Vitalis on monogamy vs. polyamory

[wodgina]

but women also appreciate to be loved and want to feel that their potential partner cares for them, so I don´t think that few men would get all the sex.
Regarding money / rich men, there will never be true sexual freedom for women if few men have all the money and women have to prostitute themselves for these rich men simply to survive or be able to feed their children (as seems to be the case in the Phillipines).

Men have always been the ones who have held resources. It's our bargaining chip..you girls have the beauty. What is happening now in germany and the west is not normal. Plenty of men have never had true sexual freedom as most have never procreated.

[sabertooth]

Men didn't traditionally hold resources as a bargaining chip, the procured resources and then willingly handed them over to the matriarchs who used these resources so that they could make a home in which everyone lived. The roles of men and women complemented each other. Now with the idea of equality,meaning women have to play the same roles as men, and also reproduce, the complementary relationship has been altered. Men now feel more compelled to use resources as a bargaining chip, and to try to corner females into marital bondage as the only means by which he can have a home and be a part of a family. A man without any material prospects is a loser in today's world.

The system has made bastards of us all.

[Dorothy]

To answer your questions

1)We tell our older children about the other people we adore. I tell my son when I am going to visit my girlfriends, and that I like so and so's mom. Then he goes behind my back and tells mama everything. We are all about positive reinforcement, If you don't want your teenage daughter to run off with some punk, then first of all, you don't fill them with prejudice and fear of unsavory people . Instead you start pointing out people and behavior that are admirable, when they are still young. If you know a cute couple that have a loving relationship, then tell the children out loud about what a cute couple those two make. A little positive conditioning can do a world of good.

You misunderstood my question entirely - but that's ok. I wasn't asking about your conversations with your children. Thanks for sharing it anyway.

There seems to be a general acceptance of sex as only a first and second chakra activity where choices regarding relationships are premised on those energies and goals alone and that raw paleos in relationship should be about survival and physiological urges and reproduction without the possibility of making decisions from a different view entirely - whether monogamous or polyamorous. That's to be expected I guess since almost all people do make decisions from that place. Making decisions not from culture, programming or reaction - how I see things - I haven't even been able to vaguely approach here and doubt that I will ever be able to.

I've come to doubt that I could affect anyone's perceptions as my ideas are too radical.
Blessings to you all with your experiments and/or accepted roles and I wish you all the best.

[goodsamaritan]

What are your radical ideas?

[sabertooth]

Thanks for your kind wishes.

Thats the point Dorothy) its impossible for anyone to possible know how to approach these issues. There is an inseparable duality. Culture and nature both are constantly battling it out in the world of human relationship. Its something that will never be resolved as long as the great race is still going on.

I am tring to build a personal view from the prospective of what will ultimatly lead me to living the healthiest most full fulling life possible. While at the same time leaving  behind  people that have been wholly uplifted by what I had put into this life.

If more people could share thier own views in detail ,right here, then we all could have a greater perspective on the subject.

I often am guilty of putting out ideas about human relationships, from a more paleo-centric, evolution of the species point of view , which would seem radical to most of the civilized world.

Ideas that encourage one to still live in accordance with our primal drives , can be very disturbing and harmful to the societal structures of today's world. In most of society you would be misunderstood. What I want to preach about and encourage others to do is to be pragmatic. Get to know your yourself from the same open minded perspective that has brought you to this Raw forum. The jungle is calling its creatures to action.  Learn more fully about what the call of nature within your heart and the consequences of ignoring its needs. Focus your intelligence on of finding ways to fulfill those basic needs and encourage others to follow by example.

[cherimoya_kid]

There seems to be a general acceptance of sex as only a first and second chakra activity where choices regarding relationships are premised on those energies and goals alone and that raw paleos in relationship should be about survival and physiological urges and reproduction without the possibility of making decisions from a different view entirely - whether monogamous or polyamorous. That's to be expected I guess since almost all people do make decisions from that place. Making decisions not from culture, programming or reaction - how I see things - I haven't even been able to vaguely approach here and doubt that I will ever be able to.

