drive, I have also noticed that I spend more time prowling about, looking for reasons to go out and am a bit obsessed with thoughts about other women. Sometimes its a bit too much, and drives me to emotional exhaustion. Earlier today I made an arrangement for my lady friend to accompany me to a Buddist group for next Sunday. Then ran off to take a male pole dancing class. It was a lot of fun and there are some mighty fine looking instructors! Then I ran out and found my other lady friend on her break and chatted with her a bit before breaking out some pole dancing moves on a light pole. There seems to be much more confidence lately.

 Its funny doing all that running around only to wind up in the loving embrace of the number one. 
« Last Edit: July 09, 2012, 11:03:41 am by sabertooth »
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Offline Dorothy

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Re: Vitalis on monogamy vs. polyamory
« Reply #162 on: July 09, 2012, 11:06:07 am »
Sabertooth, have you thought about, talked about when you have children with other women? Have you figured out what would happen with the children that your wife might have with her boyfriend? Do you have some kind of commitment between you for her to always be number one no matter how many children you have with another or what feelings might arise? I'd imagine that it would be hard to predict.

Too bad people are being difficult - but it makes sense with their social programming. It's not much different than eating raw meat in a way. You do the best you can and just go on with what you know to be right for you.

Offline Hanna

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Re: Vitalis on monogamy vs. polyamory
« Reply #163 on: July 10, 2012, 12:46:18 am »
Sabertooth - I like your experiment!
I don´t know about other countries, but here in Germany women usually seperate from their men, and not the other way round. Women, by nature, are much more selective than men when it comes to sex. So if they don´t feel attracted to or don´t like their man any longer, they will separate (or at least don´t like to have sex with him any longer), given, of course, that they are economically independent from him. It may even be a torture to them if they have to have sex with a certain man just because of his money or just because they are married to him.

Offline aLptHW4k4y

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Re: Vitalis on monogamy vs. polyamory
« Reply #164 on: July 10, 2012, 01:15:38 am »
Hanna -- yes, that's why they should have sex before you get married. They marry and then they realize they aren't attracted, wtf?? Waste of time for both!

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Re: Vitalis on monogamy vs. polyamory
« Reply #165 on: July 10, 2012, 01:23:34 am »
Dorothy, do you have kids?

Offline Hanna

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Re: Vitalis on monogamy vs. polyamory
« Reply #166 on: July 10, 2012, 01:40:02 am »
Alpha: The problem is that women may be attracted to a man at the time they marry him, but aren´t attracted to him any longer after some time. So they won´t have sex with him any longer (it they are free to choose!) or separate.
Free love is fine, but free love could mean that some men will have even less sex than they have in our current culture (with marriages and the like as "institutionalized prostitution").

Offline goodsamaritan

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Re: Vitalis on monogamy vs. polyamory
« Reply #167 on: July 10, 2012, 01:56:34 am »
Alpha: The problem is that women may be attracted to a man at the time they marry him, but aren´t attracted to him any longer after some time. So they won´t have sex with him any longer (it they are free to choose!) or separate.
Free love is fine, but free love could mean that some men will have even less sex than they have in our current culture (with marriages and the like as "institutionalized prostitution").

And this is why i plan that my boys do not get married... there is no benefit. Just live in or live out.  And why monogamy doesnt make sense.

And be well aware that if they want children, they go and get partners who want children as well.

Sabertooth and wife just love children... Real sex!
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CitrusHigh

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Re: Vitalis on monogamy vs. polyamory
« Reply #168 on: July 10, 2012, 02:23:15 am »
Free love is fine, but free love could mean that some men will have even less sex than they have in our current culture (with marriages and the like as "institutionalized prostitution").

Frequency of sex was a touchy subject in my last relationship. Ideally would have been twice a day or more when we were together, and I don't find this unreasonable because we would be apart for a week at a time while she was flying trips all over the country(pilot). In our case she had sexual abuse issues and guys who have cheated on her in the past so even though we had great, mutually pleasurable sex when we did, I feel she was holding back, and she agrees, because of her abuse and trust issues, which she has yet to deal with, and also her former mormon life and the guilt that produces.

All this is to say, when society grows and people have rid themselves of disease and limiting beliefs, it will probably be like lots of shagging going on everywhere, because everyone will feel happy and satisfied and confident and that makes people horny IMO. It does me anyway! lol

And we can see this in our closest relatives the chimps AND in lots of 'primitive' tribes. Not saying that sex is always healthy (I'm thinking of a tribe in south america that had orgies and involved young (12yrs) children, or probably just girls), but in our little utopia it would be.