I've come to doubt that I could affect anyone's perceptions as my ideas are too radical.

Radical?  No offense, but you're not shaking the earth of at least me, and quite probably several others here. 

There's other levels above and beyond the chakras you are talking about.  Not that you don't have a point, but there are points beyond the ones you are making. 

It always entertains me when I see young Western men struggling for freedom from the sexually-repressed, painfully self-denying paradigm of Western spirituality, only to end up berating themselves for losing semen during sleep/masturbation/sex, because it "weakens" them spiritually or physically.  Meanwhile, a good raw paleo diet is far more powerful for health than trying and failing to retain semen.

Sure, there's a time and place for denial.  But that time is not always, and the place is not everywhere.  Common sense comes into play here, Dorothy, and, respectfully, I think sometimes your extremes take you outside of common sense.  That's not an attack, just an observation.  I myself am guilty of extremes in these areas as well.  The difference is that I am, ultimately, for various reasons,  more pragmatic, I think.

Again, that's not an attack, just an observation.  Remember, you have to prove the things you say here.  We are not, in many cases, as gullible/uninformed as the average person. We ARE, in many cases, especially the mods, jerky know-it-alls.  However, that can be useful, because it takes a know-it-all to actually get to the truth, sometimes.

[CitrusHigh]

Great post Cheri!

[Dorothy]

I haven't made my personal viewpoint just bantered back and forth - nor am I going to in such an environment. How can you judge if they make common sense or not when the points were never made? That to me makes no common sense. You don't even have a CLUE what I think/feel/experience or my perspective yet you say nonsense about men losing semen - that has NOTHING at all to do with anything I was referring to. So what if men masturbate? I don't judge that. Do you? Why bring that up? Are you talking about another discussion I had explaining tantra to Adora? That's something completely different and only one way of looking at things and totally irrelevant.

This thread is a waste of my time/energy and continuing to converse with me over something not expressed is a waste of other people's time obviously since there is no interest or openness.

Attack all you will, or observe, make up things, twist my words into what you want them to mean or whatever you want to call it. I'd prefer it if you stopped though and just went on with your conversations without me without attacking, judging, observing any more.

If you want to continue, please know that I am not going to be reading it - so you can dis (dismiss, disrespect, disparage) me to everyone else instead if you like, but no more of this for me.

Thoth, I'm surprised. I thought you were an open-minded kind of person in general.

[goodsamaritan]

Dorothy, what are your radical ideas?

[CitrusHigh]

Sorry dorothy, any perceived slight was not.

I was actually specifically referring to the part about losing energy from orgasm, as far as I'm concerned that is utter bollocks (lol!) the universe is unlimited energy (especially if you buy what N. Haramein(sp?) is selling, that the entire universe is in each proton or whatever) and I've always found that claim a contradiction and absurdity. And like Cheri said, this diet goes a long way in providing people with ample if not excess energy, subtle or otherwise.

I respect you a lot dorothy and though I don't always agree (obviously, who does 100%) I always appreciate discussing with you!

[goodsamaritan]

I like reading about radical ideas, so please share the radical ideas.

[sabertooth]

Periodic Orgasm suppression can have some interesting effects. If one goes long enough without ejaculating you can become hyper sexually sensitive. Then when you do finally release, it can leave you with a loved up feeling that last all day.

I'm an advocate of developing a sexual rhythm in accordance with your partners cycles. During ovulation we may make love a couple times a day for three or four days, then take a couple day break, before entering into a medium drive cycle of sex every other day. Then during menstruation we often have a 4 to five day period with no sex. Every month the viscous cycle more or less repeats itself. This arrangement provides a fair amount of satisfaction without leading to sexual exhaustion.

[CitrusHigh]

Yeah, and I'm not saying that suppression can't or doesn't have those effects, only that you are not 'blowing' your chi at orgasm, or if you are, you can actually redirect that energy back in to yourself, or in to where ever you want. But again, the universe is an infinite pool of energy, free for the tapping.