A lot of peeps are cynical and balk at the idea of a utopia, but that is precisely where we're headed. There might be some growing pains but we WILL get there, 100th monkey and all....or rather, the relative 100th human. That is why we need everyone to be involved in raising their consciousness, because as soon as it hits a tipping point, the rest of the species will catch on!

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Re: Vitalis on monogamy vs. polyamory
« Reply #169 on: July 10, 2012, 03:55:35 am »
Alpha: The problem is that women may be attracted to a man at the time they marry him, but aren´t attracted to him any longer after some time. So they won´t have sex with him any longer (it they are free to choose!) or separate.
Free love is fine, but free love could mean that some men will have even less sex than they have in our current culture (with marriages and the like as "institutionalized prostitution").
Yeah, the problem is, as goodsamaritan has said, we're not programmed well for monogamy. Socially yes, but hormonally not really. Only if there's really really good match a long term attachment will develop and everyone will be happy.
And that's why people should live together for a few years at least, before deciding to go further.. it will prevent a lot of headaches, divorces, stress and "women deciding all of a sudden they are not attracted".

Offline Alive

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Re: Vitalis on monogamy vs. polyamory
« Reply #170 on: July 10, 2012, 05:34:36 am »
Yes aLpt, it would mean that the rich and very attractive (dominant, funny, strong, handsome, smart, cunning or whatever...) men would be getting all the sex, so for the men there would be winners and losers.

A friend who lived on a commune felt uneasy when she noticed so many of the different womens children all looked like one of the dominant males... How would their partners feel about this?

With contraception though the outcome of the union can be altered to prevent pregnancy, so could the participants enjoy their primal brains following the age old script without the hassles of more children.

GS wouldn't like this, but most people appreciate that we earthlings need to keep our childbirth rate down to be able to be a sustainable species without triggering painful disruptions from even more over population.

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Re: Vitalis on monogamy vs. polyamory
« Reply #171 on: July 10, 2012, 08:07:03 am »
Yes aLpt, it would mean that the rich and very attractive (dominant, funny, strong, handsome, smart, cunning or whatever...) men would be getting all the sex, so for the men there would be winners and losers.

getting all the real / impregnation sex...
the support men get contraceptive sex...

A friend who lived on a commune felt uneasy when she noticed so many of the different womens children all looked like one of the dominant males... How would their partners feel about this?

Where was this commune?  Link to such communes?

With contraception though the outcome of the union can be altered to prevent pregnancy, so could the participants enjoy their primal brains following the age old script without the hassles of more children.

GS wouldn't like this, but most people appreciate that we earthlings need to keep our childbirth rate down to be able to be a sustainable species without triggering painful disruptions from even more over population.

I understand the point of view of the belief in overpopulation.  And I thank those people willing to extinguish their own bloodlines so that some of us reproductive people can inherit the earth.

But if you look at history like the Roman Empire of 0-200 AD, this contraception / abortive culture did what today's people in the 21st century are doing now.  After that period of Roman Contraceptivity, some people had to inherit the earth... and these were the non-contraceptive peoples... why if you look at the succeeding Roman Catholic teachings and the new 6th or 7th century Islam... were written by those very reproductive and calling for successful reproduction strategies such as polygamy.

It will be a repeat performance on the 21st to the 23rd century.  All we reproductive people can do is fight with every f*ck to survive a contraceptive depopulation norm.

This is survival mode times, self preservation of blood lines times.
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Offline Alive

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Re: Vitalis on monogamy vs. polyamory
« Reply #172 on: July 10, 2012, 09:17:19 am »
GS, the comune was in Takaka, Golden Bay, NZ:




Offline sabertooth

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Re: Vitalis on monogamy vs. polyamory
« Reply #173 on: July 10, 2012, 11:32:37 am »
Sabertooth, have you thought about, talked about when you have children with other women? Have you figured out what would happen with the children that your wife might have with her boyfriend? Do you have some kind of commitment between you for her to always be number one no matter how many children you have with another or what feelings might arise? I'd imagine that it would be hard to predict.

Too bad people are being difficult - but it makes sense with their social programming. It's not much different than eating raw meat in a way. You do the best you can and just go on with what you know to be right for you.
To answer your questions

1)We tell our older children about the other people we adore. I tell my son when I am going to visit my girlfriends, and that I like so and so's mom. Then he goes behind my back and tells mama everything. We are all about positive reinforcement, If you don't want your teenage daughter to run off with some punk, then first of all, you don't fill them with prejudice and fear of unsavory people . Instead you start pointing out people and behavior that are admirable, when they are still young. If you know a cute couple that have a loving relationship, then tell the children out loud about what a cute couple those two make. A little positive conditioning can do a world of good.