[Hanna]

Men have always been the ones who have held resources. It's our bargaining chip..

The point is that in paleo times most men held (or were able to procure) valuable material resources, not just a few or some men as in today´s capitalistic or class societies. If many or most men hold valuable material resources, women do have a broad choice between different men and therefore enjoy a fair amount of freedom in their choice (meaning they don´t have to look predominantly for material resources when it comes to mating, because almost every man is able to procure the material resources necessary for his children to survive and get a strong social position in their tribe). I would bet that there was much more social equality in paleo times than there is in today´s western societies. Just look at HGs!

Plenty of men have never had true sexual freedom as most have never procreated.

What gives you this idea? In my parents´, grandparents´ etc. generations, almost every man had at least two children.

[Neone]

What is sex about to you guys? Dicks inside of Vaginas? Orgasms?

And I personally have found that money is just a means to new experiences. I think a lot of other people think that money will give them the means to experiences that will make them happy, when really its what you take from your experiences that make you happy (or sad).  If you cant be hapy with nothing, then you're only going to be distracted from your unhappiness with everything.

[sabertooth]

The invention of money has had a profound effect on human sexuality. It has changed our whole system of values. Money has become a virtue to be sought after at the expense of our obligations to personal relations. Money men will accumulate great wealth and attract worthy mates with promises of comfort and security, but in order for that man to maintain his wealth he will have to dedicate a much larger portion of his day to working away from his family than paleo man did. This skews the whole social dynamic, and in my opinion can lead to perversity.

I agree with Hana about how in paleo times there wasn't this great stratification of wealth, and so people chose mates based on more subtle humanistic qualities. Money materialism and freakanomics have in some ways already separated many people from their better natures, and have perverted the sexual selection process. The working poor, which constitute a great majority of modern industrial society, are especially afflicted, because they have to dedicate many hours of employment just to get by, while at the same time shipping their kids off to institutions to be made into productive workers. They simple haven't the time, wherewithal or guidance to develop into the kind of romantic, compassionate humanistic, sensualist that would be an ideal lover. So much real life living , loving, and learning falls by the wayside, in our service to money and machines.

[cherimoya_kid]

I haven't made my personal viewpoint just bantered back and forth - nor am I going to in such an environment. How can you judge if they make common sense or not when the points were never made? That to me makes no common sense. You don't even have a CLUE what I think/feel/experience or my perspective

Unless you say otherwise, your stuff just sounds like "old wine in new bottles".  Quite frankly, you sound like someone with little awareness of other cultures.

Basically, you sound like a white-bread, suburban American who has a little secondhand experience, via books, of Eastern spirituality.  OTOH, there are a number of cultures that practice polyamory, minimize pair-bonding, or have similar relationship systems.

Your world seems way smaller than the actual, factual one.  That doesn't make you bad, but it doesn't put you in a position to make unfounded, unproven pronouncements, either, and expect to have them lauded.

I'm sincerely not trying to be mean, but you're just going to have to support what you assert.  If that's asking too much...

[wodgina]

The point is that in paleo times most men held (or were able to procure) valuable material resources, not just a few or some men as in today´s capitalistic or class societies. If many or most men hold valuable material resources, women do have a broad choice between different men and therefore enjoy a fair amount of freedom in their choice (meaning they don´t have to look predominantly for material resources when it comes to mating, because almost every man is able to procure the material resources necessary for his children to survive and get a strong social position in their tribe). I would bet that there was much more social equality in paleo times than there is in today´s western societies. Just look at HGs!

What gives you this idea? In my parents´, grandparents´ etc. generations, almost every man had at least two children.

only 20% of men have passed on their genes and 80% of women. Some science article I read. Makes sense too.

How do you know their children were theirs? alpha for genes beta to bring home the bacon.

[wodgina]

I haven't made my personal viewpoint just bantered back and forth - nor am I going to in such an environment. How can you judge if they make common sense or not when the points were never made? That to me makes no common sense. You don't even have a CLUE what I think/feel/experience or my perspective yet you say nonsense about men losing semen - that has NOTHING at all to do with anything I was referring to. So what if men masturbate? I don't judge that. Do you? Why bring that up? Are you talking about another discussion I had explaining tantra to Adora? That's something completely different and only one way of looking at things and totally irrelevant.

This thread is a waste of my time/energy and continuing to converse with me over something not expressed is a waste of other people's time obviously since there is no interest or openness.

Attack all you will, or observe, make up things, twist my words into what you want them to mean or whatever you want to call it. I'd prefer it if you stopped though and just went on with your conversations without me without attacking, judging, observing any more.

If you want to continue, please know that I am not going to be reading it - so you can dis (dismiss, disrespect, disparage) me to everyone else instead if you like, but no more of this for me.

Thoth, I'm surprised. I thought you were an open-minded kind of person in general.

Why choose Buffy?

[Alive]

wodgina, I am sure more than 20% of men manage to pass on their genes! This sounds like a load of rubbish 

Regarding my own situation I am happy to say there are a number of factors that are improving relations between my wife and I, one important one is that I have changed from smoking your typical modern cannabis which just has THC, to a variety with significant (hopefully 50%) amounts of CBD. Frequent consumption of THC twisted my thoughts in many ways - such as ruminating on past 'learnings' (blaming wife for spending too much money), dreaming about inventions I don't need, and excessive thinking about sex - plus  made me lazy & tired, and triggered junk food munchies. Now with the CBD balanced cannabis I feel more in the present, more energised and happy to learn and move on from negative past experiences, and most of all to be very thankful for what I have - family, home, friends, health, good job etc. Also I am now feeling that sex is really not all that important anyway - the best thing about sex has been creating my two children, and two is enough for me.

We have also been under a lot of financial pressure from a big earthquake 16 moths ago, and now that we can see our business will recover over the next year and start to make money rather than just spend it this is improving.

Plus raw paleo diet is giving me more physical and mental stamina so I am better able to contribute to my family.

The result is that I am happy and being nice to my wife and she is appreciative - she is starting to be happy with some physical contact, so I will most probably be getting lucky one of these days soon. I will go to the herbalist and see what they have to help increase her sexy hormones.

Dorothy - re your comment that my wife is probably staying late at the office to have an affair, well she doesn't work in an office and I am definite that she really just doesn't care for sex at the moment. She has periodic best friends, and the last two were women where after daily intense phone calls discussing their common animal breeding and showing obsessions the friendships exploded. She now has a male best friend and they often spend time together discussing business, or she goes to his place for dinner, chat and drinks with his half dozen mostly male international travellers staying with him. When on THC I would get really paranoid when she stayed out late that she was screwing him, or would crash while driving home drunk, but now I see both of these are very unlikely as she doesn't like him that way and is careful to get sober enough to drive, and is a slow careful driver.

GS - the community I mentioned were a bunch of drop-out stoners, so that would go some way to explaining what was going on there (too much THC)!

Next step = stop watching internet porn!

[wodgina]

Alive? really?

anyways I was wrong it's 40% of Males 80% of females historically. Makes you wonder why we busted our arses as working bees when we could of fought back, or sat on the couch playing video games or go surfing.

 

[Alive]

I like your avitar wodgina, that looks like fun - do you kayak?

[wodgina]

yep a a lot. Some nice paddling around your area I have been thinking about doing the Coast to Coast.

[Alive]

So if I am now chatting to wodgina off M vs P topic is it better to send him a personal message or to start a new subject in off topic?

wodgina - you must be fit. My wife and I did the two day individuals coast to coast about 14 years ago, before children. The Wiamakarari river is a fun paddle, especially the gorge where the pressure waves and eddies add to interest. Its a very beautiful environment.

Do you prefer racing, sea, or white water kayaking?

[goodsamaritan]

Of course you know you are currently off topic then you find a smooth way to get back on topic.