2)We are using measures to prevent pregnancy, and the boyfriend is adamant about not wanting children.

3)The third question is difficult for me to answer.  I promised myself to be their for my children no matter what. There are no plans for impregnating other women at this time. Life has got me so strapped for money and time that it just doesn't seem like a good Idea. Then again you can never say never, circumstances do change, but it will take an absolute goddess, to take me away from my first Litter and brood mare.

I don't blame people for not accepting polyamory, many people have identified with monogamy as a virtue and gear their lives around attainment of the idealistic relationships. Many people settle for the acceptable norm because its the path of least resistance. Many people do not like to be confronted with ideas suggesting that other people don't have to live and love as they do. The idea that ones spouse is harboring sexual feelings for others upsets the monogamous type. So, one must view such issues with compassion and understanding. Voyeristically flaunting your wide open sexuality in a society of people who have chosen monogamy as the ideal, is a bit rude and inconsiderate. Just as it would be inconsiderate to go into a vegans home with a slab of raw beef and start chowing down.

Sabertooth - I like your experiment!
I don´t know about other countries, but here in Germany women usually seperate from their men, and not the other way round. Women, by nature, are much more selective than men when it comes to sex. So if they don´t feel attracted to or don´t like their man any longer, they will separate (or at least don´t like to have sex with him any longer), given, of course, that they are economically independent from him. It may even be a torture to them if they have to have sex with a certain man just because of his money or just because they are married to him.



It seems natural for women to be highly selective with who they let breed them. Such selective breeding is in part responsible for the advancement of our species. The laws of attraction have gotten a lot more complicated in the modern age. Women may have had  a much easier time discerning positive attributes in a time where men were measured by their more primal abilities and not by the industrial aged materialistic criteria. Now a days what makes for a worthy mate in the urban jungle, seems so ambiguous and complicated that its no wonder so many people go sexually schizophrenic, and are never able to keep up healthy relationships.

 It all boils down to the fact that we have been separated from our tribal nature and most people no longer grow up in complete communities, where relationships within small close nit groups of people can arise naturally and are able to grow and mature in less complecated environments. One must give modern humans credit for being able to adapt and persist under a wide range of circumstances and still be reasonably happy and healthy.

Those who have been born and raised outside of the range of healthy environments will just have adapt to the modern jungle, or die tring. Sometimes its not pretty, but the paleo world was often very cruel as well. Each individual must forge onward and learn to play the game of love without an official rule book to go by. If you are lucky then you may find small pockets of people within the swarm that will guide, accept and love you along the way. We all could use a special someone who will help us play this game without keeping score or taking things to seriously. Someone who will let us cheat on occasion or at least bend the rules, but also someone to stop us from going too far and harming ourselves or others.

Alpha: The problem is that women may be attracted to a man at the time they marry him, but aren´t attracted to him any longer after some time. So they won´t have sex with him any longer (it they are free to choose!) or separate.
Free love is fine, but free love could mean that some men will have even less sex than they have in our current culture (with marriages and the like as "institutionalized prostitution").

Peoples taste do change. Its not unreasonable to think that someone would want something different after many years of the same thing over and over. If men were not compelled to put the shackles of wedlock on their women then in general they would probably enjoy a much greater quality and variety of sexual experience. I have let my mate date this man, whom I had chosen, for over two months and she still enjoys putting out for me regularly.

Aldous Huxleys wife helped him get other women regularly. She thought he would get bored with just having her all the time, so she encouraged her friends to be with him.

My goal is to cultivate a deeper awareness of these primal drives. and with the permission of my brood mare, to seek out a mate that is willing to take part in a some of my S)experiments.
A man who makes a beast of himself, forgets the pain of being a man.

Offline Hanna

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Re: Vitalis on monogamy vs. polyamory
« Reply #174 on: July 10, 2012, 01:23:12 pm »
Yes aLpt, it would mean that the rich and very attractive (dominant, funny, strong, handsome, smart, cunning or whatever...) men would be getting all the sex, so for the men there would be winners and losers.

but women also appreciate to be loved and want to feel that their potential partner cares for them, so I don´t think that few men would get all the sex.
Regarding money / rich men, there will never be true sexual freedom for women if few men have all the money and women have to prostitute themselves for these rich men simply to survive or be able to feed their children (as seems to be the case in the Phillipines).

 

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